Unanswerable (?) questions about The Smiths.

  • Thread starter watfordtakeabow
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Yes, most of you have compiled the right answers at some point. Moz loved 60s female solo artists like Sandie Shaw, Cilla Black (see Work Is A Four-Letter Word), and indeed that Twinkle song. William... is about Billy Mackenzie who Moz had a brief relationship with before disguarding him, hence William, It Was Really Nothing, and you are spot on when you say a fellow Associate recorded "Steven, It Was Really Something." Mr Shankly ISN'T one of Moz's old bosses while he had to fund his music consumption - it IS Geoff Travis, head of Rough Trade, who Moz was very unhappy with - "I want to leave, you will not miss me." Of course they did leave and Strangeways... was on EMI. You are also correct about Shakespeare's sister, and Shelaugh Delaney. The Boy... was autobiogrpahical, and I don't know but I suspect Bigmouth was a concoction of Moz's ideas about his frustration with himself. However, the lyrics to that song are a bit dicey, so probably consult Songs That Saved Your Life.
Okay, see you.
 
Re: Billy Mackenzie

> ....have you read the Billy Mackenzie life story, The Glamour Chase?

> Absolutely essential, a beautiful reminder of a glorious talent.

I was given The Glamour Chase as a christmas present, wonderful book, sad loss.
 
Re: Billy Mackenzie

> ....have you read the Billy Mackenzie life story, The Glamour Chase?

> Absolutely essential, a beautiful reminder of a glorious talent.

i'll look out for it (i'm from near where he lived, so i'd be interested to hear what's said about places i know). i have one associates song on an uncut magazine cd, which i love - 'tell me easter's on friday' - and it was going on all the compilation tapes i made for a while i meant to get more by them.
 
Re: All the answers are in SONGS THAT SAVED YOUR LIFE

> I popped in Borders on way home from work today and they had Simon
> Goddard's Songs That Saved Your Life just in! I've been reading it for
> past 4 hours solid and it really does answer everything. Goes into whole
> William/MacKenzie thing (he nicked one of Moz's books apparently),
> explains Boy With Thorn, L-Shaped Room, Shakespeare's Sister, the whole
> lot, all these questions you raised. I've been completely absorbed in it.
> Best Smiths book by a mile from what I've been reading.

i found this... from here: http://arcane.morrissey-solo.com/smiths/interviews/1984/mozface.htm

Interviewer: How did your dream date with The Associates' Billy Mackenzie fare?
Morrissey: He walked off with one of my James Dean books, which is a persistent cause of anxiety to me. I was quite speechless, I watched him walk out the door. It wasn't my favourite book but these things are sacrosanct. Billy has got this sense of uncontrollable mischief though I think that's exactly how he wants to be seen.
 
Re: Unanswerable (?) questions about The Smiths. - Twinkle comment.

Golden Lights by Twinkle - a great sounding original. Not a bad version by the smiths - perhaps only one or two enjoyed it, but I did. It was great when this came out because many of these songs have just been forgotton by the masses... I have Terry on 7" by Twinkle and despite the scratches it still has a haunting sound and some 'twangly' guitars !!

I would really love to have been a 'fly' on the wall in Geoff Travis's office on the day when The Smiths left Rough Trade for EMI.

In the early 90s, I wondered how Johnny had 'escaped' from EMI....

Lucky.

> Yes, most of you have compiled the right answers at some point. Moz loved
> 60s female solo artists like Sandie Shaw, Cilla Black (see Work Is A
> Four-Letter Word), and indeed that Twinkle song. William... is about Billy
> Mackenzie who Moz had a brief relationship with before disguarding him,
> hence William, It Was Really Nothing, and you are spot on when you say a
> fellow Associate recorded "Steven, It Was Really Something." Mr
> Shankly ISN'T one of Moz's old bosses while he had to fund his music
> consumption - it IS Geoff Travis, head of Rough Trade, who Moz was very
> unhappy with - "I want to leave, you will not miss me." Of
> course they did leave and Strangeways... was on EMI. You are also correct
> about Shakespeare's sister, and Shelaugh Delaney. The Boy... was
> autobiogrpahical, and I don't know but I suspect Bigmouth was a concoction
> of Moz's ideas about his frustration with himself. However, the lyrics to
> that song are a bit dicey, so probably consult Songs That Saved Your Life.
> Okay, see you.
 
Re: Unanswerable (?) questions about The Smiths. - Twinkle comment.

> Golden Lights by Twinkle - a great sounding original. Not a bad version by
> the smiths - perhaps only one or two enjoyed it, but I did. It was great
> when this came out because many of these songs have just been forgotton by
> the masses... I have Terry on 7" by Twinkle and despite the scratches
> it still has a haunting sound and some 'twangly' guitars !!

> I would really love to have been a 'fly' on the wall in Geoff Travis's
> office on the day when The Smiths left Rough Trade for EMI.

> In the early 90s, I wondered how Johnny had 'escaped' from EMI....

> Lucky.

That is a great song both by Twinkle and Moz. There are so many 1950's girl groups(it was a group wasn't it?) that were so good but not as popular as others of that time. The fate of Twinkle makes her/them even more compelling and the music more haunting. What many don't realize, and perhaps Morrissey did, is that 1950's music is very related and influencial of the '70's and '80's punk/new wave movement.
 
Re: Unanswerable (?) questions about The Smiths. - Twinkle comment.

