The Smiths and Factory Records

[Dazza]

Morning - as we know the Smiths signed to Rough Trade after Johnny went down there in person with demos and demanded that Geoff Travis listen to them (that's how the story goes anyway). But before that there's a story to the effect of:- the Smiths tried to sign with Factory/could have signed with them.

Tony Wilson (RIP) told a story in a documentary once about meeting Morrissey (I think it was at M's home but will be corrected) and he intimated that, to all intents and purposes, he thought Morrissey was something of a dreamer at the time who would never 'make it' in popular music.

There's also the line at the end of 24 hour party people where Tony's at the end of his life and they're going through the inventory at the gates of heaven "you know you should have signed the Smiths - but you were right about Mick Hucknall!!".

Added into this is the less than complimentary things Morrissey said about Wilson as a person (it appeared to be mutual) and he didn't seem overly keen on Factory or their main acts either - the Smiths did play the Hacienda a couple of times if I'm right, did that stop for a reason?

He appeared to be less than keen on the whole 'Madchester' thing.

So I suppose this comes down to a few things:-

1) who turned who down? did the Smiths refuse an offer from Factory or did AH Wilson genuinely have no interest in signing them?
2) did the Smiths ever want to be on Factory anyway, or were Rough Trade always their first choice?
3) if they ever HAD signed to them (and been on the same label as New Order no less) how might that have gone?

Off the top of my head, the Smiths on Factory would never have worked or lasted for several reasons:-

1) it's hard to imagine Morrissey handing over the artwork/sleeve design of his band's work to Peter Savile, who was Factory's in-house guy for that sort of thing. The same could be said of Factory's preferred producers.
2) they were hardly known for bending over backwards to promote their bands, get them exposure, radio play etc. The Smiths (and Moz in particular) had enough gripes with Rough Trade over that sort of thing and Factory were even worse.
3) the people running the label seemed to see it as a sort of 'public service' and many of them had little to no business sense - poor decision making ultimately led to the label's demise in the early 1990s. They were notoriously bad with money.
4) having two enormous bands like that on an independent label is a source of friction - both are going to want preferential treatment while believing that the other is getting precisely that. Didn't the Fall leave Rough Trade over a similar issue?
5) what also needs to be remembered is that New Order's hard-earned money (from both record sales and touring) was propping up the black hole/sacred cow known as the Hacienda for several years. Bernard was the first to really notice this and kick off about it - and I don't blame him for resenting the hit to his living standards that was done in the name of a club that was leaking money. Now you can ask why they didn't ask further questions from the outset and I'm sure Morrissey/Marr would have done - they certainly wouldn't have put up with a scenario where they were touring their backsides off and seeing none of the proceeds.
6) Morrissey in particular couldn't stand 'Madchester' and Factory were a massive part of that.
7) given the Wilson-Morrissey relationship that went on to exist you can't see that going on for too long without going up in a ball of flames.

Thoughts appreciated as always - thanks...

 

[The Alchemist]

Interesting post.

Not sure if you've seen this, or if it will help.

I saw it recently.

Two isolated clips of Tony Wilson talking about it:

 

[The Alchemist]

I agree that Tony and Morrissey would never have been able get along for very long, so it's probably a good thing they didn't sign (and for all the other reasons you mentioned)

I think you're right about the New Order dimension in particular - I believe there was no love lost between those guys and Morrissey.

One account I remember hearing was that they were in the same location once (not sure where), and someone commented on Morrissey's apparently depressive lyrics and subject matter etc - they were basically goading him by saying that at least Ian (Curtis) had the balls to end his life.

Apparently Morrissey just walked away without saying anything - probably an event that served as a further example to him of a toxic and/or toxic male environment (reminiscent of his school days, that he hoped he wouldn't encounter the likes of again)

Also likely something that made him even more steadfast and defiant about who he was and what he was writing about.


