Let's review the evidence. Is Morrissey racist?

[Worm]

“I do maintain that if your hair is wrong, your entire life is wrong.”

“I always thought my genitals were the result of some crude practical joke."

“If met Vic Reeves, I'd have no desire other than to smack him in the face.”

“Life would be so colourful if only I had a drink problem.”

“Long hair is an unpardonable offense which should be punishable by death.”

“I see myself rather like an old discarded dishrag.”

"I would never, ever do anything as vulgar as having fun."

“[Dance music] is the refuge for the mentally deficient. It's made by dull people for dull people.”

“I'm just happy being dumpy. Dumpy, fat and middle-aged.”

“Artists aren't really people. I'm actually 40 per cent papier mache.”

"The Chinese are a subspecies".

Notice a pattern?

Hyperbole (Greek: περβολή, 'exaggeration') is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (Wikipedia)

 

[wythenshawewallflower]

“I do maintain that if your hair is wrong, your entire life is wrong.”

“I always thought my genitals were the result of some crude practical joke."

“If met Vic Reeves, I'd have no desire other than to smack him in the face.”

“Life would be so colourful if only I had a drink problem.”

“Long hair is an unpardonable offense which should be punishable by death.”

“I see myself rather like an old discarded dishrag.”

“[Dance music] is the refuge for the mentally deficient. It's made by dull people for dull people.”

“I'm just happy being dumpy. Dumpy, fat and middle-aged.”

“Artists aren't really people. I'm actually 40 per cent papier mache.”

"The Chinese are a subspecies".

Notice a pattern?

Hyperbole (Greek: περβολή, 'exaggeration') is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (Wikipedia)

A superb response.
Here endeth the debate methinks.

 

[ghostworks]

hardly

it'd be a 'superb response' if the quotes Worm provided were analogous (and sourced)

 

[davidt]

hardly

it'd be a 'superb response' if the quotes Worm provided were analogous (and sourced)

Instead of 'Notice a pattern?' I believe 'Which doesn't belong?' is more appropriate.

I think in the list of quotes most are in a humorous / self-deprecating voice, the subspecies quote I feel is more serious, considering the tone of the original quote.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Hey Uncleskinny, take a chill pill and re-read my post. "There is another song I don't know very well called 'This is not your Country'" Please note the "I don't know very well" and then I ask for an explainations. I'm trying very hard just to discuss this in an open and friendly manner without starting a slanging match and find out about what I don't know. If you want to get snarky could you not post elsewhere?

To be fair, you could have just went and read the lyrics...

 

[smiler]

Instead of 'Notice a pattern?' I believe 'Which doesn't belong?' is more appropriate.

I think in the list of quotes most are in a humorous / self-deprecating voice, the subspecies quote I feel is more serious, considering the tone of the original quote.

but you have never heard the tone have you? - its in your imagination.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

but you have never heard the tone have you? - its in your imagination.

Are you suggesting that it is actually within the realm of possibility that he wasn't dead serious about something he said in relation to animal abuse? We are talking about the same Morrissey here, right?

 

[smiler]

Are you suggesting that it is actually within the realm of possibility that he wasn't dead serious about something he said in relation to animal abuse? We are talking about the same Morrissey here, right?

I think he was probably horrified and emotional (as the context indicates) rather than plain serious and logical

I am suggesting that we all only saw the quote in print and so none of us know the tone, so to begin talking about tone suggests an agenda or an over active imagination. However if you are asking me whether in the cold light of day in an unemotional way and in all seriousness, if Morrissey actually really feels that the Chinese are a subspecies, then the answer is a definate no. Ask yourself the same question.

Do you actually think that if Morrissey meets someone of Chinese descent (lets say he is introduced tomorrow) he is secrectly thinking, as he shakes their hand, that they are genetically sub-human? We are talking about the same Morrissey here, right?

 

[Deleted member 1074]

I am suggesting that we all only saw the quote in print and so none of us know the tone, so to begin talking about tone suggests an agenda or an over active imagination. However if you are asking me whether in the cold light of day, in all seriousness and in an unemotional way, if Morrissey actually really can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies, then the answer is a definate no. Ask yourself the same question.

