Talent shouldnt borrow and genius should never steal.

[giant]

After reading in someones post about meeting Mike Joyce and Andy Rourke, that one of them had mentioned the band "Doves," coupled with the Morrissey sighting at one of their recent shows, I decided like it might be worthwhile to purchase a copy of their eponymous cd. I have barely survived through 8 tracks so far and I urge anyone not to buy it. What sonic garbage for music that surrounds just awful lryics, sung by a voice that is very unimpressive. I also am pretty disgusted by these new brit pop bands just rifling through Morrissey's creativity and taking what they want. For example, this band Doves has used all black and white photos of boxers for their sleeve. Ok, boxing is a glorified subject but come on, how many other british pop stars have used it for their cover-art? Here we have professed Morrissey fans doing it, can we be a little more subtle? Also Gene, an adored band and rightfully so but using stills from an old black and white french movie for a sleeve, I mean thats Smiths territory isnt it, to use stills from nostalgic movies? Not to mention their singer, Martin Rossiter's voice on the live album, with its gutteral growls he uses so often in order to accentuate salient points in his songs are so Morrissey like its kind of pathetic. Travis' new single on the radio the chorus of which goes something like "Sing sing sing," anyway its awfully reminiscent to a certain sing your life song...I guess I could go on and nonsensically on but it disturbs me to have this new regime of indie brit pop bands hailed as great when their seemingly just spin-offs.

 

[The Cake Curse]

and Morrissey is a supreme original!

or not?

 

[Greasetea Season3]

I agree, Gene sucks

I hate them and I advise anyone that hasn't bought their album to invest wisely..like a Pulp album.

 

[suzanne]

> and Morrissey is a supreme original!

> or not?

Morrissey has made an entire career of ripping people off and putting his own spin on it.

As much as I love the man and would willingly donate non-vital organs if need be, I realize he is composed of bits of other pop cultural icons strung together in a new and exciting way.

Well, not as much recently as his recent influences don't seem to have the same kick as sheilagh delaney, but he will be forgiven for this transgression....whatever he was thinking at the time *sigh*

 

[the cursed cake]

> Morrissey has made an entire career of ripping people off and
> putting his own spin on it.
> As much as I love the man and would willingly donate non-vital
> organs if need be, I realize he is composed of bits of other pop
> cultural icons strung together in a new and exciting way.

and who's not? I don't think the question is to be put in terms of who he coerces into his own image, but how he does it. And that's been splendid ever since 1983. Agreed.

> Well, not as much recently as his recent influences don't seem
> to have the same kick as sheilagh delaney, but he will be
> forgiven for this transgression....whatever he was thinking at
> the time *sigh*

sure it's not the same kick? Maybe no one upstairs wants to hear it anymore. What's the average age of the music execs nowadays ... aren't they reaching the stage where they remarry a young secretary of 23?

 

[giant]

> and Morrissey is a supreme original!

> or not?
I dont think anyone is ever completely "original" but what he incorporates into his style is never so atrociously blatant as what these new bands are doing. Maybe cultural things become ingrained into our minds subconsciously and we are not even aware of it, while certain images slip out into our own creative works. That would be the benifit of the doubt- rather than saying "this one or that one is ripping off from so and so"- Maybe being able to take from others so no one can notice from whom or where you have taken from, is an Art in itself. Can anyone point out any SPECIFIC examples where Morrissey has used someone elses idea in his own works?

 

[suzanne]

> I dont think anyone is ever completely "original" but
> what he incorporates into his style is never so atrociously
> blatant as what these new bands are doing. Maybe cultural things
> become ingrained into our minds subconsciously and we are not
> even aware of it, while certain images slip out into our own
> creative works. That would be the benifit of the doubt- rather
> than saying "this one or that one is ripping off from so
> and so"- Maybe being able to take from others so no one can
> notice from whom or where you have taken from, is an Art in
> itself. Can anyone point out any SPECIFIC examples where
> Morrissey has used someone elses idea in his own works?

