Who Put the R in Arsehole?

[Dave]

We went to a diner last night in downtown LA and had to wait about 20 minutes for a table. The people waiting in front of us were coincidentally having the taco vs. take-o conversation, he was talking about his Irish friend. I thought, "Oh, this'll be interesting." Then they sat them down and us down right next to them and I overheard their discussion on linguistics turned to the difference in presentation and attitude between a douchebag and a dumbass. I guess this story has no point other than I heard almost the same conversation verbatim while waiting for a table last night. And I thought of you guys. Then they started talking about douchebags and dumbasses and I didn't stop thinking of you guys.

 

[Will_Never_Marry]

So if "they" say "tack-o" do they also say
"tor-till-ah" or "tor-tea-ah"
and
"Jalop-i-noes" or "Ha-la-pea-noes" or "Hal-la-pay-noes"
and
"Kay-sah-dill-ah" or Kay-sah-dee-ah"?

We say (us Brits) "Jalop-i-noes" and "tor-till-ah". As for the Kay-sah-dill-ah or the other word. I don't know because I'm not sure what that word is meant to be.

 

[Dave]

We say (us Brits) "Jalop-i-noes" and "tor-till-ah". As for the Kay-sah-dill-ah or the other word. I don't know because I'm not sure what that word is meant to be.

quesa is cheese, and a quesadilla is a grilled tortilla with cheese melting inside.

 

[The Cat's Mother]

We say (us Brits) "Jalop-i-noes" and "tor-till-ah". As for the Kay-sah-dill-ah or the other word. I don't know because I'm not sure what that word is meant to be.

Agree and disagree. I'd say "jalop-i-noes" and "tor-tea-ah".

 

[I am a Ghost]

We went to a diner last night in downtown LA and had to wait about 20 minutes for a table. The people waiting in front of us were coincidentally having the taco vs. take-o conversation, he was talking about his Irish friend. I thought, "Oh, this'll be interesting." Then they sat them down and us down right next to them and I overheard their discussion on linguistics turned to the difference in presentation and attitude between a douchebag and a dumbass. I guess this story has no point other than I heard almost the same conversation verbatim while waiting for a table last night. And I thought of you guys. Then they started talking about douchebags and dumbasses and I didn't stop thinking of you guys.

That is nice. If it came to me having to say Taaaaaah-co to get a Taco, I would of course do so.

Back to the original ass and arse conundrum;there is a song where Morrissey says "dimass", too. "Dimarse" wouldn't sound quite as effective, but it is still a little odd to hear "dimass". Or perhaps I imagined this, I'm tired.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

That is nice. If it came to me having to say Taaaaaah-co to get a Taco, I would of course do so.

Back to the original ass and arse conundrum;there is a song where Morrissey says "dimass", too. "Dimarse" wouldn't sound quite as effective, but it is still a little odd to hear "dimass". Or perhaps I imagined this, I'm tired.

The "dim-ass teen on the spree"? That's funny, I thought it was a strange Anglo-American blend. We often say "dumb-ass," but I can't say I've heard "dim-ass" used before.

 

[M-in-Oz]

It's always be pronounced arse by me (and the rest of Australia)

I found this explanation on the 'seperated by a common language blog'

"Until the late eighteenth century, "ass" presumably had no profane meaning and simply referred to the animal now mostly called donkey. Because of the increasingly non-rhotic nature of standard British English, "arse" was often rendered "ass". However indirect evidence of the change from arse to ass traces back to 1785 (in euphemistic avoidance of ass "donkey" by polite speakers) and perhaps to Shakespeare, if Nick Bottom transformed into a donkey in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" (1594) is such a word-play. This usage was also adopted in America, which is why the word "arse" is not usually used in the United States".

http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2006/08/arse-ass-and-other-bottoms.html

So, I guess the question is who took the R out of arsehole.

Just to be difficult and add another word into the fire - what is up with the pronunciation of Antartica? Why is it often pronounced as an-arc-tica?

 

[the_kaz]

As a soon-to-be post-graduate student of English Language & Linguistics, I'm greatly enjoying this thread! And I'm learning a lot too!

 

[Will_Never_Marry]

Agree and disagree. I'd say "jalop-i-noes" and "tor-tea-ah".

Ah yes that's what I meant to put "tor-tea-ah" not "tor-till-ah".

