Morrissey, the BNP and some idiots on this board...

N

NoBlueSkies.....

Guest
I know this is a tired issue and I am as tired of it as anyone so please don't attack me for bringing it up. But I am absolutely sick of racist idiots trying to dress Morrissey up as a racist or a BNP supporter to back up their own disgusting views. A few posts, including one at http://www.morrissey-solo.com/discuss/index.cgi?read=174073 prompted me to write this message; the sad thing is that it is in fact THESE idiots who keep propogating this myth, as opposed to the traditionally stereotyped "politically correct liberal".

Morrissey has never done or said anything to suggest he is a racist, and he is far too intelligent to think, as the poster in the link pasted above seems to think, a political national boundary equates to a certain skin colour or culture.

I've been to many, many Morrissey concerts and was lucky enough to go to some Smiths shows as well - as a result, I've met many Morrissey fans. I have never met a BNP supporter or, thankfully, a Daily Mail reader (some may describe that sentence as a little tortological).

So here is my message to all you right wing, nazi, BNP/Pat Buchanan supporting f*** heads out there - go and preach your hatred somewhere else, you're not welcome here, and your hijacking of Morrissey for your own hideous racist ends is not welcome either.
 
proof can be found of your point by a search on google. This is on an extremist millitant white supremacy site (a discussion of morrissey supporting what they see as his racist views).

http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-129197
 
The BNP & their supporters make me shudder. Having seen some of their latest paraphernalia, I was left feeling sick to stomach. Everyone knows that there has to be immigration control - No country could operate without it - but despite their protestations to the contrary that isn't what the BNP are about - They're about hatred, they're about division, they're about fear, for that is all they have to feed on. The fear of the ignorant, of the stupid. They're one of the great evils to exist in British society at present.

By the way, in case you didn't see Moz is one of a number of people to sign the Unite Against Facism petition, who's current goal is helping to stop the BNP from gaining a foothold at the upcoming elections.

One in the eye for those who've become convinced that Morrissey speaks for "them".




Morrissey Helps Fight Facism
 
I have read your post and I read the Pat Buchanan supporter's reply to me and I didnt reply to him because it seemed to me that he didnt get the point of what I was trying to say and was a bit scary frankly. If I had replied to him I would have wrote that I'd rather hang out in the Antarctic eating seals with Shakleton than vote for Buchanan a man famous for saying that feminists wanted to turn all women into lesbians and practice witchcraft (and he was dissing this whereas I basically fit all three groups....).
Anyway i dont think we'll ever know what's going on in Moz's head vis a vis this subject. I'm not fussed because I can think for myself, however torturously confusing it can be sometimes.
 
> The BNP & their supporters make me shudder. Having seen some of their
> latest paraphernalia, I was left feeling sick to stomach. Everyone knows
> that there has to be immigration control - No country could operate
> without it - but despite their protestations to the contrary that isn't
> what the BNP are about - They're about hatred, they're about division,
> they're about fear, for that is all they have to feed on. The fear of the
> ignorant, of the stupid. They're one of the great evils to exist in
> British society at present.

> By the way, in case you didn't see Moz is one of a number of people to
> sign the Unite Against Facism petition, who's current goal is helping to
> stop the BNP from gaining a foothold at the upcoming elections.

> One in the eye for those who've become convinced that Morrissey speaks for
> "them".

You have said better than I did what I was trying to say. Which depressingly for me shows the limits of my education. The BNP are about hating, killing, gassing and throwing bricks through the windows of asian shopkeepers and making their lives a misery. Immigration control has been hijacked by them as 'their issue'. By the way I have protested outside a detention centre in Oxford. They cannot let everyone who wants to stay but some of the things I have read about these places creeps the living shit out of me.
 