I absolutely, in the cold light of day AND the warm dark of night, think he believes it. There isn't really any doubt about it. Do you REALLY think he didn't mean it when he said he wished Tony Blair and George W. Bush were dead? Do you REALLY think he didn't mean it when he wished Mike Joyce would die in a traffic accident? Do you REALLY think he doesn't want to see Margaret Thatcher's head lopped off? All this and worse have been said to a largely mindless audience who cheer at sentiments like that yet are near fanatical in their condemnation of cruelty to animals...

Fans make excuses for Morrissey and I'm not exactly sure why...is it because they just really love the music so much or is it because they actually confuse who he is for that gimmick he used to have where he acted all sensitive, asexual, and carried flowers in his pocket? If it is the latter, I hate to break it to you people, he abandoned that gimmick a long time ago. Morrissey has been almost nothing but bitter, venomous, greedy, and chart hungry for the last 14 years...and even that was tolerable when he still could put down decent lyrics to decent backing music, but the façade and the talent have long faded.

I'm sorry, but if you're caught with your dick in a watermelon, you may be able to fool some people into thinking you just tripped and fell and it slipped right in there...but when you're caught repeatedly after that doing the exact same thing, you just can't see it for anything other than what it is - you're a watermelon f***er...and it doesn't matter if no one can possibly know what the emotions behind you f***ing that melon were, you still f***ed a melon and that is all that matters.

PS - How many times has Morrissey been to China again? Oh, that's right...

 

[smiler]

I absolutely, in the cold light of day AND the warm dark of night, think he believes it. There isn't really any doubt about it. Do you REALLY think he didn't mean it when he said he wished Tony Blair and George W. Bush were dead? Do you REALLY think he didn't mean it when he wished Mike Joyce would die in a traffic accident? Do you REALLY think he doesn't want to see Margaret Thatcher's head lopped off? All this and worse have been said to a largely mindless audience who cheer at sentiments like that yet are near fanatical in their condemnation of cruelty to animals...

Fans make excuses for Morrissey and I'm not exactly sure why...is it because they just really love the music so much or is it because they actually confuse who he is for that gimmick he used to have where he acted all sensitive, asexual, and carried flowers in his pocket? If it is the latter, I hate to break it to you people, he abandoned that gimmick a long time ago. Morrissey has been almost nothing but bitter, venomous, greedy, and chart hungry for the last 14 years...and even that was tolerable when he still could put down decent lyrics to decent backing music, but the façade and the talent have long faded.

I'm sorry, but if you're caught with your dick in a watermelon, you may be able to fool some people into thinking you just tripped and fell and it slipped right in there...but when you're caught repeatedly after that doing the exact same thing, you just can't see it for anything other than what it is - you're a watermelon f***er...and it doesn't matter if no one can possibly know what the emotions behind you f***ing that melon were, you still f***ed a melon and that is all that matters.

PS - How many times has Morrissey been to China again? Oh, that's right...

did you miss Worms post about Hyperbole?

"Hyperbole (Greek: περβολή, 'exaggeration') is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally" - There is your answer, it isn't an excuse, we just get where he is coming from, we sense the tongue in the cheek or the chuckle in the voice, the sense of humour, or the emotion. It seems around 14 years ago you stopped getting Morrissey or maybe you never properly noticed that, who knows - don't beat yourself up over it, just move on. It happens to some people after every album (whilst others are converted by the very same album) and it goes much further back than 14 years. More often than not it is because you were projecting something onto Morrissey that was never even there. You end up feeling let down and betrayed and that pain turns to anger and before you realise it you have spent 14 wasted years demanding that someone you have never even met should retire because he has "lost it" - this despite the overwhelming evidence.

I've never been to China does that make me a watermelon f***er too?

I would also by the way greet the deaths of Tony Blair, George W. Bush and Margaret Thatcher with a joyous whoop

 

[Deleted member 1074]

did you miss Worms post about Hyperbole?

No, I didn't miss it. I'm very capable of reading a thread...