> That is a great song both by Twinkle and Moz. There are so many 1950's
> girl groups(it was a group wasn't it?) that were so good but not as
> popular as others of that time. The fate of Twinkle makes her/them even
> more compelling and the music more haunting. What many don't realize, and
> perhaps Morrissey did, is that 1950's music is very related and
> influencial of the '70's and '80's punk/new wave movement.

I believe twinkle and the rest were from the 60's. Twinkle was a teen girl. Uncut did a short article on her awhile back, and if I'm not mistaken she got tired of the music scene fairly quickly.

I always thought the lyrics fit a Moz song, but the song was a bit 'overproduced' for the Smiths, to be truly great.

And yes, the 50's and 60's had a big effect on Punk. Listen to the Ramones doing any of their cover songs, or the Dolls with their girl-group influence, or the Pistols covering the Who or Eddie Cochran.
 
Seems to me that many of these songs mean different things to many different people.

*Perhaps I am just complicating this discussion further*

> School Teacher Shankly is not in agreement.
 
Re: Billy Mackenzie

> ....have you read the Billy Mackenzie life story, The Glamour Chase?

> Absolutely essential, a beautiful reminder of a glorious talent.

Were the Associates better known in the UK? Because I can never find much of anything by or about them in the States. However, judging from the mp3s I have and the info/photos from websites, Billy MacKenzie was indeed lovely and an amazing singer.
 
>Shakespeare's sister was a fictional idea from a feminist essay

By Virginia Woolf, I believe. However, the phrase "Shakespeare's sister" is also used in the Tennessee Williams play "The Glass Menagerie".
 
associates

...they weren't particularly massive in the UK, either.... they had a smattering of top 20 hits, but their appeal was always more underground. They were media darlings in the early 80s, but by the mid-late 80s, they were way over.

The Glamour Chase book is still available, and is definitely a must-read. There's this great review, too, check the story of the day Billy was dropped by Warner Bros....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0747536155/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-2531924-4725241

> Were the Associates better known in the UK? Because I can never find much
> of anything by or about them in the States. However, judging from the mp3s
> I have and the info/photos from websites, Billy MacKenzie was indeed
> lovely and an amazing singer.
 
gimp!

> ...they weren't particularly massive in the UK, either.... they had a
> smattering of top 20 hits, but their appeal was always more underground.
> They were media darlings in the early 80s, but by the mid-late 80s, they
> were way over.

> The Glamour Chase book is still available, and is definitely a must-read.
> There's this great review, too, check the story of the day Billy was
> dropped by Warner Bros....
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0747536155/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-2531924-4725241
 
Associates

> yes - the original William was Billy Mackenzie who was in The Associates.
> there was a song called 'Steven, it was really something' written by a man
> who was also in The Associates, Alan Rankine, in reply to Morrissey.

> (i think that's right).

Alan Rankine was Billy MacKenzie's songwriting partner in the early days of the Associates, responsible for the still intriguing "Sulk" album (1982). Their relationship began to crumble under the grind of promoting the LP. This was made worse when MacKenzie pulled out of a British tour to support the LP. By the autumn of 1982, Rankine had parted company with the band.

In 1993, Rankine and MacKenzie were reunited. They recorded 6 demo tracks together, including the Glam rock tinged "Stephen, You're Really Something". Sadly, this reunion was short-lived, and they didn't work together again. You can hear this track (and the 5 others from the sessions) on the "Double Hipness" CD.

TMF
 
Re: Associates

Is "The First of the Gang To Die" about Billy Mackenzie, I wonder?
 
Re: Associates

> Is "The First of the Gang To Die" about Billy Mackenzie, I
> wonder?

Don't be such an arsehole!!
 
I thought William was Billy Liar because of the parallels between the song and the book - 'humdrum town' (Bradford?) 'fat girl' (possibly the rather homely girlfriend of the three whose name has escaped me) and the lyric 'Everybody's got to live their life, and God knows I've got to live mine' matches a line from the book 'Everybody's got to live their life father - you yours and I mine!' (or something along those lines).

And Shelia is most probably Shelagh Delaney who wrote 'A Taste of Honey' which Morrissey nicked a serious amount of quotes and concepts from. Mush together 'Reel Around the Fountain' and 'This Night Has Opened My Eyes' and you're not a million miles away from the script.

LMC x

> Moz thought it was a cute song.
> Moz watches too many old movies.

> William was one of Moz's boytoys (probably) or maybe it was Billy Budd
> from the movie. Shiela = Shelaugh Delaney (playwright), Mr. Shankly was
> one of Moz's bosses back when he had to take a job to support his music
> consuming habits, before he struck it rich. Shakespeare's sister was a
> fictional idea from a feminist essay that pondered what kind of education
> Shakespear's sister would have had; as in she shouldn't have had the same
> opportunities afforded to her due to sexism.
 
> I thought William was Billy Liar because of the parallels between the song
> and the book - 'humdrum town' (Bradford?) 'fat girl' (possibly the rather
> homely girlfriend of the three whose name has escaped me) and the lyric
> 'Everybody's got to live their life, and God knows I've got to live mine'
> matches a line from the book 'Everybody's got to live their life father -
> you yours and I mine!' (or something along those lines).

> And Shelia is most probably Shelagh Delaney who wrote 'A Taste of Honey'
> which Morrissey nicked a serious amount of quotes and concepts from. Mush
> together 'Reel Around the Fountain' and 'This Night Has Opened My Eyes'
> and you're not a million miles away from the script.

Well that's all the joy sucked out of those songs then.

HN
 
> Well that's all the joy sucked out of those songs then.

> HN

it's been a really good thread though! i hope it doesn't dissapear off the page too quickly.
 
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