Wikileaks story

Why would you assume that does not already happen? The only difference is that Assange, as far as we know, is loyal to no state. He posts everything he gets, regardless of who it favors, doesn't he? The fact that it seem most detrimental to United States interests is indicative only of the fact that the United States is up to the most covert trouble.

It may happen. I believe China is a fully paid up member though. (could be wrong)

My question is mainly to do with public interest and the right to know. For those who feel he should be strung up and quartered for publishing state secrets and classified information, would they feel differently if the information was sourced from a non-western country?
 
So you subscribe to the "no snitching" philosophy? That's a gross perversion of "those who live in glass houses..." That's one root reason America is in such a mess--and is dragging the rest of the world with it. We're stirring up more trouble in the Middle East, while pretending that we are making peace. That's fundamentally not okay.

No, I don't subscribe to the "no snitching" philosophy. I subscribe to the philosophy that if you're entrusted with access to routine classified information, it's not okay to put 250,000 documents (the vast majority of whom you haven't even read) on a disc and give it to someone who intends to publish them. If you do that, you are not in the business of snitching, you are in the business of creating pandemonium for no good or legitimate reason.

"Snitching"? Why do people have this idea that the Wikileaks publishing is all about uncovering hidden crimes? They are publishing 250,000 foreign service cables, 99.999% of whom have nothing to do with any such thing. What they do is lay bare the inner workings of the US foreigbn policy system and its evaluations. It's the international politics equivalent of someone publishing your f***ing diary in the local paper. Again - there is nothing remotely wrong with keeping this information secret - on the contrary, it's a basic precondition for any such system to function, and there is no diplomatic system in the world who functions otherwise.

Not to labor the point, but it seems it can't be taken for granted. You have a State Department, and you have a three digit number of diplomatic stations around the world. The task of these stations is not just to promote american interests, but also to facilitate communication between the authorities and above all, to independently analyse anything of interest. Thousands of well-qualified people around the globe are daily occupied with talking to key people (who tell them things they would never tell a journalist) and of producing analysis and assessments of political developments, thinking and positions on various international issues and so on. On this basis they produce analysis, which they send home. In the other direction go instructions, clarification of own positions and so on. Thus turn the wheels that, hopefully, result in the people entrusted with US foreign relations understanding what goes on in the world and why - and in other countries understanding what the Us want or think. These are the basic cogs of the wheels of diplomacy. Exactly the same description could be given of any other country.


Where laws are broken and serious excesses committed, there is always a legitimate case for whistleblowing. And if Wikileaks (and Manning) had stuck to cases like that, it would have been a different issue. But they aren't.

Generally the documents Wikileaks will publish won't include any wrongdoing. But they will cause damage. For instance, they published a document that included an evaluation saying (EU negotiation head) Hermann van Rompuy pretty much despaired of the Cancun summit achieving anything already a year in advance. How do you think that affected the EUs negotiating position in Cancun? Do you think it made it easier for van Rompuy to persuade sceptics that we really need a good climate agreement right now?

Oh, and I can't wait for juicy cables from one of the big banks, because what we really need right now is another huge bank going bust, or requiring a billion dollar bailout. that'd be constructive.

These people think that if they just expose everything to daylight evil will burst like trollls, and everything will be better. They don't have a clue what they're doing. At least I hope not, because if they do they are worse than I think.

We're scared to learn of what's been done in our names (not just us Americans, you're all in on it, too) and of what the effects will be. Kass is afraid for the tiny, local middlemen who will be blamed, but doesn't acknowledge that the information Assange has made available steps higher up the ladder of blame. Those hapless citizens are in danger--we are all in danger--not because of the revelations, but because of the substance of them.

The substance has for the most part been entirely unsurprising. Apart from a handful of scandals, I would if anything say that the substance that has emerged shows that the State Departement is capable of good and realistic analysis.

Speaking generally to your point, what the negative reaction to Assange and the WikiLeaks affair shows about many people, across all spectrums of society, is not just that people hate snitches, but that people are supportive and in many cases enthusiastic about the state's right to exert unlimited power outside the jurisdiction of the law, in secret and without answering to any authority outside itself.