'That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore'


'I'm Not A Man'

 

[Dazza1982]

I agree that Tony and Morrissey would never have been able get along for very long, so it's probably a good thing they didn't sign (and for all the other reasons you mentioned)

I think you're right about the New Order dimension in particular - I believe there was no love lost between those guys and Morrissey.

One account I remember hearing was that they were in the same location once (not sure where), and someone commented on Morrissey's apparently depressive lyrics and subject matter etc - they were basically goading him by saying that at least Ian (Curtis) had the balls to end his life.

Apparently Morrissey just walked away without saying anything - probably an event that served as a further example to him of a toxic and/or toxic male environment (reminiscent of his school days, that he hoped he wouldn't encounter the likes of again)

Also likely something that made him even more steadfast and defiant about who he was and what he was writing about.


'That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore'


'I'm Not A Man'

Thanks for that - yeah I remember hearing that it was Peter Hook who said something like:-

"Morrissey, you know what your problem is? You didn't have the guts to kill yourself like Ian did" - that's a pretty vile thing to come out with and to use your mate's death as a vehicle to attack someone else is pretty low.

It might have been in the Hacienda, which I think was built around 1983-4. To be fair you get the impression that Bernard probably wouldn't have taken Morrissey clubbing with him (and Marr ran to Bernard as a haven post-Smiths of course, they're still mates to this day). But I've got Bernard's book and he hardly mentions Morrissey at all.

Hooky on the other hand seems to have a genuine antipathy him for whatever reason. I've grown to dislike Hooky somewhat over the years, he seems rather angry and boorish, note that the other members of the band sided with Bernard and stayed.

The other two (Steve and Gillian, who called themselves the other two when New Order were on hiatus) are notoriously quiet and don't say all that much.

 

[Dazza]

I agree that Tony and Morrissey would never have been able get along for very long, so it's probably a good thing they didn't sign (and for all the other reasons you mentioned)

I think you're right about the New Order dimension in particular - I believe there was no love lost between those guys and Morrissey.

One account I remember hearing was that they were in the same location once (not sure where), and someone commented on Morrissey's apparently depressive lyrics and subject matter etc - they were basically goading him by saying that at least Ian (Curtis) had the balls to end his life.

Apparently Morrissey just walked away without saying anything - probably an event that served as a further example to him of a toxic and/or toxic male environment (reminiscent of his school days, that he hoped he wouldn't encounter the likes of again)

Also likely something that made him even more steadfast and defiant about who he was and what he was writing about.


'That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore'


'I'm Not A Man'

Yeah it was Peter Hook who said:-

You know what your problem is Morrissey? You never had the guts to kill yourself like Ian did...

It was Hook who said it (really doesn't sound like something Bernard would say and Steve/Gillian were fairly quiet).

Peter went way, way down in my estimation when it came out he'd said that.

Bernard probably 'doesn't like' Morrissey but Hooky seems to have a pathological hatred of the man, for whatever reason.

Note that the other members of New Order sided with Bernard and stayed, also note how much happier Bernard has seemed in the years since.

 

[The Alchemist]

Yeah it was Peter Hook who said:-

You know what your problem is Morrissey? You never had the guts to kill yourself like Ian did...

It was Hook who said it (really doesn't sound like something Bernard would say and Steve/Gillian were fairly quiet).

Peter went way, way down in my estimation when it came out he'd said that.

Bernard probably 'doesn't like' Morrissey but Hooky seems to have a pathological hatred of the man, for whatever reason.

Note that the other members of New Order sided with Bernard and stayed, also note how much happier Bernard has seemed in the years since.

Very interesting.

Also interesting to me that Morrissey has since said on more than one occasion how much he admires the courage of those that do end their own lives.

Whilst there is an obvious danger there of glorifying suicide, I happen to agree that you have to be brave to actually go through with it. Many people feel an immense amount of pain, yet can't bring themselves to end it.

It's been a perennially thorny subject, but should be talked about more, and openly. There should not be a stigma, but it should not be glorified either.