Hi,

I gather from the context of your posts that you are an American? You wrote originally:

"Muslim Fundamentalists who hate European culture and seek to impose their scary racist, mysogynist and homophobic claptrap on us deserve everything they get. They should be stripped of their citizenship, jailed if they preach hatred (eg against Jewish people, which they seem to be awfully keen to scrapegoat for everything) and/ or deported. Tolerance is wasted on the intolerant. And yes Britain and other civilized countries judicial systems are not fully calibrated to deal with these assholes."

I have no real problem with a lot of what you say, but why do you, in a typically subjectified and media-fuelled way specifically refer to "Muslim" fundamentalists? Why not include Christian and Jewish and all other fundamentalists as well? I find that quite interesting in itself, not least because you have a Christian fundamentalist as President.

I hope you can see the point..
 
> I know this is a tired issue and I am as tired of it as anyone so please
> don't attack me for bringing it up. But I am absolutely sick of racist
> idiots trying to dress Morrissey up as a racist or a BNP supporter to back
> up their own disgusting views. A few posts, including one at
> http://www.morrissey-solo.com/discuss/index.cgi?read=174073 prompted me
> to write this message; the sad thing is that it is in fact THESE idiots
> who keep propogating this myth, as opposed to the traditionally
> stereotyped "politically correct liberal".

> Morrissey has never done or said anything to suggest he is a racist, and
> he is far too intelligent to think, as the poster in the link pasted above
> seems to think, a political national boundary equates to a certain skin
> colour or culture.

> I've been to many, many Morrissey concerts and was lucky enough to go to
> some Smiths shows as well - as a result, I've met many Morrissey fans. I
> have never met a BNP supporter or, thankfully, a Daily Mail reader (some
> may describe that sentence as a little tortological).

> So here is my message to all you right wing, nazi, BNP/Pat Buchanan
> supporting f*** heads out there - go and preach your hatred somewhere
> else, you're not welcome here, and your hijacking of Morrissey for your
> own hideous racist ends is not welcome either.

Quite hilarious that some people still peddle the old "Is Moz a racist line".

If the knew anything about musical heritage and took a glance at the record label that Morrissey has chosen to have resurected to release YATQ,then they would shut the f*** up and do everyone a favour.

Morrissey himself has stated he is "incacpable of being racist".Enough said.
 
Sorry, but I have also been to many Morrissey concerts and have met BNP supporters who worship Morrissey & The Smiths. A few have been fans since 'This Charming Man'. I found them great fun & had a great time after the concerts getting drunk & singing Smiths/Morrissey songs.

It's unfair to label them as thugs as they are just normal people like everyone else, just different politcal views. The people I met were a VET who LOVES animals & an Accountant etc...

Oh by the way I don't support any policital party. A waste of time!
 
"Sorry, but I have also been to many Morrissey concerts and have met BNP supporters... I found them great fun & had a great time after the concerts getting drunk & singing Smiths/Morrissey songs"

Wow, sounds great, you sure know how to have a good time!!!!!
 
> So here is my message to all you right wing, nazi, BNP/Pat Buchanan
> supporting f*** heads out there - go and preach your hatred somewhere
> else, you're not welcome here, and your hijacking of Morrissey for your
> own hideous racist ends is not welcome either.

It was actually my post that you referred to and showed the link to up there in your message. I thought I went to rather great lengths to demonstrate that there is no hatred or intolerance in the ideas I was conveying, and that my beliefs of preserving culture carried over to every country, not just England or "white" ones.

Why are you so angry? Why did you still feel compelled to call me a "f*ck head" and state that I preached hatred? I really just don't understand -- I re-read my entire post twice, and I'm just baffled.

Anyone?

-- J.T.
 
> I have no real problem with a lot of what you say, but why do you, in a
> typically subjectified and media-fuelled way specifically refer to
> "Muslim" fundamentalists? Why not include Christian and Jewish
> and all other fundamentalists as well? I find that quite interesting in
> itself, not least because you have a Christian fundamentalist as
> President.

> I hope you can see the point..