Sorry my friend, but on this one you're simply totally letting your imagination run off with you. It really is very simple. Getting this kind of documents compromised on this scale is a huge blow to any foreign policy apparatus. It does harm everywhere. It does to your foreign policy what compulsively speaking everything that goes through your head does to your social life. The problem with these leaks is not that they uncover scandals, but that they uncover the workings of what is a perfectly legitimate foreign policy apparatus which perfectly legitimately depends on confidentiality as a self-evident precondition for access to the sort of information you need in order to make good analysis. Hermann van Rompuy isn't going to give you his blunt and honest assessment of how he thinks Cancun will turn out if he has to count on reading it in the newspapers the next day.

To argue this is not remotely to be "enthusiastic about the state's right to exert unlimited power outside the jurisdiction of the law, in secret and without answering to any authority outside itself." - that is to put the whole issue on an absurd footing.
 
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Why would you assume that does not already happen? The only difference is that Assange, as far as we know, is loyal to no state. He posts everything he gets, regardless of who it favors, doesn't he? The fact that it seem most detrimental to United States interests is indicative only of the fact that the United States is up to the most covert trouble.


:)

Do you really, seriously believe that?

Also, you need to get a basic overview of the facts. The reason why the Wikileaks documents all pertain to the US is very simple: It is US State Dept documents that have been leaked. In other words, he is publishing American documents - all of whom affect the United states.
 
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:)

Do you really, seriously believe that?

Also, you need to get a basic overview of the facts. The reason why the Wikileaks documents all pertain to the US is very simple: It is US State Dept documents that have been leaked.

This particular batch, yes. They've also listed documents from other countries. Basic overview...
 
Sorry my friend, but on this one you're simply totally letting your imagination run off with you. It really is very simple. Getting this kind of documents compromised on this scale is a huge blow to any foreign policy apparatus.

To argue this is not remotely to be "enthusiastic about the state's right to exert unlimited power outside the jurisdiction of the law, in secret and without answering to any authority outside itself." - that is to put the whole issue on an absurd footing.

I recognize the necessity for confidentiality and trust in diplomacy and statecraft. The bulk of the WikiLeaks documents is probably an instance of exposing the government's dirty linen in public and will only needlessly hinder diplomacy. There is certainly a danger to the interests of the average American, not to mention government officials and interests around the world. Most of what you say is accurate.

The question is, what kind of diplomacy is it hindering? Is it the usual tug of war that goes on behind the scenes between governments? Or is it gangsterish bullying on the part of "the indispensable nation", the U.S., against the other nations of the world? To take the one case I cited in a post above, I'm sorry, I don't approve of my country tampering with the Spanish judicial system to cover up crimes committed by Americans or American-controlled assets, and I would rather know the truth about our overseas activities than not. It's lamentable that WikiLeaks dumped a huge amount of documents on our hands that do not pertain to crimes, as these leaked memos and files will simply gum up diplomatic relations that would otherwise be normal and innocuous. Maybe Assange and his associates made a mistake in not better filtering the documents. That argument I can agree with. However, in light of any other method of exposing the facts of U.S. foreign policy in action, we have to accept what is given to us in the way it is given to us.

With respect to "absurd footing", you may not have seen as many American legislators, layfolk, "journalists", and "public intellectuals" denounce Assange as I have, but believe me, the upshot of their anger is exactly as I describe. For a long time, but especially since 9/11, there is a firm belief that the U.S. is good, the rest of the world is evil, and if Uncle Sam needs to cheat a little to wipe out the bad guys, well, that's perfectly alright. There is an aggressive mentality at work here, in the corridors of the Pentagon, in the White House, in the popular culture, and out in the street, which is ready to abandon the law to fight our enemies in any form they take. In aggregate, if not in every case, it amounts to a kind of mass hysteria. I don't know if WikiLeaks will make the least bit of difference, but right now there is simply nothing else available to run up against, and possibly destroy, the crazy, homicidal, suicidal illusions of the American empire. The good journalists who are bringing out important stories are ignored, the mainstream media's news outlets are sticking their heads in the sand, and the leadership of the country is either committing war crimes (Bush, maybe Obama) or tacitly endorsing past war crimes and helping establishing precedent for future crimes (definitely Obama). I'm not suggesting Assange is a hero, but I think it's worth weighing the damage he may cause against the damage the U.S. has, is, and will continue to cause in the world.
 
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I recognize the necessity for confidentiality and trust in diplomacy and statecraft. The bulk of the WikiLeaks documents is probably an instance of exposing the government's dirty linen in public and will only needlessly hinder diplomacy. There is certainly a danger to the interests of the average American, not to mention government officials and interests around the world. Most of what you say is accurate.