Not blatant?

There is a website somewhere (I think it's It May All End Tomorrow) that has a long-ass collection of every quote Morrissey has lifted from some other work and used it directly as part of his writing.

Not a paraphrase. Direct quotes.

 

[giant]

> Not blatant?

> There is a website somewhere (I think it's It May All End
> Tomorrow) that has a long-ass collection of every quote
> Morrissey has lifted from some other work and used it directly
> as part of his writing.

> Not a paraphrase. Direct quotes.
Yes but his lifts are usually from some obscure source, that was my whole point.

 

[suzanne]

> Yes but his lifts are usually from some obscure source, that was
> my whole point.

What does it matter? Obscure, well known, he lifted them from somebody else.

And those sources aren't exactly "obscure". Many of them were, when they were first displayed, very prominent artifacts of pop culture. Movies with James Dean and Carry-On films being amongst the biggest names of them all. he grew up watching these, writing books and collective every scrap of info on them that he could, and they were as much a part of his language as the Doves using the same idea in making an album cover.

 

[giant]

I think it really does matter. Morrissey's methods of procuring are by far much more respectable. I hardly think Carry on films can be drawn in comparison to Morrissey as far as their Cultural significance and impact especially in England. Morrissey was huge, an international star with many hits on their radio over there. Like you said Morrissey collected "scraps of info", through his own unique intrests and fascinations which many, many times if not all the time, jumped genres into different fields other than music. What bands like Doves and the other indie brits are doing is just repeating what was right in front of them during there adolescence. I find this alot less impressive and by far, dull in comparison to Morrissey's aproach.

> What does it matter? Obscure, well known, he lifted them from
> somebody else.

> And those sources aren't exactly "obscure". Many of
> them were, when they were first displayed, very prominent
> artifacts of pop culture. Movies with James Dean and Carry-On
> films being amongst the biggest names of them all. he grew up
> watching these, writing books and collective every scrap of info
> on them that he could, and they were as much a part of his
> language as the Doves using the same idea in making an album
> cover.

 

[suzanne]

> I think it really does matter. Morrissey's methods of procuring
> are by far much more respectable. I hardly think Carry on films
> can be drawn in comparison to Morrissey as far as their Cultural
> significance and impact especially in England. Morrissey was
> huge, an international star with many hits on their radio over
> there. Like you said Morrissey collected "scraps of
> info", through his own unique intrests and fascinations
> which many, many times if not all the time, jumped genres into
> different fields other than music. What bands like Doves and the
> other indie brits are doing is just repeating what was right in
> front of them during there adolescence. I find this alot less
> impressive and by far, dull in comparison to Morrissey's
> aproach.

Quoth (paraphrasingly) David Bowie when he covered one of Morrissey's songs circa 1992:

"I'm doing him doing me."

And Morrissey didn't try to hide it. He used Mick Ronson (who had worked with Bowie) as a producer and ran around in lame shirts, gleefully playing up the glam queen to a lesser extent than David Bowie was willing to do.

And I don't think David Bowie is an obscure cultural icon.

And let's not forget the latest tour with Morrissey directly ripping off Elvis Presley. I'm sure your Franklin Mint commemorative plates would have verified for you that Elvis did indeed have a leather suit and he did indeed put his name in huge, bright, Las Vegas letters above the stage.

 

[Somnium]

> Quoth (paraphrasingly) David Bowie when he covered one of
> Morrissey's songs circa 1992:

> "I'm doing him doing me."

> And Morrissey didn't try to hide it. He used Mick Ronson (who
> had worked with Bowie) as a producer and ran around in lame
> shirts, gleefully playing up the glam queen to a lesser extent
> than David Bowie was willing to do.

> And I don't think David Bowie is an obscure cultural icon.

