Let's review the evidence. Is Morrissey racist?

[goinghome]

So English...here's a fine version of Trouble Loves Me, beautifully preluded by Mikey Farrell -
[youtube]hDirEldvw7s&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Trouble is not alone in the sentiment

 

[cornelius blaze]

 

[deathwish]

I don't know if Morrissey is definitely racist or not. The problem is that there is plenty of evidence to support the view that he is. From his 'I don't hate pakistanis, I just dislike them immensely' bon mot (the Severed Alliance) to 'the gates of England are flooded, the country's been thrown away', It is very difficult to see how those kind of statements are in any way different to the unthinking bile that is spouted by the BNP or English Defence League.

I also don't accept the argument that it's somehow ok (and therefore not racist) to utter questionable statements about race and nationality, if it's in the 'higher cause' of deliberately being controversial, or generating publicity, or maintaining a persona. If that is what Morrissey is doing, then that seems even more disgusting than racism itself.

 

[smiler]

I don't know if Morrissey is definitely racist or not. The problem is that there is plenty of evidence to support the view that he is. From his 'I don't hate pakistanis, I just dislike them immensely' bon mot (the Severed Alliance) to 'the gates of England are flooded, the country's been thrown away', It is very difficult to see how those kind of statements are in any way different to the unthinking bile that is spouted by the BNP or English Defence League.

I also don't accept the argument that it's somehow ok (and therefore not racist) to utter questionable statements about race and nationality, if it's in the 'higher cause' of deliberately being controversial, or generating publicity, or maintaining a persona. If that is what Morrissey is doing, then that seems even more disgusting than racism itself.

This right here is the problem. The phrase "'I don't hate pakistanis, I just dislike them immensely" Is taken from a book that Morrissey described as 95% lies. Also it is not a direct quote is it? In fact it is a someone else (who not doubt had a grudge) remembering something Morrissey might have said once possibly. Yet you quote it here like Morrissey definately said it and meant it. Why?

 

[deathwish]

This right here is the problem. The phrase "'I don't hate pakistanis, I just dislike them immensely" Is taken from a book that Morrissey described as 95% lies. Also it is not a direct quote is it? In fact it is a someone else (who not doubt had a grudge) remembering something Morrissey might have said once possibly. Yet you quote it here like Morrissey definately said it and meant it. Why?

Well, you're right it wasn't direct quote. However, it does fit with virtually everything else he's said on the subject. As for Morrissey calling the book 95% lies, well he would say that wouldn't he. Didn't a British court come to the conclusion that he was 'devious,truculent and unreliable' when it came to his own interests?

 

[smiler]

Well, you're right it wasn't direct quote. However, it does fit with virtually everything else he's said on the subject. As for Morrissey calling the book 95% lies, well he would say that wouldn't he. Didn't a British court come to the conclusion that he was 'devious,truculent and unreliable' when it came to his own interests?

It doesn't fit in at all it sticks out like a sore thumb - you didn't answer why you misrepresented the quote to fit your own agenda?

 

[deathwish]

It doesn't fit in at all it sticks out like a sore thumb - you didn't answer why you misrepresented the quote to fit your own agenda?

Sir, I have no agenda, and if it will make you happy I will replace the offending quote with 'black people and white people will never really get on or like each other'.

Or does that not fit with your agenda?

 

[smiler]

Sir, I have no agenda, and if it will make you happy I will replace the offending quote with 'black people and white people will never really get on or like each other'.

Or does that not fit with your agenda?

just remove the quote altogether, it doesn't imform the debate. if you want to replace it replace it with details of his recent contribution to the love music hate racism campagin and the accompanying quotes about how he clearly isn't racist. The old quote you suggestted is out of context. It was by the way made soon after the LA riots and didn't he actually say somthing like how depressing it was that black people and white people will never get along, yet you select just the end of the sentence - why?

 

[deathwish]

just remove the quote altogether, it doesn't imform the debate. if you want to replace it replace it with details of his recent contribution to the love music hate racism campagin and the accompanying quotes about how he clearly isn't racist. The old quote you suggestted is out of context. It was by the way made soon after the LA riots and didn't he actually say somthing like how depressing it was that black people and white people will never get along, yet you select just the end of the sentence - why?

I think the clue is in the title - Let's review the evidence.

