unruly boy
So very sickened.
Up there with his very, very best. A country mile ahead (see what I did there!?) of Quarry but still not as good and Vauxhall and I, probably ties with Viva Hate in my humble.
ROTT...Your Final Verdict?
- Thread starter Lost
- Start date
Theo
Active Member
Everyone knows Ringleader is the worst Morrissey album since Kill Uncle. Some are correct that the production was bad. Others are correct that the band is stale and are tapped out. Adding more players and instruments to the mix made the album better than it would've been, but it can't cover up the un-inspired songwriting. The band have settled into an "I'm just a sessionist/lawnmower part" attitude (you can even see this in how they perform on tour).
It's also the dullest and least fun Morrissey album. Duller than Kill Uncle, actually, though it's better than Kill Uncle in most respects. There was a brief period where I was finding enthusiasm for the album (or trying to force myself), but now I rarely feel like sitting through it. His best albums have never gotten tiring unless I listen to them 5 times in a row in one day. Ringleader makes me tired and looking around for something better to play less than one minute into the opening song.
Someone once said that a great album has at least three great songs and no bad songs. It's hard for anyone who listens to Morrissey a lot to admit that any of his songs are flat-out bad, and I'm not gonna say any of these are. Even on his worst songs there's still enjoyment to be had. But if I were asked for a list of the worst Morrissey songs, a whole handful of Ringleader songs would be chosen, particularly the last two tracks. I like albums that begin and end well. There's some good stuff in the middle of Ringleader, but it begins poorly and ends like a smelly piece of shit.
As far as great songs..."Work of Art" and perhaps "Pigsty," but only "Work of Art" for sure. So, it doesn't have enough great songs, unlike Quarry.
I don't know why people are surprised that people like Quarry more. As far as I can tell, a bunch of the people in this new and not improved Morrissey-Solo forum became fans on the strength of You Are The Quarry. Even the b-sides were much stronger, which tends to happen when you're in a creative peak. The best b-side for Ringleader is just a cover - "Human Being." (Note: I haven't heard the b-sides from the final single yet. The fact that I didn't rush out and get 'em shows how deflating the recent effort was. I'll get 'em all eventually; just not a high priority.)
It's also the dullest and least fun Morrissey album. Duller than Kill Uncle, actually, though it's better than Kill Uncle in most respects. There was a brief period where I was finding enthusiasm for the album (or trying to force myself), but now I rarely feel like sitting through it. His best albums have never gotten tiring unless I listen to them 5 times in a row in one day. Ringleader makes me tired and looking around for something better to play less than one minute into the opening song.
Someone once said that a great album has at least three great songs and no bad songs. It's hard for anyone who listens to Morrissey a lot to admit that any of his songs are flat-out bad, and I'm not gonna say any of these are. Even on his worst songs there's still enjoyment to be had. But if I were asked for a list of the worst Morrissey songs, a whole handful of Ringleader songs would be chosen, particularly the last two tracks. I like albums that begin and end well. There's some good stuff in the middle of Ringleader, but it begins poorly and ends like a smelly piece of shit.
As far as great songs..."Work of Art" and perhaps "Pigsty," but only "Work of Art" for sure. So, it doesn't have enough great songs, unlike Quarry.
I don't know why people are surprised that people like Quarry more. As far as I can tell, a bunch of the people in this new and not improved Morrissey-Solo forum became fans on the strength of You Are The Quarry. Even the b-sides were much stronger, which tends to happen when you're in a creative peak. The best b-side for Ringleader is just a cover - "Human Being." (Note: I haven't heard the b-sides from the final single yet. The fact that I didn't rush out and get 'em shows how deflating the recent effort was. I'll get 'em all eventually; just not a high priority.)
Last edited:
Mmmmmm
Dangling Member
Aptly put Theo.
ROTT is the first album I've not bought (I started with "The Smiths" in '84). Downloaded and listened and felt disappointed. Just plain lackluster. Even the best tracks are not terribly memorable and unlike "Kill Uncle" the lyrics are unimaginative and stale. Musically it is nondescript throughout.