There is your answer, it isn't an excuse,

Your only flaw being that it actually is an excuse...

we just get where he is coming from, we sense the tongue in the cheek or the chuckle in the voice, the sense of humour, or the emotion.

Of course you do...no one understands him but you. Such a deep connection you two have. Congratulations!

It seems around 14 years ago you stopped getting Morrissey or maybe you never properly noticed that, who knows

Oh yes, I changed...Morrissey is exactly the same as he always was. What royalties court case? As if such a thing could bother him in the least!

It happens to some people after every album (whilst others are converted by the very same album)

A lot of people are stupid...

More often than not it is because you were projecting something onto Morrissey that was never even there.

Would you like some cream with your irony?

You end up feeling let down and betrayed and that pain turns to anger and before you realise it you have spent 14 wasted years demanding that someone you have never even met should retire because he has "lost it"

I'm let down and betrayed because the music and the lyrics are getting worse by the year and it is embarrassing that someone can go from "you can pin and mount me like a butterfly" to "and when they can't find a table for their fat Aunt Mable"...what better reason is there than that to expect someone to retire?

I've never been to China does that make me a watermelon f***er too?

I certainly wouldn't put anything past you at this point...

I would also by the way greet the deaths of Tony Blair, George W. Bush and Margaret Thatcher with a joyous whoop

Of course you would...because you're an idiot.

 

[smiler]

No, I didn't miss it. I'm very capable of reading a thread...



Your only flaw being that it actually is an excuse...



Of course you do...no one understands him but you. Such a deep connection you two have. Congratulations!



Oh yes, I changed...Morrissey is exactly the same as he always was. What royalties court case? As if such a thing could bother him in the least!



A lot of people are stupid...



Would you like some cream with your irony?



I'm let down and betrayed because the music and the lyrics are getting worse by the year and it is embarrassing that someone can go from "you can pin and mount me like a butterfly" to "and when they can't find a table for their fat Aunt Mable"...what better reason is there than that to expect someone to retire?



I certainly wouldn't put anything past you at this point...



Of course you would...because you're an idiot.

touch a nerve did I?

I don't claim to have "a deep connection" at all, people that do often end up disappointed.

You realise that the quote you used to illustrate Morrissey at his best "you can pin and mount me like a butterfly" is a quote from Molly Haskell - he didn't write that phrase. I also happen to love "Art-hounds" and was lucky enough to have been at Brixton to hear it in its full splendor - unforgettable.

I supose you think Morrissey was absolutely serious when he said "Long hair is an unpardonable offense which should be punishable by death.”

 

[Worm]

Instead of 'Notice a pattern?' I believe 'Which doesn't belong?' is more appropriate.

I think in the list of quotes most are in a humorous / self-deprecating voice, the subspecies quote I feel is more serious, considering the tone of the original quote.

You have read as many Morrissey interviews as I have over the years, and I have read just about every one he has ever done. The tone may change here and there but his tendency to exaggerate does not. It's not that he's "serious" in one place and "whimsical" in another. The point is that he overstates everything-- he seems almost pathologically incapable of uttering simple, unadorned declarative sentences. In particular he's always ratcheted up the verbal fireworks when talking about animal cruelty.

It was a dumb remark, but very much in line with his rhetorical style. Very little that Morrissey says is defensible on a strictly literal level, and that goes for every topic he's addressed, not just the controversial ones.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

touch a nerve did I?

Idiocy usually does rub me the wrong way...

I don't claim to have "a deep connection" at all, people that do often end up disappointed.

If you can't detect the obvious sarcasm in my response how do you expect anyone to buy that you can "sense the tongue in the cheek or the chuckle in the voice, the sense of humour, or the emotion" in ANY of Morrissey's statements? Are you just really adept in interpreting Morrisseyspeak but ignorant to everything else? Please, don't answer that...I already know.

You realise that the quote you used to illistrate Morrissey at his best "you can pin and mount me like a butterfly" is a quote from Molly Haskell - he didn't write that phrase. I also happen to love "Art-hounds" and was lucky enough to have been at Brixton to hear it in its full splendor - unforgettable.