My own view is that it's a permanent solution to temporary problems. There is a light that never goes out....

But at the same time, that's not to judge or diminish those who ultimately do decide to leave this unhappy planet.

There is another world
There is a better world
Well, there must be ( ? )

I love Jim Jim Falls in its own right, but on this subject it says 'whatever you choose to do, just do it'

Don't constantly think about it, don't go on about it, don't put it off, don't just talk about it, don't flip flop.

That includes committing to living and singing, which Morrissey has consistently chosen to go on doing (thank heavens)

If you're gonna sing, then sing
Just don't talk about it
If you're gonna live, then live
Don't talk about it

There is a bravery in living too.

"In the end one needs more courage to live than to kill himself" - Albert Camus

 

[Anonymous label]

Yeah it was Peter Hook who said:-

You know what your problem is Morrissey? You never had the guts to kill yourself like Ian did...

It was Hook who said it (really doesn't sound like something Bernard would say and Steve/Gillian were fairly quiet).

I thought that it was Rob Gretton who said that.....

 

[The Alchemist]

I thought that it was Rob Gretton who said that.....

I can imagine Rob saying something like that to be fair.

 

[Surface]

Thanks for that - yeah I remember hearing that it was Peter Hook who said something like:-

"Morrissey, you know what your problem is? You didn't have the guts to kill yourself like Ian did" - that's a pretty vile thing to come out with and to use your mate's death as a vehicle to attack someone else is pretty low.

It might have been in the Hacienda, which I think was built around 1983-4. To be fair you get the impression that Bernard probably wouldn't have taken Morrissey clubbing with him (and Marr ran to Bernard as a haven post-Smiths of course, they're still mates to this day). But I've got Bernard's book and he hardly mentions Morrissey at all.

Hooky on the other hand seems to have a genuine antipathy him for whatever reason. I've grown to dislike Hooky somewhat over the years, he seems rather angry and boorish, note that the other members of the band sided with Bernard and stayed.

The other two (Steve and Gillian, who called themselves the other two when New Order were on hiatus) are notoriously quiet and don't say all that much.

It wasn't Peter Hook, it was Rob Gretton who said that.

 

[Dazza]

It wasn't Peter Hook, it was Rob Gretton who said that.

Noted - I've seen the quote attributed to Peter, but if it was the late Rob Gretton then I'm happy to be corrected.

Apologies to friends of Peter Hook for any upset caused.

 

[Dazza]

Very interesting.

Also interesting to me that Morrissey has since said on more than one occasion how much he admires the courage of those that do end their own lives.

Whilst there is an obvious danger there of glorifying suicide, I happen to agree that you have to be brave to actually go through with it. Many people feel an immense amount of pain, yet can't bring themselves to end it.

It's been a perennially thorny subject, but should be talked about more, and openly. There should not be a stigma, but it should not be glorified either.

My own view is that it's a permanent solution to temporary problems. There is a light that never goes out....

But at the same time, that's not to judge or diminish those who ultimately do decide to leave this unhappy planet.

There is another world
There is a better world
Well, there must be ( ? )

I love Jim Jim Falls in its own right, but on this subject it says 'whatever you choose to do, just do it'

Don't constantly think about it, don't go on about it, don't put it off, don't just talk about it, don't flip flop.

That includes committing to living and singing, which Morrissey has consistently chosen to go on doing (thank heavens)

If you're gonna sing, then sing
Just don't talk about it
If you're gonna live, then live
Don't talk about it

There is a bravery in living too.

"In the end one needs more courage to live than to kill himself" - Albert Camus

Thanks for that - if someone is happy to correct me and confirm that it was Rob Gretton and not Peter Hook who said that, then I'm happy to be corrected - and apologise to Peter Hook/friends of his accordingly.

The quote was once attributed to him somewhere and it impacted my view of him as a person - negatively I should add. Will have to re-visit that point if he indeed did not say it, but I'm sure you'll appreciate it's a pretty sick comment to come out with.