The question is, what kind of diplomacy is it hindering? Is it the usual tug of war that goes on behind the scenes between governments? Or is it gangsterish bullying on the part of "the indispensable nation", the U.S., against the other nations of the world?

How do you think most other countries would look if their diplomatic correspondance were subjected to a leak like that? I don't think an assumption that US foreign policy is being conducted with particularly gangsterish methods is tenable - if anything, rather the contrary. On the whole.

To take the one case I cited in a post above, I'm sorry, I don't approve of my country tampering with the Spanish judicial system to cover up crimes committed by Americans or American-controlled assets, and I would rather know the truth about our overseas activities than not. It's lamentable that WikiLeaks dumped a huge amount of documents on our hands that do not pertain to crimes, as these leaked memos and files will simply gum up diplomatic relations that would otherwise be normal and innocuous. Maybe Assange and his associates made a mistake in not better filtering the documents. That argument I can agree with. However, in light of any other method of exposing the facts of U.S. foreign policy in action, we have to accept what is given to us in the way it is given to us.

With respect to "absurd footing", you may not have seen as many American legislators, layfolk, "journalists", and "public intellectuals" denounce Assange as I have, but believe me, the upshot of their anger is exactly as I describe. For a long time, but especially since 9/11, there is a firm belief that the U.S. is good, the rest of the world is evil, and if Uncle Sam needs to cheat a little to wipe out the bad guys, well, that's perfectly alright. There is an aggressive mentality at work here, in the corridors of the Pentagon, in the White House, in the popular culture, and out in the street, which is ready to abandon the law to fight our enemies in any form they take. In aggregate, if not in every case, it amounts to a kind of mass hysteria. I don't know if WikiLeaks will make the least bit of difference, but right now there is simply nothing else available to run up against, and possibly destroy, the crazy, homicidal, suicidal illusions of the American empire. The good journalists who are bringing out important stories are ignored, the mainstream media's news outlets are sticking their heads in the sand, and the leadership of the country is either committing war crimes (Bush, maybe Obama) or tacitly endorsing past war crimes and helping establishing precedent for future crimes (definitely Obama). I'm not suggesting Assange is a hero by any means, but I think it's worth weighing the damage he may cause against the damage the U.S. has, is, and will continue to cause in the world.

Again I think you misjudge on which side of the moral divide the US mostly finds itself in international affairs (There is less Mass Hysteria in the state Department than many other place, I would think). But I sympathise with your refusal to accept wrongdoings in your name. I would feel the same way. I would also think that it would be in the country's best interest to make sure that stuff like Abu Ghraib didn't happen again. But this is not the way.
 
How do you think most other countries would look if their diplomatic correspondance were subjected to a leak like that? I don't think an assumption that US foreign policy is being conducted with particularly gangsterish methods is tenable - if anything, rather the contrary. On the whole.

I'm with you to an extent, here. I understand the damage it can do. I also understand that even "the good guys" play rough sometimes. Sometimes you twist arms. Sometimes you break legs. Okay. Nor do I need to be told there are evil people in the world. One of my good friends, with a job giving him low-level but still privileged access in Washington, assured me that when it came to the number of bad people looking to harm Americans, within and without our borders, the public didn't know the half of it. I get it.

Still, I have to maintain that a broader perspective is necessary. There is nothing in the world right now that can get in the way of the United States devolving into the most lethal despotic regime in human history. I know, I know, you're rolling your eyes at my hyperbole. But you need to think about what may be done as well as what already has been done. Project out a few years, or a few decades, and ask yourself what, if anything, is going to prevent the United States from locking up its own citizens in a brutally authoritarian state and unleashing untold destruction on other nations around the world. Washington has lost its mind. So, yes, I lament the pointless release of information that doesn't pertain to crimes, but what are the alternatives? And do we have to wait until President Palin decides she'd like to give Iran and North Korea a little "nuclear makeover" before we realize it's all gone downhill much faster than we thought?

What are the alternatives, when Khaled El-Masri can write an op-ed piece about his mistreatment in the Los Angeles Times, back in 2007, and get nowhere? In it, El-Masri, acknowledged as innocent by the U.S. government-- he was arrested because German border officials got one letter in his name wrong-- wrote: "I was handed over to the American Central Intelligence Agency and was stripped, severely beaten, shackled, dressed in a diaper, injected with drugs, chained to the floor of a plane and flown to Afghanistan, where I was imprisoned in a foul dungeon for more than four months. Long after the American government realized that I was an entirely innocent man, I was blindfolded, put back on a plane, flown to Europe and left on a hilltop in Albania — without any explanation or apology for the nightmare that I had endured."

