How Morrissey changed your life

[Anaesthesine]

You're the first person I've come across who found Wilde first and then Morrissey!

As a fellow Wilde enthusiast I just wanted to add, respectfully, that I think the quotation of Wilde's mentioned above is not a condemnation. Or, if it is in the immediate context, elsewhere Wilde would have found that fact to be a matter of deep philosophical interest. Wilde regarded our personalities as malleable and it was on that basis he founded his hopes for a better society. The cosmopolitan mind, which he described in detail in "The Critic As Artist", was a mind capable of multiplying itself by borrowing other personalities. The less authentic you were, the more human you became. The less you insisted on yourself-- oyour homeland, your religion, your sexuality, etc-- the more likely you were to embrace and thereby reconcile opposites.

In my opinion Morrissey is a perfect Wildean disciple because he finds himself in other people.

Ooh, you are such a deep thinker - it keeps a body honest.

Yes, it is a bit of a simplification to say that it is a condemnation. In the context of the conversation, however, it seemed like a good short-cut.

Yes, Oscar found food for thought in all things, and his was not a judgemental or condemning nature. This is what I love about him. His notions of conventionality, tolerance and human intellectual potential are so complex, I find myself reflecting on them still.

I am currently reading R. S. Hichens "The Green Carnation," which was considered an attack on Wilde's character. It does, however, very deftly lampoon his philosophy while at the same time elevating it. This passage at the end, spoken by the protagonist, is somewhat familiar:

"For the artist is always conceited, just as the true Philistine is always fond of going to the Royal Academy. I have brought the art of preposterous conversation to the pitch of perfection; but I have been greatly handicapped in my efforts by the egregious wisdom of a world that insists upon taking me seriously. My lectures have been gravely discussed. My plays have been solemnly criticised by the amusing failures in literature who love to call themselves 'the gentlemen of the press.' My poems have been boycotted by prurient publishers... bishops have declared that I am a monster, and monsters have declared that I ought to be a bishop. And all this has befallen me because I am an artist in absurdity, a human being who dares to be ridiculous...

Despise the normal, and flee from everything that is hallowed by custom, as you would flee from the seven deadly virtues. Cling to the abnormal..." and so on.

This is how I see Morrissey. That he is consciously carrying Wilde's philosophy forward is undeniable, that he embodies the notion that unconventionality is liberating is also obvious. But he runs headlong into the same problem that Oscar did in his day. Both Oscar and Morrissey get caught up in the paradox of human nature - it IS possible to move forward, to free ourselves from convention, and realise our universal potential, but we must first be resolutely ourselves.

The artist and provocateur must reveal and transcend the conventional absurdities that govern our daily lives, and that means being absurd, and that is Morrissey's greatest Wildean achievement, in my eyes. But that comes at the cost of treading that fine line between the ridiculous and the sublime, and tripping over it.

I love him deeply for his willingness to go that far.

 

[blink853]

Don't you hate those conversations? "He's soo depressing!" "Actually dear, if you really listen to the lyrics he's quite funny..."

One of my friends refers to him as "the original emo". Makes me want to smack her in the face everytime.

How did he change my life?
He possibly saved my life. I was in hospital, and whilst listening to ringleader of the tormentors, I made the decision to get better. Plus I made a RL friendship based entirely on our shared love of the Mozfather!

 

[Worm]

Ooh, you are such a deep thinker - it keeps a body honest.

Yes, it is a bit of a simplification to say that it is a condemnation. In the context of the conversation, however, it seemed like a good short-cut.

Yes, Oscar found food for thought in all things, and his was not a judgemental or condemning nature. This is what I love about him. His notions of conventionality, tolerance and human intellectual potential are so complex, I find myself reflecting on them still.

I am currently reading R. S. Hichens "The Green Carnation," which was considered an attack on Wilde's character. It does, however, very deftly lampoon his philosophy while at the same time elevating it. This passage at the end, spoken by the protagonist, is somewhat familiar:

"For the artist is always conceited, just as the true Philistine is always fond of going to the Royal Academy. I have brought the art of preposterous conversation to the pitch of perfection; but I have been greatly handicapped in my efforts by the egregious wisdom of a world that insists upon taking me seriously. My lectures have been gravely discussed. My plays have been solemnly criticised by the amusing failures in literature who love to call themselves 'the gentlemen of the press.' My poems have been boycotted by prurient publishers... bishops have declared that I am a monster, and monsters have declared that I ought to be a bishop. And all this has befallen me because I am an artist in absurdity, a human being who dares to be ridiculous...

