From watching that Youtube vid I can’t say I have a problem with what Moz said (and yes, I do think that he was being sarcastic!).
What’s more disturbing is the furore this comment has provoked! I don’t reckon Moz was miffed at Kylie, but was having a go at the people who select OBE candidates (royal hatred and all that jazz, although I can’t imagine for a moment that the queen herself selects them!).
I don’t have a problem with Kylie; she does what she does, and she does it well- sings catchy, popular songs, and there is definitely a need for that in some people’s lives. Also, judging from chart successes etc, she appears to be more popular than Moz. As (in my opinion) there is no objective way of judging musical greatness- it is an emotional phenomenon rather than a logical one (within reason), why not go for the popular option? Kylie is seen as a ‘National Treasure’ by many (possibly largely the media, but it seems that people cannot think for themselves so they probably agree).
Re the ‘slag’ issue- Kylie appears to be a business-savvy lady. What people need to realise is that SOCIETY is to blame! (Uh-oh, here she goes...) It is society (i.e. the media) that dictates how women should behave, and how they should portray themselves. The message is: if you ain’t pretty, you won’t get anywhere. There are comparatively few women who have had success in the music business by talent alone. I’m f***ing sick of turning on the music channels and having tits’n’ass shoved in my face. I’m sick of seeing images of skinny attractive women plastered over the media. Yes, part of it is my own insecurity that makes me feel like shit about this, but having these pictures rammed in my face doesn’t help my self-esteem.* And I don’t consider myself to be particularly attractive, but I know I have other skills and if society would value those skills I wouldn’t have a problem...I have noticed that when less attractive women are being criticised for lacking some particular merit, people always resort to slagging off their looks. Their looks are not part of the issue, so why is this constantly brought up?
Red, I can understand your argument re sexual liberation for women, but to me, the idea of what you endorse appears to be for male pleasure. Yes, women can and do enjoy sex, but the sort of thing that is touted nowadays as ‘liberation’ seems to benefit men only, and is degrading. Poledancing/porn etc are largely aimed towards men, and judging from the men that I have met who have been openly into it I can safely say that they were scumbags with pathetic views on women.
...I will not judge the cancer thing unless I get it myself, I can’t imagine how traumatic it must be, and I think that if I was diagnosed I would have a complete breakdown. I think I remember reading somewhere about a study that showed that women with ‘fighting spirit’ lived longer than those who did not believe that they would survive. So the cancer bravery thing is not necessarily bullshit.
I apologise for ranting so much but I’ve just read twelve pages of this argument in one go and already written one comment and deleted it by accident, so if I don’t let it out I will explode. And if anyone’s going to have a go at me for banging on like some old feminist, I don’t give a shit because I’m proud of being female and actually saying what I think and striving for equality- when did ‘feminist’ become an insult anyway?
*The bottom line is, though, making women feel shit about themselves sells products, so I can’t see it ever changing.
Okay, the same reason that women get slagged off for their looks when they are lacking something, ...when they are getting negative slagging for being unattractive...it's the same negativity when they are slagged for being attractive. You can't have it both ways. Either women should not be criticised for being attractive, or they will be criticised, and it flips back, so if Kylie's going to be deemed talentless by many, and of course, it's predictable they would say, she's only up there for her looks...and the pleasure she gives to men...well, this brings me to another point, ...women take tremendous pleasure in Kylie's music too. The sexual being in me, as a woman myself, feels validated by her, despite her extremely polished image that yes, she knows she has to keep up with because of media standards which are inhumane...she is indeed a businesswoman but despite that, see I like what she does despite her barbie doll looks etc. , because underneath that, to me she is, a powerful feminist. I know it doesn't seem that way. She seems like a walking talking cliche to me too, when I'm in the rottenest of moods but over the years I've learned that it's never left me, a deep respect for an emotional resonance I never could help but recognize in her music, and often in her dance too. She is a feminist to me, and I have recognized this for some time, to myself, only to myself really because I know that others will not see it that way. She resonates to me, as a feminist, in business clothes, doing what she can, though I would like to see her get ready to show that feminist and humanitarian side of her with some clarity, now that she is undeniably so successful in business.
I hope I'm right, when I say my intuition is that it was actually a well timed comment from Morrissey because she's at that point where she can begin to think beyond personal emotion and business and move ahead to look to more global needs.
I say feminist because, despite going out of her way to do the dolly thing, catering to what sells, which is what our society as you acknowledged, leads women to do, kind of like cattle at an auction...you know, it's disrespect one way or another, if you're pretty, it's for that you get objectified, and eaten up like a chocolate bar for whoever has the bit of money to buy it, and if you're not pretty, it's the same, whatever skill you have to offer, it's bartered down to the highest bidder, same as with prettiness. If you're female, pretty or not you get slagged one way or another, by men mainly...if you're pretty you not only get objectified by men and seen as target practise for dickheads, but you get hated on by women, especially if they notice their men looking at you...so I feel more protective of pretty women, unless they are cruel themselves, than I do the ones who aren't so pretty, because I know they face hatred ( through objectification by men ) and through resentment by women, where women who are not so pretty still face dickheads because they are women, and because dickheads find a way to be that way whoever you are, male, female, cat, dog...but at least you don't have your fellow women scorning you and seeing your work as zero, when,...for instance Kylie, if she were, say, ugly, her work would be liked more by people who automatically dismiss her because she is so barbie-ish, when she has done some good songs that one doesn't have to pretty to do, but because she's pretty they go unrecognised by, for instance, many people in this forum, Breathe ( a song that Allison Moyet, or Patti Smith, or Joni Mitchell, would have gotten praise for, but because Kylie's pretty it's overlooked. ), Put Yourself In My Place ( a melancholy song that has a philosophy of universality, but again, because she looks like a blonde barbie it's treated as garbage here. ), You Did It Again ( a song where she playfully chastises herself for repeatedly going with emotion over reason ), ...
There are more but I've listed them before in this discussion. You said you read through it, but of course it takes time to actually listen to these songs as well, so if you do listen to them, they are on youtube, maybe afterward you'll see what I mean. Reverse discrimination on looks, it happens, a lot. It's pathetic that women cheat each other out of credit by attributing motive to just pleasing men. I'm a woman, and unfortunately not hard wired to be gay, but Kylie,...well, I wouldn't say no, and it's not just her looks, it's her emotional intelligence and affectionate way, her tendency to be unashamed of expressing both despite knowing there will be people who will write her off as just a whore.
Her cancer, is nothing to me. I don't give her any credit about that. I was sad to learn she had it but she's fine now. I'm very glad she survived it because I love her new material.
By the way, I love feminism, and any humane cause. I love gay activists, animal rights activists,...not all of it, because assholes are everywhere, just as there are many blonde barbies that are assholes, but Kylie, is not an asshole though there are some songs she's done I'm not into that are even a little embarrassing.