If you look at my first post, the point I was making was that it is very easy to make the case that Morrissey is racist based on what he has previously said. Of course there are also examples that would point to the opposite view, such as the Love Music Hate Racism. However, the cynic in me would point out that he very publicly signed up to that campaign in the aftermath of the second NME furore. I can't recall him expressing much interest in it before.

It's very easy in a debate like this to say 'Oh but you're taking his words out of context' or 'oh but he didn't mean it in that way'. That might be true in individual instances. However, I suggest to you that that position isn't sustainable when you look at the totality of his statements on the subject. In my view, they paint a worrying picture. For every weak 'I don't understand racism' comment that Morrissey has said, there are numerous examples that contradict that stance. 'Your loss jew boy' , just one of the very many that can only have one context, in my opinion.

 

[smiler]

I think the clue is in the title - Let's review the evidence.

If you look at my first post, the point I was making was that it is very easy to make the case that Morrissey is racist based on what he has previously said. Of course there are also examples that would point to the opposite view, such as the Love Music Hate Racism. However, the cynic in me would point out that he very publicly signed up to that campaign in the aftermath of the second NME furore. I can't recall him expressing much interest in it before.

It's very easy in a debate like this to say 'Oh but you're taking his words out of context' or 'oh but he didn't mean it in that way'. That might be true in individual instances. However, I suggest to you that that position isn't sustainable when you look at the totality of his statements on the subject. In my view, they paint a worrying picture. For every weak 'I don't understand racism' comment that Morrissey has said, there are numerous examples that contradict that stance. 'Your loss jew boy' , just one of the very many that can only have one context, in my opinion.

Again that isn't a direct quote is it? - Its just someone saying that his mate (who has a grudge) ages ago got a fax once that said that probably - is that "evidence" to you? why don't you make that clear? Instead of presenting it like a direct quote (again)

Yes the clue is in the title "evidence" - that means real quotes in full in context and from both sides of the discussion - If you want to include hearsay then at least make it clear that the source is not reliable, then people can make an imformed choice. You have provided only one sided and (apparently deliberately) misleading evidence - why?

Interesting that the "cynic in you" appears to be only woken on one side of the argument?

 

[davidt]

well that a misquote for a start he apparently said ""Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific. You can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies."

"can't help but feel" is very different from "had called...."

Anyway i think this is probably the closest thing to racsim he has ever said - its is a little ugly - but i don't think he's racist at all

"You can't help but feel..." is pretty much the same or worse as saying "I feel...". Just come out and say it, "I feel the Chinese are a subspecies", don't use language to deflect what you think onto others. The suggestion that it's very different and your characterization of past threads as 'full of the "he's a racist" lies' I think shows you are in denial.

just remove the quote altogether, it doesn't imform the debate. if you want to replace it replace it with details of his recent contribution to the love music hate racism campagin and the accompanying quotes about how he clearly isn't racist. The old quote you suggestted is out of context. It was by the way made soon after the LA riots and didn't he actually say somthing like how depressing it was that black people and white people will never get along, yet you select just the end of the sentence - why?

As you may recall, even the "Love Music, Hate Racism" movement you referenced thought it was a racist statement and dropped their support (link):

You shouldn't just say, "If you make a racist comment, you are forever doomed." I think it was really successful because of the people I've mentioned, all have subsequently completely and utterly dissociated themselves from fascism and racism. In fact, many of them have become quite left-wing artists in their own right. David Bowie has both given money to the Anti-Nazi League and completely condemned his views from the '70s. Madness are very friendly to Love Music Hate Racism. Elvis Costello, too.

We were very nervous about Morrissey from the beginning when we launched LMHR because of some of the songs he's sung, like "Bengali in Platforms," hanging around the Madness gig wearing a Union Jack flag and all that. Now, when he made the comments about immigration [in the NME in 2008], he made quite a strong case that he didn't say them, and he wanted to make a statement against racism and come out in support of an anti-racist cause.

I would have been more suspicious, but before that, he was starting to hang around LMHR concerts. He came to one of our very first gigs with the Libertines. He was there, he signed T-shirts, and he really wanted to support us. He was already beginning to hang around with anti-racist bands, and we thought, "Come on, let's give the man a chance." He sponsored the carnival, gave us $44,000, and he also wanted us to put stalls up at his gigs to make a strong anti-racist statement. We thought that was worth doing.

But this time...you know, everyone's entitled to be wrong or change their mind once. I think the problem we've got with Morrissey is that he's done it several times.