The spell I was under is broken.
ROTT is the first album I've not bought (I started with "The Smiths" in '84). Downloaded and listened and felt disappointed. Just plain lackluster. Even the best tracks are not terribly memorable and unlike "Kill Uncle" the lyrics are unimaginative and stale. Musically it is nondescript throughout.
The spell I was under is broken.
D
Dave
Guest
byrondeniro
New Member
it's good, i like it. why do folk insist on forcing their opinions on others?
at the end of the day do you think Morrissey would give a flying one about your analysis...........lol or anyone else
at the end of the day do you think Morrissey would give a flying one about your analysis...........lol or anyone else
Roma De Moz
Fat Children Took My Life
Ringleader failed to scale the artistic heights it set out to. The move to Rome, collaboration with Ennio Morricone, and production from Tony Visconti all sounds splendid on paper, but the musicians failed to fully grasp such opportunity by the reigns and make something truly innovative out of them, in my opinion.
In this way that the album was marketed, I was expecting a lush, epic, orchestrated Moz opera. Emotional ballads one minute, and bombastic Italian rock-out's the next. I thought the liberation that Rome and sex had for Morrissey would inspire him no end lyrically, and that the pop poetry we knew would only shine as a result.
There are moments of brilliance on the album: the music soars in places, and the lyrics occasionally hit the nail on the head, but the whole thing felt as if the musicians and Morrissey were holding back. I call this 'Southpaw Grammar'-syndrome: he had attempted something genuinely 'different' and 'adventurous' with that album, and for the most part, it failed to successfully pay of with the audience. Part of me feels Morrissey was tentative to take that extra leap with this record as a result of that prior experience, and recorded Ringleader with only one foot in the door so to speak. The same can be said for Maladjusted, which felt like Moz was reluctantly returning to the musical ways of old after SG got such a gruelling. While I rate Ringleader above Maladjusted any day of the week, the same principle applies: Morrissey was circling the pool when he should have been diving in,
With the build-up to Ringleader though, everything seemed to fit and the circumstances of his eight studio album spelt wonderful things. It really did ooze the potential of being one of the best records in his canon, simply by the premise. The diversity in sound isn't to be denied, but it doesn't come of nearly as unique as it could have done.
As I say, there really are great moments: Dear God, Please Help Me is absolutely sublime, Youngest is a strong and haunting single, and Future and Hero are amongst some of my favourite tracks in a long time. I just feel very frustrated at times when I listen to the album, because I know it could have been so much more. It isn't the masterpiece it should have been, but it is a solid album. Not as consistent as Quarry, but more ambitious.
In this way that the album was marketed, I was expecting a lush, epic, orchestrated Moz opera. Emotional ballads one minute, and bombastic Italian rock-out's the next. I thought the liberation that Rome and sex had for Morrissey would inspire him no end lyrically, and that the pop poetry we knew would only shine as a result.
There are moments of brilliance on the album: the music soars in places, and the lyrics occasionally hit the nail on the head, but the whole thing felt as if the musicians and Morrissey were holding back. I call this 'Southpaw Grammar'-syndrome: he had attempted something genuinely 'different' and 'adventurous' with that album, and for the most part, it failed to successfully pay of with the audience. Part of me feels Morrissey was tentative to take that extra leap with this record as a result of that prior experience, and recorded Ringleader with only one foot in the door so to speak. The same can be said for Maladjusted, which felt like Moz was reluctantly returning to the musical ways of old after SG got such a gruelling. While I rate Ringleader above Maladjusted any day of the week, the same principle applies: Morrissey was circling the pool when he should have been diving in,
With the build-up to Ringleader though, everything seemed to fit and the circumstances of his eight studio album spelt wonderful things. It really did ooze the potential of being one of the best records in his canon, simply by the premise. The diversity in sound isn't to be denied, but it doesn't come of nearly as unique as it could have done.
As I say, there really are great moments: Dear God, Please Help Me is absolutely sublime, Youngest is a strong and haunting single, and Future and Hero are amongst some of my favourite tracks in a long time. I just feel very frustrated at times when I listen to the album, because I know it could have been so much more. It isn't the masterpiece it should have been, but it is a solid album. Not as consistent as Quarry, but more ambitious.
