Morrissey at School

Buzzetta

WOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Thought I would throw this out there.

I somehow wound up covering an English - Language Arts Class this afternoon. Sort of one of those... "So and So cannot be there for this period - can you watch the class."

So... I figured... coverage... I can do what I want...

We discussed lyrics providing a story using:

One - U2
Everyday is Like Sunday - Morrissey
Eleanor Rigby - Beatles

and yes we discussed Everyday is Like Sunday VS Every Day is Like Sunday
 
We discussed lyrics providing a story using:

One - U2
Everyday is Like Sunday - Morrissey
Eleanor Rigby - Beatles

and yes we discussed Everyday is Like Sunday VS Every Day is Like Sunday

So you did tell them that Morrissey used bad grammar, as "everyday" is an adjective ("The doctor assured that patient that it was an everyday kind of surgery that shouldn't pose any problems"), while "every day" is either a noun phrase ("Every day is a struggle for her, because of her condition") or an adverb ("He has to take the bus to work every day"). So much for those who think that Morrissey knows everything, despite not having gone to college.
 
About how old were your students, Buzz?
 
It's a poet's job to break grammar rules.

Maybe, but breaking grammar rules doesn't make you a poet. It's one thing to break rules because you simply don't know what the rules are, and another to break them because you thoroughly understand the rules and are trying to go beyond them. Can you really say that Morrissey is such a master of English grammar that he deliberately used the wrong form here in the song title, or is it simply a grammatical mistake? Did he say "I may have brung to you" in "I Have Forgiven Jesus" instead of "brought" because the latter sounded wrong or didn't rhyme or scan? No, it's simply a grammatical mistake. We'd all agree that Morrissey is a brilliant poet and writer, but when he makes mistakes, don't gloss them over because of fawning adoration.
 
Maybe, but breaking grammar rules doesn't make you a poet. It's one thing to break rules because you simply don't know what the rules are, and another to break them because you thoroughly understand the rules and are trying to go beyond them. Can you really say that Morrissey is such a master of English grammar that he deliberately used the wrong form here in the song title, or is it simply a grammatical mistake? Did he say "I may have brung to you" in "I Have Forgiven Jesus" instead of "brought" because the latter sounded wrong or didn't rhyme or scan? No, it's simply a grammatical mistake. We'd all agree that Morrissey is a brilliant poet and writer, but when he makes mistakes, don't gloss them over because of fawning adoration.

No way. "I may have brung to ya" was deliberate. I think it was meant to evoke the earnestness of a young boy, supported by the paper route. Etc. There is no way Moz would make a mistake that big, he's very well spoken.

However, it's a paper route, not a paper round, but maybe that's regional.
 
Maybe, but breaking grammar rules doesn't make you a poet. It's one thing to break rules because you simply don't know what the rules are, and another to break them because you thoroughly understand the rules and are trying to go beyond them. Can you really say that Morrissey is such a master of English grammar that he deliberately used the wrong form here in the song title, or is it simply a grammatical mistake? Did he say "I may have brung to you" in "I Have Forgiven Jesus" instead of "brought" because the latter sounded wrong or didn't rhyme or scan? No, it's simply a grammatical mistake. We'd all agree that Morrissey is a brilliant poet and writer, but when he makes mistakes, don't gloss them over because of fawning adoration.

There's no way anyone english wouldn't know that "brung" is not a proper word, whatever their education. Of course it was deliberate.

As for the Everyday thing, it's totally irrelevant, unless you want to pick holes. Trying to criticise a poet for their bad grammar, whether it's deliberate or not, is completely missing the point.
 
No way. "I may have brung to ya" was deliberate. I think it was meant to evoke the earnestness of a young boy, supported by the paper route. Etc. There is no way Moz would make a mistake that big, he's very well spoken.

However, it's a paper route, not a paper round, but maybe that's regional.

It's a paper round in London.
 
As Danny said, paper round is British expression.
Morrissey has written in "I Have Forgiven Jesus":

I was a good kid
I wouldn't do you no harm
I was a nice kid
with a nice paper-round
Forgive me any pain
I may have brung to you
With God's help I know
I'll always be near to you
but Jesus hurt me
When He deserted me / but
I have forgiven Jesus
for all the desire
He placed in me when there's nothing I can do
with this desire
 
Most of Morrissey's misspellings and solecisms are ironic. Remember the run-out of "William It Was Really Nothing": "We hates bad grammar". These are little jokes poking fun at his self-importance.

Also, the correct form of "everyday" as a noun is "everydayness", so technically it is an error, but Morrissey could easily plead the usage argument. "Everyday" sounds much better than "everydayness" and usually conveys the same meaning as "every day".

Besides, in casual speech and writing "everyday" is sometimes understood as a noun, as in "Something different than the everyday" (meaning the same as "Something out of the ordinary"). Morrissey means to say "every day" but in the event it's not so bad a mistake that it deserves mention.

I do think Morrissey has a certain looseness of language in his prose writing (the bits we've seen, usually articles written for magazines). This is typical of autodidacts and doesn't reflect poverty of mind, only poverty of formal education.
 
