Hair Metal vs New York Dolls

Rocco Sifredi

Half a Man of Means
I was looking at the interview you can find on youTybe when Morrissey says that a lot of Dreadful Hair metal stole from the NYD.
For sure, he's not wrong... but maybe he just doesn't understand that some hair metal could have had the same effect on somebody that NYD had on him.
Question: is all 80s and 90s glam rock crap?
Ho secretly like any of those bands?
Ciao
Rocco (hard as a Rock)
 
Rocco Sifredi said:
Question: is all 80s and 90s glam rock crap?
I'm a bit confused now as I'm always when I ponder rock genres and subgenres. I'd connect glam rock to the the 70's and hair metal (?) -> heavy metal to later decades. If you mean heavy metal, then I'm quite proud to admit that I like Iron Maiden and buy their albums and go to concerts. And that's not a secret I'd have to keep just because I also like Morrissey, The Smiths, The Divine Comedy, etc. People like all sorts of things. :) From hard rock my favourite is AC/DC.
 
Interesting thread.
It's easy to say, NME style, that 80's and 90's 'Hair Glam Metal Bands' were, and possibly are, utterly crap. Most of them were, for sure, but I also remember good records from that era: Motley Crue 'Theatre Of Pain', being one of them.

I also would like to say that back in the day, I had many friends who only listened to that kind of music as a reaction against the '80's mainstream that, at the time, they considered awful (in actual truth it was not so terrible...). Funnily enough those friends are among the few, as far as I know, that are still passionate about music and are actually buying records even if they are too busy pushing prams...

El Rockin' Manzo

crue2.jpg
 
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The connection between the Dolls and hair metal bands of the Eighties is pretty clear as far as style goes. I'm sure Marc Bolan and David Bowie influenced hair or "glam" metal as well.

To the question of why the Dolls are different than some of the glam rockers of the Eighties, there's a fine line in rock music between genuine feeling and pantomime. Emotion, spirit, wit can't be faked. Where that line is drawn determines your taste (to me The Smiths seemed intensely real and The Cure seemed like a chidren's puppet show gone bad). In some cases, like the Dolls, they were more about style than substance, and would freely admit it (their contemporaries, The Ramones, were another example of guys who were great because of their attitude and intangibles rather than talent alone). Even choosing style over substance isn't easy, though: as much as some songwriters stumble miserably trying to sound "deep" and emotional, other bands can't get the hang of properly doing fun.

And so to metal. Glam metal was into a strange, baroque phase in the Eighties. It had somehow progressed into insane flamboyance while losing the one thing that was completely cool about the style in the first place, which was the tweaking of gender. "Cock rock" was a phrase in vogue, and it's a great name for those bands. They made a point of offsetting their cartoonish "glamour" by constantly barraging their fans with the sort of sexuality that would have made cavemen blush. Such was the public image, anyway; Rob Halford anyone?

But the style had congealed into mere gestures. Any semblance of real emotion or vitality had vanished from the music and the images. With the Dolls you could tell that there was nowhere else for them to go (and for many years after, that was true for some of the band members). They were projecting an image, sure, but it wasn't as easy to tear it away from who they were off-stage, whereas the Eighties glam rockers borrowed from the Dolls and others in an empty ploy for marketability. Punk and New Wave had become more interesting than metal in the early Eighties, and the times were intensely stylish-- for better and *cough* for worse-- so I think many of them sought to steal their own fashion by going back to "acceptable" people like the Dolls who were, at least, loud. It was all just pop music, fodder for MTV.

Another important difference to point out was that the Dolls did it first. For someone like Morrissey, the Dolls could appear revolutionary because, in fact, they were. The band wasn't sui generis, no, but like The Sex Pistols they might as well have been. Historians can point to other bands or artists that paved the way for the Dolls, but nothing can quite account for the seismic shock that the Dolls were-- for a few people, anyway. Hair and glam metal was more easily traceable. Putting the contrast in the simplest possible terms, David Bowie said he came from Mars and looked the part. Glam metal guys said they'd just came from the Gates of Hell but looked like they'd been down at the mall rummaging for bargains, and had the price tags hanging off their wigs to prove it.

Anyway, part of the confusion stems from the difference between real heavy metal and glam rock. Iron Maiden, for instance, is real heavy metal, despite their penchant for theatricality. Tough, bruising, expertly played music containing lyrics that mixed occult imagery with streaks of hippiedom, psychedelia, and the occasional flourish of Romanticism to show they read books. To an extent, they played the game (leather, hair, pyrotechnics) but mostly they were a respectable outfit, something like a bridge between Black Sabbath and Metallica. And there are lots of good bands like Iron Maiden, bands who could be thought of as 'real' metal and not the shallow garbage which polluted the world's consciousness in the middle to late Eighties.

(On a personal note, for the record, I don't listen to heavy metal and never have by choice, but I have had enough exposure to appreciate some of it-- the lyrics are almost uniformly abysmal but anyone with ears should be able to appreciate the incredible musicianship of many of the players.)
 
I think maybe there were two bands from the hair metal era that were any good: Poison and Extreme. I don't understand why after it all subsided that we're left with Tommy Lee. I guess beating on Pamela Anderson is a good career move.
 
Worm is giving us another lesson, but indeed very interesting.
I Agree that after the initial exciting vibe, the whole hard r&r thing became a bit silly and actually died of it.
But I am very curious to know which act would you call good, as you said in your message.

Mm... we are discovering te pupils are not afraid of the teacher and a lot of us like rock and roll...
 