Last edited:
drowning girl
Team Tseng
From the beginning (=release) I didn´t like ROTT very much.
I had no connection to any of the songs, I was not very impressed by the lyrics and I hated the way Visconti had produced it.
BUT...I heard those songs live and they sound really good and powerful.
For me there are studioROTT and liveROTT.
I don´t know if I will ever listen to studioROTT again, because of two reasons: 1. Haven´t listened to it since the first week after release and didn´t miss anything and
2. liveROTT sounds too good in comparison to Visconti´s old-fashioned and styleless studio work. (This proves me right: Stephen Street would have done it so much better...or Steve Lillywhite...but it´s too late)
Of course, we are people with lives and opinions and we all, more or less, somehow develop (in any possible direction).
ROTT says nothing to me about my life, but this is really okay. It´s not all about and for me.
One album has to be the least loved and for me this is ROTT while my hubby likes it...
I had no connection to any of the songs, I was not very impressed by the lyrics and I hated the way Visconti had produced it.
BUT...I heard those songs live and they sound really good and powerful.
For me there are studioROTT and liveROTT.
I don´t know if I will ever listen to studioROTT again, because of two reasons: 1. Haven´t listened to it since the first week after release and didn´t miss anything and
2. liveROTT sounds too good in comparison to Visconti´s old-fashioned and styleless studio work. (This proves me right: Stephen Street would have done it so much better...or Steve Lillywhite...but it´s too late)
Of course, we are people with lives and opinions and we all, more or less, somehow develop (in any possible direction).
ROTT says nothing to me about my life, but this is really okay. It´s not all about and for me.
One album has to be the least loved and for me this is ROTT while my hubby likes it...
C.J.M
New Member
I think its superb. i can't beleive it could be considered as bad or worse than kill uncle. At first i was not keen, it takes a few listens 2 get into it. Its really grown on me, i actually think that it has some of moz's best singles on it, i think on the streets i ran is probably the weakest song, ganglord should defientely have made it onto the album though because it really is a fantastic song.
faroffplaces
How I feel in my mind
His best or second-best after Your Arsenal, depending on the day. Mostly the former.
Persona-driven but not persona-ridden. Excellent lyrically, doesn't really run on wordplay but instead on multiple meaning and juxtaposition. The vocal schtick and interpretations are note-perfect. Endlessly gory to interpret. Funny, angsty, ecstatic, ambitious, vast.
Caveats: I think it would've been a better rock album (but a worse piece of literature) if a few tracks had been yanked and replaced with B-Sides. Somewhat overproduced, though this may have been a conscious decision. I don't get along with "At Last I Am Born."
I wonder if there's a way to poll for Morrissey's most polarizing album? I think if nothing else, we can agree that Ringleader'd make top three.
Persona-driven but not persona-ridden. Excellent lyrically, doesn't really run on wordplay but instead on multiple meaning and juxtaposition. The vocal schtick and interpretations are note-perfect. Endlessly gory to interpret. Funny, angsty, ecstatic, ambitious, vast.
Caveats: I think it would've been a better rock album (but a worse piece of literature) if a few tracks had been yanked and replaced with B-Sides. Somewhat overproduced, though this may have been a conscious decision. I don't get along with "At Last I Am Born."
I wonder if there's a way to poll for Morrissey's most polarizing album? I think if nothing else, we can agree that Ringleader'd make top three.
Born under a bad sign
Banned
I think its excellent but never listen anymore
I prefer his old stuff or the smiths...never off the player
I prefer his old stuff or the smiths...never off the player
Gregor Samsa
I straighten up, and my position is one of hope.
Well, well... It's not in his top three albums.
If I would make a list over his albums (excluding Bona Drag, since it is in fact a compilation) it would look like this:
1. Vauxhall & I
2. Your Arsenal
3. You Are The Quarry
4. Viva Hate
5. Southpaw Grammar
6. Ringleader of the tormentors
7. Maladjusted
8. Kill Uncle
But I feel that none of these albums are BAD, they're all containing quality music, some more than others of course.