 

[Girl-with-the-Thorn]

England is not the world, either.

I guarantee you that the typical Californian is going to pronounce items on a Mexican restaurant's menu more in line with "the correct Spanish form" than the typical English person. We don't say "tack-o" and neither do native Mexicans and if it's even a word in Spanish, I'm sure the a gets a soft sound. I'm also very sure that Italians do not say paa-sta with that sad flat bleating a. (But I love the English. I just don't think you're in any way superior.)

But French is the best example. English people pronounce French words as if they were English words, which I suppose they do become... but Americans, while not speaking them as French would, come a lot closer.

Sorry to interject, but I thought I'd be a smart-arse (not smart-ass ) and use my Spanish skillz. 'Taco' is a Spanish word, and can mean a variety of things. It is generally pronounced as it's spelled, with a short 'a' and 'o'. At least that's how I always heard it pronounced, it may differ across countries though.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Report back:

> Why don't Americans say "arse"? Everyone else does.

"No they don't.

It's a totally regular sound-change, where postvocalic "r"
before an "s" drops out in many dialects. It's the same as in
"curse"/"cuss", "burst"/"bust"/, "horse"/"hoss". But in the
case of "ass", it stuck to become the dominant form in
American English. For the other forms, they vary by dialect
and situation."

So, it's just part of the American accent. The spelling changed to conform to the dominant pronunciation.

 

[DAVIE]

Come on, it's obviously arse....

Jim Royle (the Royle Family) towards Americans saying ass instead of arse - "MY ARSE"

 

[Mmmmmm]

Perhaps in America the "R" was sold off in the great American domestic "R" exchange.
In the northeast the letter R is frequently sold off to southern states. Consider the following:

Pre-"R"-exchange:
Bostonian: I had a bowl of chowder at the bar
Texan: I washed the potatoes.

Post-"R"-exchange:
Bostonian: I had a bowl of chowdah at the bah
Texan: I waRshed them pahtateRs.

I believe the 'ah' sound in both American dialects above are imported from the Mexicans who have sold off the majority of their consonants; for example, the 'll' in '-illa', J and g in "Jorge", even the X in Mexico have been pawned for the very marketable 'ah' so favoured by their northern neighbours.

 

[nightingale+therose]

'Arse' is pretty much used all over Britain, although I have heard 'ass' a fair bit as well (mostly in the Midlands and occasionally in Scotland/the far north). Not sure why he uses 'ass' specifically in 'Ganglord' though.

No self respecting Scot would miss the opportunity to roll their 'R's'... so i think we put the 'R' in Arrrrrsehole.

PS: this is a fine thread CG!

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

I thought this thread was about me

 

[mauve21]

We say arse as it is spelt here in upside down land, not ass,
that's for Americans.

 

[Maurice E]

Is that a particularly northern thing to say "arse"? Or does pretty much everyone say it? Or is it a class thing?

Why would Morrissey say "Get your fat ASS back to the ghetto." during ganglord in his recent tours?

No time to read all responses but 'ass' is an americanism. Brits who are heavily influenced by Amercian culture say 'ass', the rest of us 'arse'. It's not really anything to do with class or regional dialect.
Personally, I cringe when I hear a Brit say 'ass' as I do when they say 'movie' instead of 'film' but I think I'm losing the battle with that one!

 

[not_me_not_I]

Just to be difficult and add another word into the fire - what is up with the pronunciation of Antartica? Why is it often pronounced as an-arc-tica?

Because that is how it is spelled? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctica
The Arctic is the name for the region at the north pole, so the region at the south pole is named the opposite - ie, ant - arctic -a.

(Unless that was a typo and you're questioning the dropping of the "t", in which case I think it's just linguistic drift.)

 

[troubleluvsme]

I thought this thread was about me

awwww...Robby.

CG...this is a great title for a thread.

 

[Mars_Rover]

We say arse as it is spelt here in upside down land, not ass, that's for Americans.

I wonder how/why we Americans evolved into using an "ed" ending for past tense verbs (spelled, learned, etc.) away from the British way of ending with a "t" (spelt, learnt). Probably Webster's influence again...

I love the British way of speaking and spelling except for "I was sat at the table" or "I'm stood here next to..." that just sounds wrong and ungrammatical. Another example, from a BBC article on horse racing: "I was stood at the top of the gallops watching my dad on these horses, and he was going so fast."