Let's review the evidence. Is Morrissey racist?

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Oh no, you're sadly mistaken...he's always tongue in cheek when talking about the slaughter of animals because he finds the subject highly amusing! Remember the time he hysterically compared the slaughter of chickens by KFC to the shootings in Norway? What a hoot that was! Don't you realize he's nothing but a campy queen 24/7...one Paul Lynde and Charles Nelson Riley can be proud of.

True! How could I forget?

But surely there was one time when some responsible party or other sat him down, slapped him with a wet dishrag, and demanded he speak his mind. You know, not in the heat of the moment. Not posturing for journalists. Not trying to score points for one of his "pet" causes.

Surely someone, at some point, confronted him about his rhetoric. Not Paul Lynde or Charles Nelson Riley, maybe. But someone. A fan, maybe. An agent. A family member. Somebody who cared. Somebody who said, "Why don't you just drop the rhetoric for once and say what you really think, so people know?"

I wonder if that occurred?
 

smiler

Junior Member
True! How could I forget?

But surely there was one time when some responsible party or other sat him down, slapped him with a wet dishrag, and demanded he speak his mind. You know, not in the heat of the moment. Not posturing for journalists. Not trying to score points for one of his "pet" causes.

Surely someone, at some point, confronted him about his rhetoric. Not Paul Lynde or Charles Nelson Riley, maybe. But someone. A fan, maybe. An agent. A family member. Somebody who cared. Somebody who said, "Why don't you just drop the rhetoric for once and say what you really think, so people know?"

I wonder if that occurred?

But he has clarified specific quotes and sentiments on the subject many times in various statements hasn't he and also admitted (and openly regretted) that sometimes he has a "big-mouth" with a sharp tongue and a tendency to go over the top in interviews
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
But he has clarified specific quotes and sentiments on the subject many times in various statements hasn't he and also admitted (and openly regretted) that sometimes he has a "big-mouth" with a sharp tongue and a tendency to go over the top in interviews

Has he? Has he said anything specific about racism?
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
Lots of interesting stuff from Smiler, Worm and vivahate.
After all their input surely we have to fall down on the side of him not being a racist.
After all would we buy his records if we really thought he was racist? (sort of harks back to the " does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreaciation" thread).
 

!Viva Hate!

Well-Known Member
Lots of interesting stuff from Smiler, Worm and vivahate.
After all their input surely we have to fall down on the side of him not being a racist.
After all would we buy his records if we really thought he was racist? (sort of harks back to the " does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreaciation" thread).

Is he a racist? No...
Is he massively prejudiced? Yes...

People tend to forget there is a difference between the two.
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
Is he a racist? No...
Is he massively prejudiced? Yes...

People tend to forget there is a difference between the two.
The difference between racism and 'massive' prejudice I would say is a fine line.
But, let's face it, most of us like Morrissey for his records and not his politics.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Is he a racist? No...
Is he massively prejudiced? Yes...

People tend to forget there is a difference between the two.

Apt distinction!

Morrissey is passionately prejudiced against anyone who tortures and kills animals. Hence his dislike of the Chinese for what he has been told is a national characteristic. Had PETA done a Find & Replace in the talking points bulletin they sent him, and substituted "Poland" and "Polish" for "China" and "Chinese", we'd be asking if he hated the Poles.

For those engaged in the cruel treatment of animals, beware! Morrissey already has an irrational, prejudiced dislike of you! Don't expect him to sign your "Ask" sleeve!

Glad you settled this matter, thanks.
 

Black Cloud

Case Sensitive
Is Morrissey a racist? I don't know. Was he influenced by the Situationists? Sure. Does he thrive on creating a spectacle? Obviously. Does he have any filter at all? Highly unlikely. Does he agree, or even care, about half the things he says so long as he gets some kind of reaction? Doubtful.
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
Apt distinction!

Morrissey is passionately prejudiced against anyone who tortures and kills animals. Hence his dislike of the Chinese for what he has been told is a national characteristic. Had PETA done a Find & Replace in the talking points bulletin they sent him, and substituted "Poland" and "Polish" for "China" and "Chinese", we'd be asking if he hated the Poles.

For those engaged in the cruel treatment of animals, beware! Morrissey already has an irrational, prejudiced dislike of you! Don't expect him to sign your "Ask" sleeve!