I see your point, and it would be fair to include them if George Bush went so far as to chop people's hands off, support laws that abolished suffrage (or pretty much any other right) for women, encourage torture and killing, encouraged suicide bombers and the killing of innocents, and viewed any person who was not a member of his own religion an "infidel."

Trust me, I am no Bush fan... but he is not THAT bad. I think the Muslims are easy targets because they set themselves up to be. If you look at the mostly Christian nations of Western Europe, they have a pretty good track record when it comes to a fairly successful, free, open, industrially and technologically advanced, and (relatively) safe society. The majority of Western European nations are rather nice places to live, compared with anything else on this planet.

Now take Muslim nations. Would you feel particularly safe living in most of them? Sure, there are one or two exceptions (Egypt, Jordan, Turkey). But let's face it -- Islam does not have a very good track record of creating stable, safe societies that treat women equally and promote safety, freedoms, and science. Go through them: Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen... the list goes on.

I think people who pick on Muslim nations aren't doing so out of any internal or innate "hatred" (as you seem to imply), I think they're just looking at the facts. Look at the Muslim nations today, and look at the Western European Christian nations. There is a world of difference there, whether liberal multiculturalists are willing to admit and accept that or not.

I've actually found more hatred amongst leftist mulicultralists (in the form of your original diatribe against me, using words like f*ckheads, hatred, idiots, etc.) than I've ever found amongst social conservatives. Fascinating.

-- J.T.
 
> Quite hilarious that some people still peddle the old "Is Moz a
> racist line".

> If the knew anything about musical heritage and took a glance at the
> record label that Morrissey has chosen to have resurected to release
> YATQ,then they would shut the f*** up and do everyone a favour.

> Morrissey himself has stated he is "incacpable of being
> racist".Enough said.

Johnny!!! I didn't know you swore!

McCann. (shocked beyond belief).
 
I dont know why you presumed I was American. Couldnt be further from the truth. I'm a New Zealander. Its a fair way away.
I dont believe the backlash against Muslim fundamentalists can just be dismissed as media fuelled- their actions and their writings provoke a response from most of us and rightly so.
Obviously there are Christian and Jewish fundamentalists and I can't stand them either. I find all of them extremely arrogant- the Christian/Jewish ones in my culture, but the Muslim ones more so because they are seeking to impose from further outside (and yes I know all of them are linked).And as a European,(given Europe's shameful history) I find it particularly creepy how fundamentalist Muslims echo Nazi ideology in relation to Jewish people.
I have a first class honours degree in Sociology and have nearly finished a Masters in Museum and Heritage Studies (which involves a lot of cross cultural discussion). I'm 29 and worked and lived overseas in Britain for four years between my two degrees. What about you?
 
> I dont know why you presumed I was American. Couldnt be further from the
> truth. I'm a New Zealander. Its a fair way away.
> I dont believe the backlash against Muslim fundamentalists can just be
> dismissed as media fuelled- their actions and their writings provoke a
> response from most of us and rightly so.
> Obviously there are Christian and Jewish fundamentalists and I can't stand
> them either. I find all of them extremely arrogant- the Christian/Jewish
> ones in my culture, but the Muslim ones more so because they are seeking
> to impose from further outside (and yes I know all of them are linked).And
> as a European,(given Europe's shameful history) I find it particularly
> creepy how fundamentalist Muslims echo Nazi ideology in relation to Jewish
> people.
> I have a first class honours degree in Sociology and have nearly finished
> a Masters in Museum and Heritage Studies (which involves a lot of cross
> cultural discussion). I'm 29 and worked and lived overseas in Britain for
> four years between my two degrees. What about you?

I assumed you were an American due to a combination of your spelling choices and the fact that you said you wouldn't vote for Pat Buchanan, suggesting you have a choice in the matter (which no-one outside America would). However, I take it now you were speaking hypothetically.

I don't understand the logic of your argument in that all fundamentalists are troubling for you but Muslim fundamentalists are worse are they are "seeking to impose from further outside". What does that mean? Outside your preferred cultural boundaries? Cultural boundaries which we, consequently, also imposed ourselves on much of the World via colonisation (including the country in which you live).