Despise the normal, and flee from everything that is hallowed by custom, as you would flee from the seven deadly virtues. Cling to the abnormal..." and so on.

This is how I see Morrissey. That he is consciously carrying Wilde's philosophy forward is undeniable, that he embodies the notion that unconventionality is liberating is also obvious. But he runs headlong into the same problem that Oscar did in his day. Both Oscar and Morrissey get caught up in the paradox of human nature - it IS possible to move forward, to free ourselves from convention, and realise our universal potential, but we must first be resolutely ourselves.

The artist and provocateur must reveal and transcend the conventional absurdities that govern our daily lives, and that means being absurd, and that is Morrissey's greatest Wildean achievement, in my eyes. But that comes at the cost of treading that fine line between the ridiculous and the sublime, and tripping over it.

I love him deeply for his willingness to go that far.

That passage from "The Green Carnation" is extremely funny. Gilbert and Sullivan had a nice go at him, too.

You are very right to say that Oscar and Morrissey ran into the problem of becoming a caricature headed nowhere. Wilde realized it only after his fall from grace. Much of "De Profundis" is concerned with his acceptance of sorrow as a vital mode of individuality. Until his bitter tragedy he had always lived his life by the credo he declared in court to be the Greek way ("to realize oneself is the first and foremost aim of life, and to realize oneself through pleasure is far more enjoyable than to do so through pain"). In prison he understood that pain was equally important and that by ignoring or minimalizing this he had failed to develop a significant part of his personality.

Morrissey in some ways is the reverse of that, being more occupied with suffering than pleasure, although I have always found a great deal of joy and happiness in Morrissey's songs to counterbalance the melancholy (just as in Wilde one finds many hints of tragedy in the stories and poems).

Don't you think Morrissey has transcended his limitations, though? The greatness of "Ringleader Of The Tormentors", for me, is that he is pushing into new and unexplored regions of his personality that he had previously neglected. And really the last ten or fifteen years of his solo career give the lie to the "Mr. Misery" caricature which (I think we all must admit) he steered very close to in his earlier days.

 

[Anaesthesine]

That passage from "The Green Carnation" is extremely funny. Gilbert and Sullivan had a nice go at him, too.

You are very right to say that Oscar and Morrissey ran into the problem of becoming a caricature headed nowhere. Wilde realized it only after his fall from grace. Much of "De Profundis" is concerned with his acceptance of sorrow as a vital mode of individuality. Until his bitter tragedy he had always lived his life by the credo he declared in court to be the Greek way ("to realize oneself is the first and foremost aim of life, and to realize oneself through pleasure is far more enjoyable than to do so through pain"). In prison he understood that pain was equally important and that by ignoring or minimalizing this he had failed to develop a significant part of his personality.

Morrissey in some ways is the reverse of that, being more occupied with suffering than pleasure, although I have always found a great deal of joy and happiness in Morrissey's songs to counterbalance the melancholy (just as in Wilde one finds many hints of tragedy in the stories and poems).

Don't you think Morrissey has transcended his limitations, though? The greatness of "Ringleader Of The Tormentors", for me, is that he is pushing into new and unexplored regions of his personality that he had previously neglected. And really the last ten or fifteen years of his solo career give the lie to the "Mr. Misery" caricature which (I think we all must admit) he steered very close to in his earlier days.

It is so true. Oscar did champion self-knowledge through pleasure (a wonderful philosophy, to a certain extent ). It was the tragedy, however, that made him a saint. That trial and imprisonment redefined all that had gone before. Maybe it would take an external tragedy at this point to bring out Morrissey's version of "De Profundis." It would be a remarkable thing to hear, don't you think? I sincerely hope that no such thing happens - he deserves to be as happy as he's made so many people. Still, imagine if Oscar had just carried on as he was, without making his fatal error. He would be remembered as a very witty fellow who wrote some great plays and a book or two, made fantastic conversation, and worshipped blue-and-white porcelain.

As for Morrissey, I absolutely agree with you on Tormentors - I think it really succeeds on a personal (if not a musical) level. It really resonated with me at this point in my life, but it lacked a certain sparkle. I also agree with your assessment of the last few years of his career. He shows a remarkable maturity, grace and humor in the face of what must be his greatest challenge: how does dionysus grow up? How does the world's handsomest man deal with midlife? How does the bard of disenchantment/disenfranchisement deal with being embraced and loved as a cultural icon?