A WikiLeaks document shows that top CIA brass, as well as the National Security Council, including Condoleezza Rice, might have known and perhaps authorized his imprisonment. (Rice eventually had to order his release.) Other documents show the U.S. was involved in trying to have the German government stop its prosecution of thirteen U.S. agents responsible for El-Masri's kidnapping, torture, and abandonment. These documents do not expose the crime, because the crime was well-known three years ago, but they do bring into sharper focus who was involved inside the government. These are hugely important facts to bring out. The fact that tens of thousands of otherwise harmless documents were also leaked is lamentable, but I am sick and tired of hearing about American abuses committed in my name. If the baby goes with the bathwater, so be it. Tell me a better way. I'm all ears.

I would feel the same way. I would also think that it would be in the country's best interest to make sure that stuff like Abu Ghraib didn't happen again. But this is not the way.

Why is it not the way? You're a student of history. You know that one of the great examples of fighting a war honorably-- even allowing for many crimes, like Dresden, the A-bomb, etc-- was World War II, as fought by the Allies, and particularly America. We did not torture, we did not commit atrocities and look the other way, we did not have to get down in the gutter with the Nazis to beat them. We helped rebuild the defeated nations. The evil in the world today is not worse than the Imperial Japanese, the Italian fascists, and the Nazis, right? Are you telling me there isn't some middle ground whereby the United States can pursue its interests without becoming the evil it once fought against? I'm not an idealist, Qvist, I just know there are alternatives to what the U.S. is doing.
 
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I'm with you to an extent, here. I understand the damage it can do. I also understand that even "the good guys" play rough sometimes. Sometimes you twist arms. Sometimes you break legs. Okay. Nor do I need to be told there are evil people in the world. One of my good friends, with a job giving him low-level but still privileged access in Washington, assured me that when it came to the number of bad people looking to harm Americans, within and without our borders, the public didn't know the half of it. I get it.

Still, I have to maintain that a broader perspective is necessary. There is nothing in the world right now that can get in the way of the United States devolving into the most lethal despotic regime in human history. I know, I know, you're rolling your eyes at my hyperbole. But you need to think about what may be done as well as what already has been done. Project out a few years, or a few decades, and ask yourself what, if anything, is going to prevent the United States from locking up its own citizens in a brutally authoritarian state and unleashing untold destruction on other nations around the world. Washington has lost its mind. So, yes, I lament the pointless release of information that doesn't pertain to crimes, but what are the alternatives? And do we have to wait until President Palin decides she'd like to give Iran and North Korea a little "nuclear makeover" before we realize it's all gone downhill much faster than we thought?

What are the alternatives, when Khaled El-Masri can write an op-ed piece about his mistreatment in the Los Angeles Times, back in 2007, and get nowhere? In it, El-Masri, acknowledged as innocent by the U.S. government-- he was arrested because German border officials got one letter in his name wrong-- wrote: "I was handed over to the American Central Intelligence Agency and was stripped, severely beaten, shackled, dressed in a diaper, injected with drugs, chained to the floor of a plane and flown to Afghanistan, where I was imprisoned in a foul dungeon for more than four months. Long after the American government realized that I was an entirely innocent man, I was blindfolded, put back on a plane, flown to Europe and left on a hilltop in Albania — without any explanation or apology for the nightmare that I had endured."

A WikiLeaks document shows that top CIA brass, as well as the National Security Council, including Condoleezza Rice, might have known and perhaps authorized his imprisonment. (Rice eventually had to order his release.) Other documents show the U.S. was involved in trying to have the German government stop its prosecution of thirteen U.S. agents responsible for El-Masri's kidnapping, torture, and abandonment. These documents do not expose the crime, because the crime was well-known three years ago, but they do bring into sharper focus who was involved inside the government. These are hugely important facts to bring out. The fact that tens of thousands of otherwise harmless documents were also leaked is lamentable, but I am sick and tired of hearing about American abuses committed in my name. If the baby goes with the bathwater, so be it. Tell me a better way. I'm all ears.

Well, it would have been easy for Assange to ensure that the baby didn't go out with the bathwater. They could very well have chosen to restrict publication to documents dealing with cases such as the above. If they had, they would have occupied a different moral ground, done far less damage and had a much stronger case that what they're doing is in the public interest. But they didn't. Rather than attempting to strengthen and uphold standards of legality and critical press, they're embarking on a systemic crusade, as if the opponent was not misuse of power but the whole international system. That's what pisses everyone off. Believe me, it's not just in the US that people are crying for Assange's head on a platter, and that's not out of sentimental attachment to America.