> And let's not forget the latest tour with Morrissey directly
> ripping off Elvis Presley. I'm sure your Franklin Mint
> commemorative plates would have verified for you that Elvis did
> indeed have a leather suit and he did indeed put his name in
> huge, bright, Las Vegas letters above the stage.

he molds his art through his past idols, that's for sure!!!! If that makes him a shoplifter...that's what he IS!!!!

 

[Bertrand]

> After reading in someones post about meeting Mike Joyce and Andy
> Rourke, that one of them had mentioned the band
> "Doves," coupled with the Morrissey sighting at one of
> their recent shows, I decided like it might be worthwhile to
> purchase a copy of their eponymous cd. I have barely survived
> through 8 tracks so far and I urge anyone not to buy it. What
> sonic garbage for music that surrounds just awful lryics, sung
> by a voice that is very unimpressive. I also am pretty disgusted
> by these new brit pop bands just rifling through Morrissey's
> creativity and taking what they want. For example, this band
> Doves has used all black and white photos of boxers for their
> sleeve. Ok, boxing is a glorified subject but come on, how many
> other british pop stars have used it for their cover-art? Here
> we have professed Morrissey fans doing it, can we be a little
> more subtle? Also Gene, an adored band and rightfully so but
> using stills from an old black and white french movie for a
> sleeve, I mean thats Smiths territory isnt it, to use stills
> from nostalgic movies? Not to mention their singer, Martin
> Rossiter's voice on the live album, with its gutteral growls he
> uses so often in order to accentuate salient points in his songs
> are so Morrissey like its kind of pathetic. Travis' new single
> on the radio the chorus of which goes something like "Sing
> sing sing," anyway its awfully reminiscent to a certain
> sing your life song...I guess I could go on and nonsensically on
> but it disturbs me to have this new regime of indie brit pop
> bands hailed as great when their seemingly just spin-offs.

I think you have a bad case of seeing the world through Moz tinted glasses.

 

[giant]

> true, true

I think you have a bad case of seeing the world through Moz
> tinted glasses.

 

[giant]

> I think stage theatrics are a little different than writing material. Which was again, my point, again.

Quoth (paraphrasingly) David Bowie when he covered one of
> Morrissey's songs circa 1992:

> "I'm doing him doing me."

> And Morrissey didn't try to hide it. He used Mick Ronson (who
> had worked with Bowie) as a producer and ran around in lame
> shirts, gleefully playing up the glam queen to a lesser extent
> than David Bowie was willing to do.

> And I don't think David Bowie is an obscure cultural icon.

> And let's not forget the latest tour with Morrissey directly
> ripping off Elvis Presley. I'm sure your Franklin Mint
> commemorative plates would have verified for you that Elvis did
> indeed have a leather suit and he did indeed put his name in
> huge, bright, Las Vegas letters above the stage.

 

[suzanne]

*eye roll*

m'kay. if you refuse to believe that morrissey dressing up in a leather suit is not the same thing as (or more BLATANT than) the Doves getting inspiration to take a still from an old movie for their album cover, so be it. i'm sure you would have been crying foul had they been romping around on stage with gladioli, however.

 

[giant]

> yes I definately would have. But thats not the context of what we were discussing

*eye roll*

> m'kay. if you refuse to believe that morrissey dressing up in a
> leather suit is not the same thing as (or more BLATANT than) the
> Doves getting inspiration to take a still from an old movie for
> their album cover, so be it. i'm sure you would have been crying
> foul had they been romping around on stage with gladioli,
> however.

 

[Ruffian]

Isn't plagiarism the highest form of flattery?

But you're also correct.. It is the most irritating form of flattery.

And remember, giant, no-one is original anymore..

 

[suzanne]

you know, i've been trying to come up with a reply to this that isn't incredibly mean, but I can't.

This the lamest reasoning I've ever heard for anything.

"hi. i'm here to discuss why it's an awful thing that someone copied what morrissey did on the 3rd day of August in 1985 involving the brand of shoes he was wearing. anything you have to say in argument doesn't fit because it didn't happen on August 5th, and even though you mentioned clothing, you didn't mention shoes."