ROTT does, I must say, have one of his best songs of his entire career; Life Is A Pigsty.
But my overall judgement is as follows:
A couple of great tracks(Pigsty, Anybody's hero, Dear God, YHKM), but also some quite bland tracks. The production isn't the best I've ever heard, but the lyrics are often inspired and nicely delivered. With a few exceptions of course (In the future when all's well, The Youngest...).
The melodies are quite bland as well at some points (Work of art, In the future, The father, Far-off places), and this truly irritates me.
Boz should have been more involved with this record, Tobias shouldn't have.
To conclude: It is too uneven to be called a great album, and yet it contains too many great tracks to be called a bad album.
3 out of 5 stars, or something like that...
If I would make a list over his albums (excluding Bona Drag, since it is in fact a compilation) it would look like this:
1. Vauxhall & I
2. Your Arsenal
3. You Are The Quarry
4. Viva Hate
5. Southpaw Grammar
6. Ringleader of the tormentors
7. Maladjusted
8. Kill Uncle
But I feel that none of these albums are BAD, they're all containing quality music, some more than others of course.
ROTT does, I must say, have one of his best songs of his entire career; Life Is A Pigsty.
But my overall judgement is as follows:
A couple of great tracks(Pigsty, Anybody's hero, Dear God, YHKM), but also some quite bland tracks. The production isn't the best I've ever heard, but the lyrics are often inspired and nicely delivered. With a few exceptions of course (In the future when all's well, The Youngest...).
The melodies are quite bland as well at some points (Work of art, In the future, The father, Far-off places), and this truly irritates me.
Boz should have been more involved with this record, Tobias shouldn't have.
To conclude: It is too uneven to be called a great album, and yet it contains too many great tracks to be called a bad album.
3 out of 5 stars, or something like that...
lilybett
Pheobe W Caulfield
My final verdict is this:
In my opinion, ROTT has some real gems on it but also some real mediocrity. Life Is A Pigsty, I Will See You In Far-Off Places and You Have Killed Me being gems and Dear God..., At Last I Am Born and On These Streets I Ran being the dullards. And the remaining songs are just decent tracks.
I find myself skipping over Dear God... etc, I think they're that poor. But I think Life Is A Pigsty etc are so fooking good that they compensate for the weaker efforts. I think these songs will go down in history as classics: imho, Pigsty is as good as any Smiffs track. Or, at least they will for me.
In my opinion, ROTT has some real gems on it but also some real mediocrity. Life Is A Pigsty, I Will See You In Far-Off Places and You Have Killed Me being gems and Dear God..., At Last I Am Born and On These Streets I Ran being the dullards. And the remaining songs are just decent tracks.
I find myself skipping over Dear God... etc, I think they're that poor. But I think Life Is A Pigsty etc are so fooking good that they compensate for the weaker efforts. I think these songs will go down in history as classics: imho, Pigsty is as good as any Smiffs track. Or, at least they will for me.
Kuiper
Better than Marr
I think Ringleader is a true masterpiece. At first I disliked it. I didn't just think it was his worst effort, I actually did not enjoy listening to it. I thought there were a couple listenable songs, notably On the Streets, The Youngest, and The Father. Then I started listening to it more, the songs I had already liked grew on me more (mostly On the Streets), and a few ones that I never really went for fast became favorites, Pigsty and In the Future being highest among them. Even Dear God and I'll Never Be, which I disliked for a long time, I have grown to like, but still not as much as the rest of the album.
Here's where I rank it:
1: Your Arsenal
2: Strangeways, Here We Come
3: Southpaw Grammar
4: Viva Hate
5: Ringleader of the Tormentors
6: The Queen is Dead
7: Vauxhall and I
8: Meat is Murder
9: You Are the Quarry
10: Maladjusted
11: The Smiths
12: Kill Uncle
Here's where I rank it:
1: Your Arsenal
2: Strangeways, Here We Come
3: Southpaw Grammar
4: Viva Hate
5: Ringleader of the Tormentors
6: The Queen is Dead
7: Vauxhall and I
8: Meat is Murder
9: You Are the Quarry
10: Maladjusted
11: The Smiths
12: Kill Uncle
durutti
New Member
ROTT left me very dissapointed!!! I was expecting much more and i only felt ... bored listening to it! After some time I came to appreciate some songs (like: I will see you, Pigsty) but it in general it remains average (for me).