Why is it not the way? You're a student of history. You know that one of the great examples of fighting a war honorably-- even allowing for many crimes, like Dresden, the A-bomb, etc-- was World War II, as fought by the Allies, and particularly America. We did not torture, we did not commit atrocities and look the other way, we did not have to get down in the gutter with the Nazis to beat them. We helped rebuild the defeated nations. The evil in the world today is not worse than the Imperial Japanese, the Italian fascists, and the Nazis, right? Are you telling me there isn't some middle ground whereby the United States can pursue its interests without becoming the evil it once fought against? I'm not an idealist, Qvist, I just know there are alternatives to what the U.S. is doing.

No, I meant that leaking 250,000 State Dept cables is not the way. :)

Your historical description is right, so is your moral argument and I would call myself essentially an idealist.
 
Well, it would have been easy for Assange to ensure that the baby didn't go out with the bathwater. They could very well have chosen to restrict publication to documents dealing with cases such as the above. If they had, they would have occupied a different moral ground, done far less damage and had a much stronger case that what they're doing is in the public interest. But they didn't. Rather than attempting to strengthen and uphold standards of legality and critical press, they're embarking on a systemic crusade, as if the opponent was not misuse of power but the whole international system. That's what pisses everyone off. Believe me, it's not just in the US that people are crying for Assange's head on a platter, and that's not out of sentimental attachment to America.




No, I meant that leaking 250,000 State Dept cables is not the way. :)

Your historical description is right, so is your moral argument and I would call myself essentially an idealist.

Transparency is the word of the day, and wouldn't edited documents thwart the goal of transparency? Who is to say what's relevant and what isn't? Anyway, I kind of like the perspective and scale provided by the diplomatic community snickering over Qadafi's mistress/nurse, juxtaposed with our deeper "secrets."
 
I like what a lot of you had to say so far :)
except Qvist, of course :rolleyes:
but the best part of this story for me was hearing Glenn Beck say:
"sex by surprise" :lbf:
 
Well, it would have been easy for Assange to ensure that the baby didn't go out with the bathwater. They could very well have chosen to restrict publication to documents dealing with cases such as the above. If they had, they would have occupied a different moral ground, done far less damage and had a much stronger case that what they're doing is in the public interest. But they didn't. Rather than attempting to strengthen and uphold standards of legality and critical press, they're embarking on a systemic crusade, as if the opponent was not misuse of power but the whole international system. That's what pisses everyone off. Believe me, it's not just in the US that people are crying for Assange's head on a platter, and that's not out of sentimental attachment to America.

Okay. I see your distinction and accept the validity of your criticism. In dumping the documents indiscriminately, Assange was foolish and maybe he deserves a long prison sentence, complete with daily shower visits from Big Bubba over in Cell Block D.

In the interest of not appearing too agreeable :rolleyes:, I'll throw out this little nugget: while I essentially agree with you that a handful of rogue actors should not be applauded for recklessly endangering the "international system", I do think Assange, for all his sins, has perhaps provided us all a moment to weigh the value of said system. As with the financial crisis of 2008, everyone ought to at least entertain the following question, even if just for a second: "Is saving a system this corrupt truly preferable to a global meltdown?"

As a parent you will think that a fatuous question, I'm sure. It is merely a question. :)

Your historical description is right, so is your moral argument and I would call myself essentially an idealist.

Well, if you are an idealist, and I have no reason to doubt it, perhaps the difference between your perspective, and the view espoused by PFTLT and me, comes down to the fact that you're not both an idealist and an American. I think if you were you might have an extra twinge of anger for what's happened here, because it feels an awful lot like a great nation's suicidal self-betrayal. Even in the "glory days" of Reagan I knew America was far from sinless, but there was still a sense that the wrongdoers were just a few misguided good guys who cut one corner too many. The CIA dropped a bag of cash off at a death squad camp in Central America, a wayward patriot sold arms to Iran, Wall Street got filthy rich but it was limited to a few anomalies, and so on. Now I have to read about kidnapping and torture going unpunished by "sane" people in Washington, the Supreme Court lets corporations buy elections, our national psyche is trapped in the loving embrace of a beauty queen who shoots wolves from a helicopter, and the only one talking any sense is a f***ing TV comedian. I find it hard to pardon Assange's actions, yes, but in the present environment I find it even harder to feel any sympathy for the system he has momentarily jolted.