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As Danny said, paper round is British expression.
Morrissey has written in "I Have Forgiven Jesus":

I was a good kid
I wouldn't do you no harm
I was a nice kid
with a nice paper-round
Forgive me any pain
I may have brung to you
With God's help I know
I'll always be near to you
but Jesus hurt me
When He deserted me / but
I have forgiven Jesus
for all the desire
He placed in me when there's nothing I can do
with this desire

I figured it was...
 
Maybe, but breaking grammar rules doesn't make you a poet. It's one thing to break rules because you simply don't know what the rules are, and another to break them because you thoroughly understand the rules and are trying to go beyond them. Can you really say that Morrissey is such a master of English grammar that he deliberately used the wrong form here in the song title, or is it simply a grammatical mistake? Did he say "I may have brung to you" in "I Have Forgiven Jesus" instead of "brought" because the latter sounded wrong or didn't rhyme or scan? No, it's simply a grammatical mistake. We'd all agree that Morrissey is a brilliant poet and writer, but when he makes mistakes, don't gloss them over because of fawning adoration.

He makes those grammatical errors on purpose. Not that I approve, mind you! Ten years on and I still haven't gotten over "we knows when the school bus comes and goes"... and I've been virtually catatonic since he hit me with the brutal double whammy of "I love ya, I just wish you'd stay where you is" and "I may have brung to ya". Oh, Moz... how could you???? <sniffle>
 
Most of Morrissey's misspellings and solecisms are ironic. Remember the run-out of "William It Was Really Nothing": "We hates bad grammar". These are little jokes poking fun at his self-importance.

That example proves my point all the more that he doesn't have perfect grammar, and he's well aware of it. His fans apparently aren't.

Also, the correct form of "everyday" as a noun is "everydayness", so technically it is an error, but Morrissey could easily plead the usage argument. "Everyday" sounds much better than "everydayness" and usually conveys the same meaning as "every day".

The noun here is "day," not "everydayness." Moreover, "everydayness" is an alternate and less common form of "everyday," and is certainly not the "correct form of 'everyday'."

I do think Morrissey has a certain looseness of language in his prose writing (the bits we've seen, usually articles written for magazines). This is typical of autodidacts and doesn't reflect poverty of mind, only poverty of formal education.

I totally agree. My original argument is that people aren't acknowledging that there are mistakes.
 
That example proves my point all the more that he doesn't have perfect grammar, and he's well aware of it. His fans apparently aren't.



The noun here is "day," not "everydayness." Moreover, "everydayness" is an alternate and less common form of "everyday," and is certainly not the "correct form of 'everyday'."



I totally agree. My original argument is that people aren't acknowledging that there are mistakes.

Well my point is that I don't care about grammatical mistakes when I read a poem or listen to a pop song. It's totally irrelevant to me and I think most good writers don't take any notice of the rules as they are taught to them at school. Rules get in the way of what you want to say.
 
That example proves my point all the more that he doesn't have perfect grammar, and he's well aware of it. His fans apparently aren't.

... My original argument is that people aren't acknowledging that there are mistakes.

Who isn't acknowledging the mistakes? I hear people calling Morrissey a literary genius but that isn't the same thing as saying he uses perfect grammar. If we acknowledge that Morrissey's mistakes are usually ironic, and he acknowledges the same, aren't we all in agreement? Why should anyone go out of his way to point out mistakes we're all aware of?

I believe grammar is a crucially important matter in ways that go beyond simple classroom proficiency. At the same time, you have to give artists some latitude. In Morrissey's case, would you say the overall effect of his music and personality is to make people love words, grammar, and literature more or less than they already do? The number of people who picked up Keats and Wilde after listening to "Cemetry Gates" is much, much greater than the number of people who were led astray by the bad spelling mistake in the title. The impression we all have of his stunning literary brilliance, and the way he has made literature so much more attractive to so many of his fans, prove that in some cases grammar is less important than the total effect.

There was a great New Yorker article a few months back about famous writers and the shocking mistakes they made in the rough manuscripts of their books. Authors like Eliot, Joyce and Orwell were shown to have made astonishing errors over and over again. Tried to find it online but couldn't. If someone else has a link, it would be welcome in this thread.

I did run across this piece by Louis Menand, a review of "Eats, Shoots & Leaves". It contains a paragraph which is relevant here:

"One of the most mysterious of writing’s immaterial properties is what people call “voice.” Editors sometimes refer to it, in a phrase that underscores the paradox at the heart of the idea, as “the voice on the page.” Prose can show many virtues, including originality, without having a voice. It may avoid cliché, radiate conviction, be grammatically so clean that your grandmother could eat off it. But none of this has anything to do with this elusive entity the “voice.” There are probably all kinds of literary sins that prevent a piece of writing from having a voice, but there seems to be no guaranteed technique for creating one. Grammatical correctness doesn’t insure it. Calculated incorrectness doesn’t, either. Ingenuity, wit, sarcasm, euphony, frequent outbreaks of the first-person singular—any of these can enliven prose without giving it a voice. You can set the stage as elaborately as you like, but either the phantom appears or it doesn’t."​

If the phantom appears, don't worry about the rest. (And it does-- what is Morrissey if not The Voice?) I think most Morrissey fans understand this, whether or not they make a point of acknowledging it.
 
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