You are right that fundamentalist Muslims can be scary when they echo the Nazi line on Jewish people; however, equally, the entire Israeli government can be scary in its approach to dealing with the Gaza Strip and West Bank - Ariel Sharon was personally involved in a cold blooded massacre of Palestinians in the southern Lebanon, in co-operation with the hideous Phalange, in what can only be described as horrendously nazi-esque. No, I don't condone suicide bombings or tirades against Jews, but such fundamentalism is NOT only a problem for Muslims. Equally, we can go on to Christian fundamentalism, Hindu fundamentalism, even Buddhist fundamentlism which raised its head for the first time in recent elections in Sri Lanka.

I don't know why your education and travel is relevant, but since you ask, I hold a MSc in International Relations politics from Cambridge (new trinity college), and a 1st degree in Economics and Politics from Durham (2.1). I work for Dfid (Department for International Development) based in London, but have lived and worked in Beijing, India, the West Bank, Hondurous and Poland. I have also visited, during my travels before work, most of Europe, Turkey, Iran, Australia, New Zealand, USA, Laos, Cambodia and a very small part of Outer Mongolia on the trans-siberian rail route. Have spent a very short amount of time in Moscow as well, but that doesn't count for much as I saw pratcially nothing!
 
> It was actually my post that you referred to and showed the link to up
> there in your message. I thought I went to rather great lengths to
> demonstrate that there is no hatred or intolerance in the ideas I was
> conveying, and that my beliefs of preserving culture carried over to every
> country, not just England or "white" ones.

> Why are you so angry? Why did you still feel compelled to call me a
> "f*ck head" and state that I preached hatred? I really just
> don't understand -- I re-read my entire post twice, and I'm just baffled.

> Anyone?

> -- J.T.

Let me go through a few points for you for starters:

(your words appear in quotes)

"I find it fascinating that the Left preaches multiculturalism, and yet by allowing Britain to be overrun by 3rd world immigrants, you are essentially dooming white Britain to extinction since their birthrates are so much lower."

This is interesting as it is a line that many white extremists use. However, first it is important for you to understand immigration figures for the UK. Have you seen the stats? I have, as I work for Dfid, and part of our role is internal migration/immigration monitoring. 89.7% of all immigrants to the UK are from Europe and/or predominantly "white" countries. Words like "overrun" are akin to nazi propoganda, there is no evidence at all to back this up. Furthermore, what is your definition of "3rd World", which is an outdated and highly contestable term? Lastly, I would like to point out that Britain is presently desperate for immigrants to maintain its high economic growth rate - I take it you have never studied macro-economics to a high level? Even in this simple quote, you are loaded with inaccuracies and typical right wing extremist flame throwing based on non-evidence.

"I am not racist, but instead I encourage the preservation of EACH culture. I want Thailand to be Thai, I want Spain to be Spanish, I want India to be Indian. When I go to France, I want to see FRENCH people, not muslims or hispanics. When i go to Mexico, i want to see MEXICAN people, not whites or asians."

I am flabbergasted at how uneducated you are. You want India to be Indian? And what exactly is "Indian", for example? To just use this example, India is an amalgomation of an unbelievable variety of ethnic and tribal groups - there are well over 500 languages being used in the Indian subcontinent, many of which have no relationship to each other. Furthermore, those in the Dravidian south are completely different to those in the Indo-aryan north, who were subject to countless invasions by Mongols, Moghuls and Aryans alike. I could apply similar arguments to Mexico, Spain and every country you list in fact. You are speaking about places in the World of which you manifestly have no knowledge whatsoever. There is no such thing as a "pure race" you buffoon. Going back to "India", the country didn't even exist until 1947.

"I don't want to see England overrun with non-whites, out of principal. No Middle Eastern or Asian country would accept that one bit, so why should America or England?"