1) I didn't say it was Morrissey at his best. I compared a line from his first song on his first album with a line from his newest performed song from his forthcoming album.
2) I never claimed he didn't steal the line.
3) Wonderful to hear about Brixton. I'm sure you enjoyed the part where he looked right at you and telepathically told you how much he understands you.
4) You realize "illistrate" is not a word no matter what country you're from, right?

I supose you think Morrissey was absolutely serious when he said "Long hair is an unpardonable offense which should be punishable by death.”

There is a big difference between making a comment like that and making a comment of similar nature while on the subject of an issue you take seriously and have devoted the majority of your life to supporting...and by big, I mean Grand Canyon big.

 

[Worm]

Well, wait. I guess I do see what people are talking about.

Morrissey often exaggerates, but only about frivolous subjects. He does get serious, now and then, addressing things he's passionate about.

I suppose we should pay more attention to statements made when his mind is clear and focused. When someone cuts through the campy rhetoric and gets him to commit to a point of view which is strong and unambiguous, we ought to give that more weight.

Some things are too serious to joke about. Even Morrissey must know that there's a time for fanciful wordplay and a time for sober declarations of one's true opinions.

Hmmm.

 

[davidt]

You have read as many Morrissey interviews as I have over the years, and I have read just about every one he has ever done. The tone may change here and there but his tendency to exaggerate does not. It's not that he's "serious" in one place and "whimsical" in another. The point is that he overstates everything-- he seems almost pathologically incapable of uttering simple, unadorned declarative sentences. In particular he's always ratcheted up the verbal fireworks when talking about animal cruelty.

It was a dumb remark, but very much in line with his rhetorical style. Very little that Morrissey says is defensible on a strictly literal level, and that goes for every topic he's addressed, not just the controversial ones.

I see your point, Morrissey does tend to exaggerate. But do you see how his comments could be interpreted as how he really feels? From some concerts earlier this year he has also said a couple times when introducing the song, "People are the same everywhere... except in China".

Let's take a look at what is actually libelous in the NME article. There are a lot of politics involved but what specifically in the article is libelous? Is it the cover/headline "'Morrissey - 'The gates of England are flooded. The country's been thrown away' Oh Dear. Not Again.", which focuses on the immigration comment?

It seems to have been a sensitive time back then. Shortly after the rumor of the NME article first appeared on the site (Rumor - Morrissey in NME skin storm again? - Nov. 16, 2007), I received notice from Morrissey's management that some legal action would be forthcoming for that post. Only later after the actual issue came out they turned their focus on the NME as the rumor turned out to be true.

I think they felt betrayed by the NME, especially after it seemed the interview went well. Or perhaps angered as they saw something similar would follow after the 1992 NME "Flying the flag or flirting with disaster?" cover.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Well, wait. I guess I do see what people are talking about.

Morrissey often exaggerates, but only about frivolous subjects. He does get serious, now and then, addressing things he's passionate about.

I suppose we should pay more attention to statements made when his mind is clear and focused. When someone cuts through the campy rhetoric and gets him to commit to a point of view which is strong and unambiguous, we ought to give that more weight.

Some things are too serious to joke about. Even Morrissey must know that there's a time for fanciful wordplay and a time for sober declarations of one's true opinions.

Hmmm.

Oh no, you're sadly mistaken...he's always tongue in cheek when talking about the slaughter of animals because he finds the subject highly amusing! Remember the time he hysterically compared the slaughter of chickens by KFC to the shootings in Norway? What a hoot that was! Don't you realize he's nothing but a campy queen 24/7...one Paul Lynde and Charles Nelson Riley can be proud of.

 

[smiler]

Oh no, you're sadly mistaken...he's always tongue in cheek when talking about the slaughter of animals because he finds the subject highly amusing! Remember the time he hysterically compared the slaughter of chickens by KFC to the shootings in Norway? What a hoot that was! Don't you realize he's nothing but a campy queen 24/7...one Paul Lynde and Charles Nelson Riley can be proud of.

I never said he was joking by the way - just that it was an emotional response to something horriffic

 

[smiler]

Idiocy usually does rub me the wrong way...