Glad you settled this matter, thanks.
I'm not so sure Worm. If it's racism we're talking here, white europeans would not draw this type of abuse. Nevertheless, I hope you're right.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
My God, white Europeans and Americans have drawn more abuse from Morrissey than any other group of people on the planet.

"But Worm, that wasn't because of their racial background, it was because of other things".

Precisely. As !Viva Hate! pointed out, it's not about racism. It's about Morrissey's prejudicial dislike of people who are cruel to animals.
 
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Worm

Taste the diffidence
Still waiting for the outrage on this site over Morrissey's 2007 comment on True To You:

"I would go to wherever there seemed to be interest - except China, which is too barbaric. In China, as we all now know, cats and dogs are skinned alive for the fur industry. Come, come, nuclear bomb."

Golly! Did Morrissey advocate that China be nuked? Not just boycotted. Nuked, for Christ's sake?

Where's the outrage? Where's the indignation?

Could it be that maybe everyone read the comment and took it as (a) an exaggeration, per Morrissey's usual mode of speech and (b) recognized that Morrissey's dislike of China was founded solely and entirely on the fact that someone told him skinning cats and dogs was a national industry, and not racism?
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
My God, white Europeans and Americans have drawn more abuse from Morrissey than any other group of people on the planet.

"But Worm, that wasn't because of their racial background, it was because of other things".

Precisely. As !Viva Hate! pointed out, it's not about racism. It's about Morrissey's prejudicial dislike of people who are cruel to animals.
But Morrissey is a white european. How can he be racist about himself. The issue here surely is that he made a racist attack against the chinese!
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
But Morrissey is a white european. How can he be racist about himself. The issue here surely is that he made a racist attack against the chinese!

You asked "If it's racism we're talking here", and my response was to your conditional: we aren't talking racism here. Morrissey heaps abuse on vast multitudes of people, most of them white people from Europe and America. The whole point is that he is not racist. He is passionate about certain things and publicly speaks out against those he regards as villains, often using overblown, exaggerated rhetoric. If PETA hadn't shown him their Chinese Fur Trade scare videos he wouldn't give a f*** about the Chinese. Period. End of story.
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
You asked "If it's racism we're talking here", and my response was to your conditional: we aren't talking racism here. Morrissey heaps abuse on vast multitudes of people, most of them white people from Europe and America. The whole point is that he is not racist. He is passionate about certain things and publicly speaks out against those he regards as villains, often using overblown, exaggerated rhetoric. If PETA hadn't shown him their Chinese Fur Trade scare videos he wouldn't give a f*** about the Chinese. Period. End of story.
Well, if you feel it is 'end of story', mazeltov. I'm not so sure and hope to see other posters who do not think they have the last word continue the discussion.
 

Black Cloud

Case Sensitive
Well, if you feel it is 'end of story', mazeltov. I'm not so sure and hope to see other posters who do not think they have the last word continue the discussion.

Mazel tov is two words. If you don't value other languages highly enough to use them correctly, it might lead some people to believe that you have racist tendencies. :p
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Well, if you feel it is 'end of story', mazeltov. I'm not so sure and hope to see other posters who do not think they have the last word continue the discussion.

Morrissey's comments and song lyrics about race are problematic. There's plenty to discuss, even though, at the end of the day, I am certain Morrissey is not a racist.

I find it curious, though, that some fans like you keep asking the question about racism over and over again. You keep refusing to draw any concrete conclusions, yet you keep the issue lingering despite plenty of "evidence" that Morrissey isn't racist. You have this air of of having an open mind, but I think it's starting to become plain that your "open mind" is just a pretext for reiterating the charge that Morrissey is racist. Above, for example, your response to one of my posts claimed that Morrissey had made "a racist attack against the Chinese", which is not at all certain and is, in fact, the whole point of this debate. Do you know what the wife-beater argument is, Peter? The classic form is "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It's a loaded question that implies guilt in its premise, regardless of how the question is answered. Basically, you keep asking, with innocence that looks increasingly disingenuous, "Do Morrissey's racist attacks against the Chinese make him a racist?" I think you know that merely asking the question is a smear on Morrissey's name. It's kind of wearing thin.
 
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smiler

Junior Member
Morrissey's comments and song lyrics about race are problematic. There's plenty to discuss, even though, at the end of the day, I am certain Morrissey is not a racist.