You can't be racist (as you clearly are) and expect your country to continue to provide you with a high standard of living. Western countries are dependant upon cheap immigrant labour to maintain growth. This is not a point of debate amongst any respected economist.

I can only end in saying, thank God you don't live anywhere near me, you ignorant, racist piece of filth.
 
The international relations stuff sounds interesting.
I wish Israel had another Prime Minister. Its still obvious that generally israel is more progressive culturally and democratically than the Arab nations even with its many awful failings. (and yes I'm aware of all of these in some detail as I have an Israeli friend who is extremely critical of the current Israeli govt.)
What is wrong with 'the left' is that it reguards all cultures relativistically as all good as each other and to say otherwise is branded as racist. But then it gets caught out when some countries describe the sacred human rights that the 'left wing' has argued for as 'not part of their culture'.
Just be careful that you do not think you are standing in lofty judgement on others from what you think is a 'superior' position. Life isnt black and white and I'm sure you make allowances for yourself and think things that if other people said you'd immediately repudiate them for.
 
> The international relations stuff sounds interesting.
> I wish Israel had another Prime Minister. Its still obvious that generally
> israel is more progressive culturally and democratically than the Arab
> nations even with its many awful failings. (and yes I'm aware of all of
> these in some detail as I have an Israeli friend who is extremely critical
> of the current Israeli govt.)
> What is wrong with 'the left' is that it reguards all cultures
> relativistically as all good as each other and to say otherwise is branded
> as racist. But then it gets caught out when some countries describe the
> sacred human rights that the 'left wing' has argued for as 'not part of
> their culture'.
> Just be careful that you do not think you are standing in lofty judgement
> on others from what you think is a 'superior' position. Life isnt black
> and white and I'm sure you make allowances for yourself and think things
> that if other people said you'd immediately repudiate them for.

Whilst I don't disagree with a lot of your sentiment, I think you should be careful about your generalisations; for example, to compare Israel and its "progressiveness" (however this may be defined) in relation to all other "arab nations" is grossly unscientific for me. To lump all arab nations together is a little ludicrous - compare, say, the advanced and evolving political situation in Iran to, say, the oppressive Saudi administration (irony being Saudi Arabia is a friend of the US, whereas Iran is part of the axis of evil!). The issue of human rights, religion and politics is also highly complex - whilst a linkage between all clearly exists, it is simply too easy to state that certain countries are the way they are on account of the particular religion that happens to be predominant. Equally, to claim that Britain or any other nation state is democratic primarily because of Christianity is also lacking in clear causal evidence. There are many, many things that make all these places in the World different. Religion is one of a million, and one that happens to have been highlighted at great length in the media.

Finally, people who you mention who describe things as "not part of their culture" may not even be speaking for "their culture". In the UK, certain sections of the media have taken it upon themselves to report the rantings of certain extremist clerics in a clear unstated effort to tie them generally to Islam and the Arab World - however, I have never come across people with such views in any of the muslim countries in which I have worked or visited. Extremists exist everywhere. None of my Christian friends think that George W Bush speaks for them!
 
I second everything above, plus an extra thought:

> "I am not racist, but instead I encourage the preservation of EACH
> culture. I want Thailand to be Thai, I want Spain to be Spanish, I want
> India to be Indian. When I go to France, I want to see FRENCH people, not
> muslims or hispanics. When i go to Mexico, i want to see MEXICAN people,
> not whites or asians."

If this is the case then what about the preservation of the cultures of the many Native American tribes in the Americas and other indigenous people worldwide? People so often forget that America is not full of Americans...
 
> I second everything above, plus an extra thought:

> If this is the case then what about the preservation of the cultures of
> the many Native American tribes in the Americas and other indigenous
> people worldwide? People so often forget that America is not full of
> Americans...

Excellent point!
 
> Johnny!!! I didn't know you swore!

> McCann. (shocked beyond belief).

Oh, he swears like a docker, Paddy. Probably becuase he is one....
 
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