Off topic re:- suicide. I've never bought into the 'coward's way out' narrative of it. Suicide is the biggest killer of men under 50 in this country for a multitude of reasons.

That comment from Gretton/Hook (whoever said it) will have stayed with Morrissey, of course it will.

To end one's own life he or she must think that there is no point to their current existence, nor any prospect of that improving in the foreseeable future. Look at how many prisoners end their own lives, or people who have been accused of crimes and think they are going to jail.

To be 'free' on the outside and still feel that way...it must take a sort of 'certainty' within that can't come from a place of cowardice.

You're right, glorifying it would be the wrong thing to do (and I think a song like 'Asleep' veers worryingly close to that line) but condemning it as 'the coward's way out' makes no sense.

 

[Surface]

Noted - I've seen the quote attributed to Peter, but if it was the late Rob Gretton then I'm happy to be corrected.

Apologies to friends of Peter Hook for any upset caused.

Peter re quoted Rob's comments in one of his books so sometimes it's assumed he said it.

“Now I don't know why, but Morrissey had always hated Joy Division. Maybe Rob got it right when after a lively debate as the cameras were turned off he turned to Morrissey and said, 'The trouble with you, Morrissey, is that you've never had the guts to kill yourself like Ian. You're f***ing jealous.' You should have seen his face as he stormed off. I laughed me bollocks off.”​

― Peter Hook, The Haçienda: How Not to Run a Club

 

[Dazza]

Peter re quoted Rob's comments in one of his books so sometimes it's assumed he said it.

“Now I don't know why, but Morrissey had always hated Joy Division. Maybe Rob got it right when after a lively debate as the cameras were turned off he turned to Morrissey and said, 'The trouble with you, Morrissey, is that you've never had the guts to kill yourself like Ian. You're f***ing jealous.' You should have seen his face as he stormed off. I laughed me bollocks off.”​

― Peter Hook, The Haçienda: How Not to Run a Club

thanks - if Peter didn't say it and Rob did then I want that to be clarified.

Rob's no longer here to defend himself but it's a horrific thing to say about anybody.

Loads of time for Bernard Sumner BTW, that first Electronic album is an absolute gem and Johnny was clearly unwinding from the chaos of the Smiths...

 

[Surface]

thanks - if Peter didn't say it and Rob did then I want that to be clarified.

Rob's no longer here to defend himself but it's a horrific thing to say about anybody.

Loads of time for Bernard Sumner BTW, that first Electronic album is an absolute gem and Johnny was clearly unwinding from the chaos of the Smiths...

Yes I agree, it's not a nice thing to say.

 

[Surface]

Morning - as we know the Smiths signed to Rough Trade after Johnny went down there in person with demos and demanded that Geoff Travis listen to them (that's how the story goes anyway). But before that there's a story to the effect of:- the Smiths tried to sign with Factory/could have signed with them.

Tony Wilson (RIP) told a story in a documentary once about meeting Morrissey (I think it was at M's home but will be corrected) and he intimated that, to all intents and purposes, he thought Morrissey was something of a dreamer at the time who would never 'make it' in popular music.

There's also the line at the end of 24 hour party people where Tony's at the end of his life and they're going through the inventory at the gates of heaven "you know you should have signed the Smiths - but you were right about Mick Hucknall!!".

Added into this is the less than complimentary things Morrissey said about Wilson as a person (it appeared to be mutual) and he didn't seem overly keen on Factory or their main acts either - the Smiths did play the Hacienda a couple of times if I'm right, did that stop for a reason?

He appeared to be less than keen on the whole 'Madchester' thing.

So I suppose this comes down to a few things:-

1) who turned who down? did the Smiths refuse an offer from Factory or did AH Wilson genuinely have no interest in signing them?
2) did the Smiths ever want to be on Factory anyway, or were Rough Trade always their first choice?
3) if they ever HAD signed to them (and been on the same label as New Order no less) how might that have gone?