Sorry for the "lesson", I suppose it's tedious to read.

Anyway, I am of the opinion that in purely musical terms groups like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, some Dio, Iron Maiden, and one or two others I've probably forgotten were somewhat impressive. On a more bluesy/rock 'n' roll tip, early Van Halen and AC/DC are excellent-- AC/DC are actually sort of wonderful. On the prog-rock front Rush are three of the best musicians in the world. Metallica, of course, is a monster.

I've never thought much of Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd.

And again, I have to stress-- these are not bands I like or actively listen to. I don't own any of their stuff. They come to me from older siblings. I would choose the worst Blur B-side over any of their full albums, at least as an adult. But I can appreciate what they did as musicians. Some of it is downright irresistable, though I'll also repeat my contention that the lyrics are almost all terrifically shitty.
 
Hi,
you don't have to be ashamed by that!
I agree with what you wrote.

It's OUTING time.
let's do that.

I like AC/DC a lot.
What about you?

Rocko
 
El Manzo said:
Interesting thread.
It's easy to say, NME style, that 80's and 90's 'Hair Glam Metal Bands' were, and possibly are, utterly crap. Most of them were, for sure, but I also remember good records from that era: Motley Crue 'Theatre Of Pain', being one of them.

El Rockin' Manzo

3660.jpg

I grew up on Motley Crue, and I still listen to them when they come on the radio. I dont have any of their albums anymore, but I still have a soft spot for them.

zom
 
Yeah, AC/DC are very good. I don't know any of their newer material, but in the "Back In Black" era they were strong. The earlier Bon Scott stuff I also like-- extremely nasty, seedy music. The flash of a switchblade in a deserted alleyway, broken bottles in scary bar brawls, loose women OD'ing in your bed, that kind of thing. Exhilarating menace, unapologetic lowlifes. Beer, f***ing, and loud rock music were their ingredients. It makes me laugh to think they were accused of Satanism. Can you see them at a Black Mass? They'd be scratching their asses and belching before knocking off halfway through to go and hit the pub before it closed.

I don't care for Angus Young's squealing guitars so much, but the rest of the band is really top notch. When you listen to "Hell's Bells", "For Those About To Rock", "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap" and others at really high volume, it's infectious, very powerful stuff. Massive sound. And although the lyrics are absurd and often totally inane, the boastful virility is bracingly complemented by the music. The songs sound impossibly tight. And it's basically pub rock, y'know, just music to play while you drink with your friends. They're fun.

I haven't listened to them in many years, but whenever I hear one of their songs I always get a little smile on my face.

Among other bands, Iron Maiden were very good. Lots of fun WWII imagery and other end of the world junk. "Rime Of The Ancient Mariner" embodied everything that was daft about metal but also grand, too. "Aces High" and "Two Minutes To Midnight" are fantastic. (All the "666" shit was lame.) Rush, although not heavy metal per se, were a band a lot of heavy metal fans I knew liked a lot. They used synths pretty well at times and Neil Peart, their drummer, is sick-- if you've seen him on video he goes absolutely mad with the sticks. Like a machine. Smart guy, too.
 
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Well put Worm! :D Like I said I'm a fan of both Iron Maiden and AC/DC (although they aren't glam this thread was about at first) and we've also got all of the albums. I'm really looking forward to their new ones and also a IM gig in November *taps tickets lovingly*. Yay!
 
To me AII gIam MetaI is CRAP! Any mataI band who's members resembIed a tansvestite, was/is pure and absoIute SHIT!

Good metaI is

RUSH [to me they're metaI]
MegaDeath
SIayer
Guns N' Roses
Juda Priest
B. Sabbath
AIice In Chains [grunge/metaI]
Pantera
MetaIIica

I HATE whimpy metaI, this is a testosterone/adrenaIine driven genre, to me there shouIdn't be room for whimpy tranny Ioo<ing bands in it.
 
Well, there's a transvestite in your avatar...
And the blood on the other picture, that's really Manowar.
Eih, I like AC/DC... but what are you doing here big macho??
 
Rocco Sifredi said:
Well, there's a transvestite in your avatar...
And the blood on the other picture, that's really Manowar.

rocko, you continue to seriously impress me with your vast knowledge. you must spend a lot of time doing your researches... is that right?

i am so intrigued by you: have you always lived in ITALY?
 
Rocco Sifredi said:
Well, there's a transvestite in your avatar...
And the blood on the other picture.

Tranvestites+(Fake) Blood=Motley Crue in 1984

crue.jpg
 
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I would like to say to no one in particular that I am afraid I do live in Italy.
But walking through Rome I never had explosive keggs nowhere ever...
 
Rocco Sifredi said:
Well, there's a transvestite in your avatar...
And the blood on the other picture, that's really Manowar.
Eih, I like AC/DC... but what are you doing here big macho??


BIG MACHO? I've gotten caIIed many things in my Iife but Macho, certainIy hasn't been one of them. UsuaIIy young efeminate gay boys such as myseIf get caIIed OTHER things but never macho....thanx I guess, it sorta feeIs nice!


PS- That is NOT a transvestite, that girI is AII femaIe and a very hot one. You got it aII wrong about her.
You need to do more research, you might even end up enjoying yourseIf a Iot if you get to the right pIace. ;)
[PIayboy Pics]
 
oh yeah dunno if anyone posted this info already but the dvd "New York Doll" a doc about Arthur Kane is out in the UK on monday. The 15 min interview with Morrissey is an extra on it.
 
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