This is a case in which it might be said nobody really has a totally defensible position; difficult to say in the middle of this long night in which all cats are grey.
 
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Between 2-3 million people had access to the cables, so I don't think they were highly sensitive to begin with (not having read them all of course).
Also, they don't only deal with US but have also revealed conversations between Chinese diplomats regarding former Aust. Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. In this instance, there poor regard for him has perhaps shown that the Labor Party was right in getting rid of him as PM.

I think the publics 'right to know' is paramount as it allows us to not bury our heads in the sand and really, with all the tricky language politicians use it is a good thing to know their true beliefs and they can stop hiding between 'weasel words'.
 
Between 2-3 million people had access to the cables, so I don't think they were highly sensitive to begin with (not having read them all of course).

Of course they were sensitive, that's why they were restricted. 2-3 million people had the clearance and position to read them, which reflects pretty much the size of the US government and armed forces and which doesn't neccessarily mean that all of them had instant access to every document. And even if they had, they all - save Manning - can obviously be relied upon.

Transparency is the word of the day, and wouldn't edited documents thwart the goal of transparency? Who is to say what's relevant and what isn't? Anyway, I kind of like the perspective and scale provided by the diplomatic community snickering over Qadafi's mistress/nurse, juxtaposed with our deeper "secrets."

I think the publics 'right to know' is paramount as it allows us to not bury our heads in the sand and really, with all the tricky language politicians use it is a good thing to know their true beliefs and they can stop hiding between 'weasel words'.

Seriously, this is like talking to five-year olds. Do you imagine that you can run a government, or a business, with full public access to every scrap of paper produced internally? If it really isn't obvious why that is utterly impossible, I give up.
 
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I can't read all this but my view is that if the cables were acquired illegally that is of course a crime but if they weren't I don't think publishing them is. The people have a right to know about the deals to lose the prisoners left at Guantanamo Bay, for example. Overall he doesn't seem to have good character as when he threatened to leak more data as a sort of bargaining chip in his own personal interests. I'm not sure what to think about him suddenly being a rapist though.
 
Seriously, this is like talking to five-year olds. Do you imagine that you can run a government, or a business, with full public access to every scrap of paper produced internally? If it really isn't obvious why that is utterly impossible, I give up.

Very young people have a hard time dealing with unfairness and injustice. So do I. I know this is the way the world works, but there is a difference between not needing to know the fine points of my country's diplomatic tactics, or the salaries of my colleagues at work, and having the right and the desire to know if gross crimes against humanity are being carried out by my country, in my name and purportedly in my best interests--which they are not. I also demand to know that I work for an ethical firm. I walked out of the first job I'd had in nearly a year, because I discovered they were routinely and happily breaking federal laws regarding taxation and immigration. I refuse to participate in that.

I live in a country which insists it can't afford to pay for basic healthcare for everyone, while it spends billions carrying out mass murder to benefit corporate interests. That's not acceptable to me. If taking that view makes me sound like a spoiled, whiny toddler, so be it.

I can't read all this but my view is that if the cables were acquired illegally that is of course a crime but if they weren't I don't think publishing them is. The people have a right to know about the deals to lose the prisoners left at Guantanamo Bay, for example. Overall he doesn't seem to have good character as when he threatened to leak more data as a sort of bargaining chip in his own personal interests. I'm not sure what to think about him suddenly being a rapist though.

That's what she said.... seriously, when I first read the profile of Assange in the New Yorker, he came across as a bit of an obnoxious shit-kicker. And perhaps that's his personality. That's neither here nor there, now.
 
Okay. Stop. This is post #56 in this thread. From post #57 onward, please specify whether you are arguing about one of the following:

1) The tiny percentage of WikiLeaks documents which paint a damning portrait of U.S. foreign policy.

or

2) The overwhelming majority of WikiLeaks documents which do nothing but embarrass the United States' diplomatic apparatus and needlessly cause harm.
 
Okay. Stop. This is post #56 in this thread. From post #57 onward, please specify whether you are arguing about one of the following:

1) The tiny percentage of WikiLeaks documents which paint a damning portrait of U.S. foreign policy.

or

2) The overwhelming majority of WikiLeaks documents which do nothing but embarrass the United States' diplomatic apparatus and needlessly cause harm.

3. Rape, He Said, She Said, "sex by surprise"
 
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