Off the top of my head, the Smiths on Factory would never have worked or lasted for several reasons:-

1) it's hard to imagine Morrissey handing over the artwork/sleeve design of his band's work to Peter Savile, who was Factory's in-house guy for that sort of thing. The same could be said of Factory's preferred producers.
2) they were hardly known for bending over backwards to promote their bands, get them exposure, radio play etc. The Smiths (and Moz in particular) had enough gripes with Rough Trade over that sort of thing and Factory were even worse.
3) the people running the label seemed to see it as a sort of 'public service' and many of them had little to no business sense - poor decision making ultimately led to the label's demise in the early 1990s. They were notoriously bad with money.
4) having two enormous bands like that on an independent label is a source of friction - both are going to want preferential treatment while believing that the other is getting precisely that. Didn't the Fall leave Rough Trade over a similar issue?
5) what also needs to be remembered is that New Order's hard-earned money (from both record sales and touring) was propping up the black hole/sacred cow known as the Hacienda for several years. Bernard was the first to really notice this and kick off about it - and I don't blame him for resenting the hit to his living standards that was done in the name of a club that was leaking money. Now you can ask why they didn't ask further questions from the outset and I'm sure Morrissey/Marr would have done - they certainly wouldn't have put up with a scenario where they were touring their backsides off and seeing none of the proceeds.
6) Morrissey in particular couldn't stand 'Madchester' and Factory were a massive part of that.
7) given the Wilson-Morrissey relationship that went on to exist you can't see that going on for too long without going up in a ball of flames.

Thoughts appreciated as always - thanks...

Here's an interview with Tony which links to some of the things you mention in your post.

Did you ever try and sign The Smiths?
"No. I was very close to The Smiths. I was very close to Morrissey. Morrissey was part of that little punk scene until 77 and there was a social whirl around a house called 35 Mayfield Road where Steven partially lived and where Linder lived, who was Howard Devoto's girlfriend and also still today is Morrissey's best friend. But I treated Steven, he was our genius writer. He was the speccy kid in the corner, the clever little swotty outsider boy, and very brilliant. My first contact with him was when he sent me as a schoolboy, a battered New York Dolls album sleeve and said 'Dear Mr Wilson, why can't there be more bands on television like this?' so I knew him and I actually was encouraging his writing. He wrote a fantastic short play about eating toast and I think he gave it to me and I lost it.
Then, at some point, whenever it was in 1980, he phoned me up and said would you come and see me. I drove out to King's Road, Stretford, to his mum's house, went to his bedroom upstairs and sat on the edge of the bed while he sat on the chair, surrounded by James Dean posters and he informed me that he'd decided to become a pop star. I sort of went 'well Steven that's very interesting', and inside I was thinking 'you must be f***ing joking'. The least likely, you're off your f***ing head. Completely in my mind, absolutely, the least likely rock n roll star imaginable in the universe.
So then obviously we were all part of a group of mutual friends and I can remember saying this same thing to Richard Boon, my mate who manages the Buzzcocks, and about four or five months later the two of us went to a gig in the Manhattan Club in Manchester. I think it was probably the Smiths' first or second gig and as we walked out, I was blown away, it was fantastic, and he said 'what do you think?', and I said 'I take it back completely, he's amazing'.
However, at that point in time Factory had gone through its wonder days of 78, 79 and we were now in late 1980 and into early 81. This is pre 'Blue Monday'. We weren't selling records, we were useless, we'd lost our plot and I was very depressed by the company. I had a band called Stockholm Monsters, I couldn't sell Stockholm Monsters records and I thought fine and my honest approach was, I'm not going to saddle Steven with this pile of shit, with Factory when it's shit. So I didn't even pursue it. I said to him 'I wouldn't be any use to you'. That was my version of why I didn't sign the Smiths. I know the Smiths have their version. Everyone has.
Do you regret not signing them?
"Not at all. Not for one moment. Oasis have their version of why I didn't sign Oasis. Everyone has their own version of these stories. Part of the fun of the movie ['24 Hour Party People'] is it messes around all these things. Morrissey and The Smiths was part of the movie, quite a large part of the second draft. The other bit was, though, the main memory I have of that point was that Rob Gretton wouldn't sign them. He'd tell them, 'because your demo's shit. Do another demo'. Which it was. The fact that Rob Gretton was wondering around Manchester, shouting at anyone he'd meet, 'The Smiths are the new Beatles', because he was a massive fun. 'But your demo's shit we're not signing you'. Which is typical Rob. About a year and a half later, Pinnacle records went bankrupt and three months later was bought up by Steve Mason and resurfaces, but Rough Trade survived through that period. If The Smiths had not been on Rough Trade, Rough Trade would not have survived. If Rough Trade would have gone down in 82 when Pinnacle went down, it would have all been over. So in some strange historical way, The Smiths being on Rough Trade was the economic safety net for the British independent record movement.
Is it true that Morrissey pulled music from the '24 Hour Party People'?
"I don't know. I've no idea. It wouldn't surprise me one little bit because he's a miserable git. Also, he would have broken my heart. He's a very talented boy, but he's actually one of the most miserable. . . he's actually, let's be really honest about it, he's actually a nasty person, as a human being. As was John Lennon. Because he treats good human beings who help him - this isn't me, I've never helped him, I'm fond of him because I'm fond of his talent and his creativity - he treats excellent good human beings who try to help him like pieces of dog dirt. He tramples on them. It's not his fault, he's just a terribly unpleasant human being, in terms of pure human values, he is not a nice person."
Why do you think he's like that?
"I've no idea. Some people are nasty people. One of the things was, from the beginning, very cleverly, when he was doing his second gig, he behaved like he was Little Richard, like a major pop star. With that arrogance, with that treatment of other people. That was his thing and it worked. But he's a miserable, he's not a nice human being."