I don't believe it's a mistake. I think it's conscious, and I think he's gone too far. In our organization, some of the bands have already met and talked about it, and we don't want to be associated with him. We feel it's not helpful to anybody.​

As for my opinion, I think it's a complex issue and is there is no simple answer. Maybe it is calculated that he makes statements he knows will be controversial so they get press and therefore more attention to what he most strongly believes in, animal rights. I don't feel it is 'libelous' by the NME, Guardian, or anyone else to call him out on the statements. At the same time, Morrissey has had friends that are of a racial minority and many of his fans are of a racial minority, not exactly traits of someone that could be characterized as 'racist'.

 

[Anaesthesine]

Morrissey is an unapologetic, classically trained misanthrope. That is the beginning, middle and end of it. Misanthropy is not racism, and Morrissey is not a racist. Cowards, morons, ignoramuses and people who lack empathy are racists. Some of the cleverest, most insightful writers/philosophers of all time were misanthropes.

Morrissey is a highly-functioning misanthrope in an age when it is unfashionable to be so. I agree, some of his statements are terribly misguided, thoughtless, hurtful and counterproductive, but he does not discriminate on the basis of race, he discriminates on the basis of walking upright, using tools, factory farming and the wearing of hats.

This is a silly conversation.

 

[Raphael Lambach]

Don't you understand guys Morrissey likes to shock people? It makes him to laught at us.
I think he's racist, of course but he cannot admit that and he needs to lie.
Of course he loves his country and he thanked God for having to levave US.
He only lives there for 8-9 years 'cause it was interesting for his business.

"Irish blood, English heart" is a polite response for all acusation and a marvelous song, of course.

 

[Kewpie]

urrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

Don't you understand guys Morrissey likes to shock people? It makes him to laught at us.
I think he's racist, of course but he cannot admit that and he needs to lie.
Of course he loves his country and he thanked God for having to levave US.
He only lives there for 8-9 years 'cause it was interesting for his business.

"Irish blood, English heart" is a polite response for all acusation and a marvelous song, of course.

For god's sake, you should read this thread

 

[The Harsh Truth]

Re: urrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

For god's sake, you should read this thread

For f*** sake, you should stop being so f***ing rude and telling somebody to read something from four f***ing years ago.

 

[Kewpie]

Re: urrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

RL is wrong to think that Morrissey is a racist and misunderstands the background of Irish Blood, English Heart.
If he reads the above mentioned thread, he might change his opinion.

 

[Media Whore]

Re: urrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

To be fair Kewpie, he was talking more about the feeling of belonging or having a sense of national identity that the song conveys rather than what the last stanza means.

And was changing the subject title to "urrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh" really necessary?

As to my own opinion, I don't think Morrissey is racist either, just probably not as PC as what is expected these days.

 

[Media Whore]

Morrissey is an unapologetic, classically trained misanthrope. That is the beginning, middle and end of it. Misanthropy is not racism, and Morrissey is not a racist. Cowards, morons, ignoramuses and people who lack empathy are racists. Some of the cleverest, most insightful writers/philosophers of all time were misanthropes.

Morrissey is a highly-functioning misanthrope in an age when it is unfashionable to be so. I agree, some of his statements are terribly misguided, thoughtless, hurtful and counterproductive, but he does not discriminate on the basis of race, he discriminates on the basis of walking upright, using tools, factory farming and the wearing of hats.

This is a silly conversation.

Does this mean that clever people are given certain concessions?

 

[Raphael Lambach]

Re: urrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

For f*** sake, you should stop being so f***ing rude and telling somebody to read something from four f***ing years ago.

RL is wrong to think that Morrissey is a racist and misunderstands the background of Irish Blood, English Heart.
If he reads the above mentioned thread, he might change his opinion.

Long ago I thought Morrissey only liked to make polemics about some subjects. If you take some tracks and analyzes it you're find out many things that can make us think he's nationalist. I'm not judging him. It's only my opinion then no one is able to say if it's wrong or right. Morrissey himself should say what he really is.
I know he denies to be racist, but his statements don't agree with that.

To be fair Kewpie, he was talking more about the feeling of belonging or having a sense of national identity that the song conveys rather than what the last stanza means.

And was changing the subject title to "urrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh" really necessary?

As to my own opinion, I don't think Morrissey is racist either, just probably not as PC as what is expected these days.

 

[cornelius blaze]

Morrissey is an unapologetic, classically trained misanthrope.

especially to those dirty foreigners!




'classically trained'