If you can't detect the obvious sarcasm in my response how do you expect anyone to buy that you can "sense the tongue in the cheek or the chuckle in the voice, the sense of humour, or the emotion" in ANY of Morrissey's statements? Are you just really adept in interpreting Morrisseyspeak but ignorant to everything else? Please, don't answer that...I already know.



1) I didn't say it was Morrissey at his best. I compared a line from his first song on his first album with a line from his newest performed song from his forthcoming album.
2) I never claimed he didn't steal the line.
3) Wonderful to hear about Brixton. I'm sure you enjoyed the part where he looked right at you and telepathically told you how much he understands you.
4) You realize "illistrate" is not a word no matter what country you're from, right?



There is a big difference between making a comment like that and making a comment of similar nature while on the subject of an issue you take seriously and have devoted the majority of your life to supporting...and by big, I mean Grand Canyon big.

come come don't be spiteful it doesn't suit you (and I corrected my error before you pointed it out)

 

[Worm]

I see your point, Morrissey does tend to exaggerate. But do you see how his comments could be interpreted as how he really feels? From some concerts earlier this year he has also said a couple times when introducing the song, "People are the same everywhere... except in China".

Let's take a look at what is actually libelous in the NME article. There are a lot of politics involved but what specifically in the article is libelous? Is it the cover/headline "'Morrissey - 'The gates of England are flooded. The country's been thrown away' Oh Dear. Not Again.", which focuses on the immigration comment?

It seems to have been a sensitive time back then. Shortly after the rumor of the NME article first appeared on the site (Rumor - Morrissey in NME skin storm again? - Nov. 16, 2007), I received notice from Morrissey's management that some legal action would be forthcoming for that post. Only later after the actual issue came out they turned their focus on the NME as the rumor turned out to be true.

I think they felt betrayed by the NME, especially after it seemed the interview went well. Or perhaps angered as they saw something similar would follow after the 1992 NME "Flying the flag or flirting with disaster?" cover.

I can see how his comments would seem to reflect real views, but only to outsiders. Not to Morrissey fans. He once said Americans were "diseased orangutans"-- sorry, "a few steps up from" diseased orangutans. Was I supposed to take that literally when I read that soundbite? Did you? Sure, he was joking, but weren't there other comments he made which disparaged America itself, as well as growing American influence in England?

I imagine you passed over that with a chuckle. We've all read his "outrageous" comments a hundred times and never thought to take him literally. Do these remarks reflect his true opinions? Often, yes, but obliquely. Does Morrissey dislike China for what he takes to be its horrible record of animal abuse? Yes. Does he actually regard Chinese people as racially inferior? No.

Also, it's clear Morrissey is just rehashing Ingrid Newkirk's talking points. It's obvious. He knows nothing firsthand about China or its people. A PETA rep handed him a piece of paper with some bullet points on it, or maybe he chatted with a PETA activist who'd just come back from China. Whatever. He knows nothing. He's hammering home PETA propaganda. Same with the Canadian boycott. If PETA started a campaign against Norway's malicious treatment of the garden snail, Norwegians would be a "subspecies" too. He's just parroting what he's been told. He's following the PETA activist playbook. Agitprop 101. Outrage the public, draw attention to the cause.

Look at the evidence. Which is easier to believe? That Morrissey is a racist? Or that he continually exaggerates in his typically campy, overdramatic way? The evidence is for the latter. On a purely rhetorical level, he's one of the sloppiest speakers I've ever heard. He throws around words all the time for effect. Again, does he dislike what he's been told are horrific Chinese abuses of animals? Yes. Is he going to keep lobbing verbal grenades at them? Yes. Does he actually think the Chinese are an inferior race? No.

I'm totally on Morrissey's side in his spat with the NME. If you accept what I've said above, then you have to realize that it's all too easy for a journalist to lead Morrissey into disaster. In the 80s, when Morrissey was still a hero, they relished the chance to print fantastic copy. In the 90s, and again with the Conor McNicholas fiasco, they wanted to take him down. Morrissey's habit of uttering outrageous, exaggerated statements didn't change. Their attitude toward him did.