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

 

[The Alchemist]

About a year and a half later, Pinnacle records went bankrupt and three months later was bought up by Steve Mason and resurfaces, but Rough Trade survived through that period. If The Smiths had not been on Rough Trade, Rough Trade would not have survived. If Rough Trade would have gone down in 82 when Pinnacle went down, it would have all been over. So in some strange historical way, The Smiths being on Rough Trade was the economic safety net for the British independent record movement.

This was very insightful for me, I had no idea about that.

Not sure what to make of the comments about Morrissey being nasty. I think people can get that impression from his natural defensiveness or other pre-emptive moves to protect himself.

I believe most of that springs from an underlying web of vulnerabilities, combined with his ragged determination (all of which creates a recipe that invariably ruffles feathers)

England is mine, and it owes me a living.

To declare that is one thing. To go out and take it by force is something else. He didn't want to settle for second best, and he didn't want to compromise. That is bound to cause friction.

 

[Anonymous]

Here's Johnny's take:

“If you were a musician in Manchester at that time, it was almost the law that you went on your hands and knees and begged Tony Wilson for his papal blessing to stick you in the studio, and I wasn’t about to do that,” said Marr. The guitarist added that he didn’t want The Smiths to be “assimilated” into the label’s distinct aesthetic, saying: “So much has been made of Factory apparently turning The Smiths down, but that’s a crock of shit. The Smiths would have signed to Factory over my dead body… I didn’t want to be assimilated into the Factory aesthetic. Before we knew it, we would’ve had side-partings and khaki shorts, with bongos round our necks… No disrespect to A Certain Ratio.” https://www.nme.com/news/music/the-smiths-25-1235161

 

[Geoffrey Ingram]

Madchester wasn't even a thing when The Smiths broke up so number 6 is invalid

 

[Les Tameside]

Saville didn’t do the artwork for the Happy Mondays, I’m not sure he was compulsory.