I find it curious, though, that some fans like you keep asking the question about racism over and over again. You keep refusing to draw any concrete conclusions, yet you keep the issue lingering despite plenty of "evidence" that Morrissey isn't racist. You have this air of of having an open mind, but I think it's starting to become plain that your "open mind" is just a pretext for reiterating the charge that Morrissey is racist. Above, for example, your response to one of my posts claimed that Morrissey had made "a racist attack against the Chinese", which is not at all certain and is, in fact, the whole point of this debate. Do you know what the wife-beater argument is, Peter? The classic form is "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It's a loaded question that implies guilt in its premise, regardless of how the question is answered. Basically, you keep asking, with innocence that looks increasingly disingenuous, "Do Morrissey's racist attacks against the Chinese make him a racist?" I think you know that merely asking the question is a smear on Morrissey's name. It's kind of wearing thin.

Absolutely! and you only have to read this thread to see how prepared certainly people are to misquote, miss-atribute quotes, ramp up the language and take quotes out of context. It makes me think that those people (and it easy to see who in this thread) have there own agenda, they have already made up there minds and are determind to twist the evidence or even invent evidence to fit that view. I have repeatedly asked them to explain why (as you can see) but I never get an answer.
 

smiler

Junior Member
I see your point, Morrissey does tend to exaggerate. But do you see how his comments could be interpreted as how he really feels? From some concerts earlier this year he has also said a couple times when introducing the song, "People are the same everywhere... except in China".

Let's take a look at what is actually libelous in the NME article. There are a lot of politics involved but what specifically in the article is libelous? Is it the cover/headline "'Morrissey - 'The gates of England are flooded. The country's been thrown away' Oh Dear. Not Again.", which focuses on the immigration comment?

It seems to have been a sensitive time back then. Shortly after the rumor of the NME article first appeared on the site (Rumor - Morrissey in NME skin storm again? - Nov. 16, 2007), I received notice from Morrissey's management that some legal action would be forthcoming for that post. Only later after the actual issue came out they turned their focus on the NME as the rumor turned out to be true.

I think they felt betrayed by the NME, especially after it seemed the interview went well. Or perhaps angered as they saw something similar would follow after the 1992 NME "Flying the flag or flirting with disaster?" cover.

I never heard the "People are the same everywhere... except in China" quote before do you have a source or a link?

I am not sure what your point is about the NME article. You appear to be saying that you can't see exactly which part was libelous. However Morrissey made it pretty clear in his recent statement:

"When the interview appeared in print, Morrissey's replies and Jonze's questions had been altered, and the interviews heavily edited, in order to bring the issue of racism to the fore and to make Morrissey appear racist and hypocritical."

The rest is up to the courts to decide. It is clear he felt betrayed by the NME and it appears the NME have been at the very least very unscrupulous and under handed which is nothing new. Having said that I have very little faith in the British justice system to make the correct decision.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Absolutely! and you only have to read this thread to see how prepared certainly people are to misquote, miss-atribute quotes, ramp up the language and take quotes out of context. It makes me think that those people (and it easy to see who in this thread) have there own agenda, they have already made up there minds and are determind to twist the evidence or even invent evidence to fit that view. I have repeatedly asked them to explain why (as you can see) but I never get an answer.

I'll say this: I'm angry at Morrissey for making badly-worded public remarks over and over again. I'm angry that a defense of his remarks is needed, and with respect to "subspecies" and a few other imbecilic comments a defense is most certainly needed. I wish it were simpler. But there's also no question that there are those in the press, and some of his own "fans", who simply don't like him and want to drag him through the gutter face first. He needs to smarten up.

Then again, I find it incredibly obvious, and always have done, that Morrissey stands against racism and any other forms of stupidity and cruelty in the world. Once, in 2002, when he was not signed to a label, Morrissey was asked by a record exec if he could supply a demo tape. "Yes", Morrissey replied. "There's 22 of them down in Tower Records". When these "racism" questions pop up, I feel like the answer is so obvious people have to be missing it-- deliberately. On the negative side of the ledger, yes, he's said some dodgy things about race. But on the positive side of the ledger, um, there are 22 brilliant anti-cruelty statements down in the record shops. Pay some f***ing attention already.

(Maybe this question is popping up because there are no more record shops? :) )
 
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