I have a problem with the question of Morrissey transcending his limitations, though. His continued success is evidence that he is deeper than he was generally given credit for being, but he has run up against his own ego, artistically. The boldness of his character is preventing him from fully exploring his musical options, in my opinion.

That being said, he is much more enjoyable to me now than he was in his solo heyday. Time has taken him down a peg or two, and it is his continued struggle for meaning that is fascinating to watch. One of my favorite live moments of the last few years was his version of "Still Ill" on the UK Tormentors tour. He sang the line "Am I still Ill?" and he answered himself with a vehement "Yes, thank Christ." He then proceeded to give a "performance" that was as real and sad and funny as anything I've ever seen.

 

[lottie]

It is very difficult to express in words alone how morrissey changed my life,
he has enriched it in every way, (excpet financially)
he has made me realise that there are a few more of us decent intelligent not afraid to say so people out there.
he has given me the focus I needed at a very diffiuclt time and i'd hate to think where i mgiht be now if it weren't for him.

all these things and more that i will be grateful for forever, and I will never waver in my defense/admiration of him.
in fact i (and this is meant in a totally unsychophantic way) I really would cease to be the person i am/lose the will to live without him in my life.

i shutup now K!!!

 

[The Seeker of Good Songs]

I spend much more time on the Internet since knowing (of) him.

 

[Worm]

It is so true. Oscar did champion self-knowledge through pleasure (a wonderful philosophy, to a certain extent ). It was the tragedy, however, that made him a saint. That trial and imprisonment redefined all that had gone before. Maybe it would take an external tragedy at this point to bring out Morrissey's version of "De Profundis." It would be a remarkable thing to hear, don't you think? I sincerely hope that no such thing happens - he deserves to be as happy as he's made so many people. Still, imagine if Oscar had just carried on as he was, without making his fatal error. He would be remembered as a very witty fellow who wrote some great plays and a book or two, made fantastic conversation, and worshipped blue-and-white porcelain.

Yes, but a "De Profundis" can't be repeated by Morrissey. A fall like Wilde's can't be replicated in a society without shame.

I have a problem with the question of Morrissey transcending his limitations, though. His continued success is evidence that he is deeper than he was generally given credit for being, but he has run up against his own ego, artistically. The boldness of his character is preventing him from fully exploring his musical options, in my opinion.

Exactly right. His ego is keeping him back because he assumes that "All We Need Is Him". I've long thought that he has tried to push himself into the foreground as the exclusive attraction in the music-- meaning no strong collaborators. Of course Alain and the others are very good at what they do, but it won't sound quite as brilliant as it could until Morrissey insists on working with players and songwriters who stand in relation to other musicians as he himself stands to other vocalists and lyricists.

That being said, he is much more enjoyable to me now than he was in his solo heyday. Time has taken him down a peg or two, and it is his continued struggle for meaning that is fascinating to watch. One of my favorite live moments of the last few years was his version of "Still Ill" on the UK Tormentors tour. He sang the line "Am I still Ill?" and he answered himself with a vehement "Yes, thank Christ." He then proceeded to give a "performance" that was as real and sad and funny as anything I've ever seen.

Yep. The only way to beat the cult of well-being that dominates our civilization is to declare oneself sick. An unnecessary exertion, it turns out, because the definition of "sick" changes so much and so steadily that one merely has to stay alive for a few decades in order to find oneself, in the minds of the public, on the wrong side of eccentric.

 

[Scarlet Ibis]

He's influenced my life in very many ways. He's really helped make me who I am, actually.

I... find that if I try to type it out that I feel silly and vulnerable. I don't think I'd be as fulfilled a person if I hadn't ever encountered him though.

Plus, when I was a teen, he really saved me. I had a terrible time from age... birth until 22. Now things are peachy.

 

[bored]

I think that his lyrics changed my opinion of music quite a bit. It made me set higher standards and turned me into a music snob. It made me focus or even obsess on the negative aspects of life.

 

[oye terence]

I think that his lyrics changed my opinion of music quite a bit. It made me set higher standards and turned me into a music snob. It made me focus or even obsess on the negative aspects of life.

hello good sir!

I still owe you a drink.