P.S. I am always suprised when hearing that someone doesn't like Kill Uncle... (anyway, it's much better than ROTT!)
P.S. I am always suprised when hearing that someone doesn't like Kill Uncle... (anyway, it's much better than ROTT!)
Harsh Truth
Ever Felt Had?
the Youngest was the Most Loved, You Have Killed Me, On the Streets I Ran, I Just want to See the Boy Happy, In the Future When All is Well are all very good songs.
The rest is C and D level filler, in my opinion.
And that includes "Life is a Pigsty." <ducks for cover!>
The rest is C and D level filler, in my opinion.
And that includes "Life is a Pigsty." <ducks for cover!>
andy_fozzy
Banned
he he!!!Piggy is one of the best things to ever happen to me.
Still makes me cry now.....
On the whole, I prefer YATQ, but still love ROTT.
I Will See You In Far Off Places - good but a bit too bombastic for my taste
2. Dear God, Please Help Me - good lyrics but makes me yawn musically
3. You Have Killed Me - good but a bit too mainstreamish
4. The Youngest Was The Most Loved - same thing
5. In The Future When All's Well - really love that one, especially the lyrics
6. The Father Who Must Be Killed - quite awful
7. Life Is A Pigsty - good one
8. I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero - lovely, very 'croony', like it
9. On The Streets I Ran - love it
10. To Me You Are A Work Of Art - nice one
11. I Just Want To See The Boy Happy - pretty good, but a bit too easylistening
12. At Last I Am Born - love it
I alos prefer these songs live than on CD. I don't care for the way his voice is recorded. too soft. more powerful live.
I cannot understand why so many people say kill uncle is his worst album. I absolutely love that one.
I hate southpaw, especially track 1 - that's got to be his worst (musically at least)
2. Dear God, Please Help Me - good lyrics but makes me yawn musically
3. You Have Killed Me - good but a bit too mainstreamish
4. The Youngest Was The Most Loved - same thing
5. In The Future When All's Well - really love that one, especially the lyrics
6. The Father Who Must Be Killed - quite awful
7. Life Is A Pigsty - good one
8. I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero - lovely, very 'croony', like it
9. On The Streets I Ran - love it
10. To Me You Are A Work Of Art - nice one
11. I Just Want To See The Boy Happy - pretty good, but a bit too easylistening
12. At Last I Am Born - love it
I alos prefer these songs live than on CD. I don't care for the way his voice is recorded. too soft. more powerful live.
I cannot understand why so many people say kill uncle is his worst album. I absolutely love that one.
I hate southpaw, especially track 1 - that's got to be his worst (musically at least)
Paulc
On holiday by mistake
having read all these opinions for and against ROTT i simply cannot wait to get home and stick it on!!
I love it! I think i love it more than YATQ and nearly as much as some Smiths or earlier Moz albums. I definitely prefer it to Maladjusted and Southpaw.
Unlike most i am a big fan of Kill Uncle and i think ROTT is well up there with KU and Your Arsenal.
I adore Life is a Pigsty, You have Killed Me, TYWTML, IJWTSTBH but my absolute favourite on this album is "I will see you in far off places....messing around....and pulling faces"
Genius
I love it! I think i love it more than YATQ and nearly as much as some Smiths or earlier Moz albums. I definitely prefer it to Maladjusted and Southpaw.
Unlike most i am a big fan of Kill Uncle and i think ROTT is well up there with KU and Your Arsenal.
I adore Life is a Pigsty, You have Killed Me, TYWTML, IJWTSTBH but my absolute favourite on this album is "I will see you in far off places....messing around....and pulling faces"
Genius
Similar threads
