robertzombie
Member
lol, hadn't thought of them!
G N' R Chinese Democracy
- Thread starter Jealous Of Youth
- Start date
A
Alcoholic Afternoons
Guest
Okay, then I'm being absurd. Humor me, though. How exactly did they redefine anything? How was it defined before, and how was it different after? What, other than one generally well-regarded album and another decent one or two, psychotherapy, heroin abuse, allegations of anti-gay and racist slurs and VW Jetta commercials, is their legacy? Point me to some sign of their musical significance/importance. Album sales don't do it, unless you want to compare them to Mariah Carey.
D
Dave
Guest
Well, you said they are hair metal. As pointed out above that was just the Welcome To The Jungle video with the hair. That could even be looked at as a conceptual thing since it's what was happening when Axl got to LA. I do agree with Vauxhall that it was a commercial decision to get in under MTV's radar, but Axl was into the conceptual videos later so you could say he was a character in Welcome to the Jungle, in the stage portions. He has long straight hair in other sections of the video I think.
But here's the thing. You are grouping them with hair metal, which I think is incorrect, but it helps make the point. What other hair metal sounded like them? They sounded more along the lines of Aerosmith Rocks, but if Aerosmith had been listening to more Dead Boys and less Yardbirds. The lyrics were a lot different than songs by Poison or the rest of those guys, that were mostly party songs. Looking back it's hard to remember the order things happened but weren't Whitesnake and Bon Jovi pre-Axl? Def Leppard had just about ended their run of success. Motley Crue was influenced by Glam and Punk, but it didn't really show up on the records.
Guns'N'Roses had a great rhythm section like Aerosmith's but Aerosmith by then was using outside writers like Desmond Child and writing songs like "Angel". Axl had the same sort of mentality as Kurt Cobain and I think a lot of the whole grunge thing was as influenced by Axl as by Kurt. Pearl Jam were Guns'N'Roses fans for example. Now I've always thought Pearl Jam was an overblown melodramatic bore, so that's not an endorsement. I'm just saying that they were influential.
Metallica was pretty good back then, Master of Puppets and less so on Justice For All, but Metallica did not have a groove. They really tried hard to get one though and it's probably partly because of Guns'N'Roses. Enter Sandman was pretty funky. The guitars were still riveted into place though and the sound, while distorted, was never raw. Those ESP guitars with the active pickups are never going to sound like a telecaster and a les paul played through Marshalls. GNR was raw, as raw as the Sex Pistols, and funkier. They also wrote some really good songs.
Nirvana was more about the vocals, the melody and a raw guitar, but it was riff rock. It wasn't really jamming and it wasn't that funky.
anyway, this is supposed to be about Axl. Well, I think if we look at the charts or an MTV playlist before Guns'N'Roses came out, and after, we're going to see a big change. Maybe it didn't last because they were too driven by Axl. I was an Aerosmith fan in junior highschool and you could always tell who wrote the songs. If it was a big piano weepy tune it's the singer that wrote it. Guitar players write riffs. So once they got so big and famous and it did in Axl's head he started writing stuff like November Rain. They still had great guitar riffs like Estranged, or Coma. And I like Don't Cry and some of the other songs too. BUt it all got so produced and removed from the source. That's where Nirvana came in.
But people were doing what Nirvana did too. Sonic Youth was just as catchy in some ways and a lot more expansive. And Husker Du had the raw pop song thing down, but they couldn't do it every time. Dinosaur Jr, I actually liked better than Nirvana and thought they were just as catchy, but not as many people like his voice. Kurt had the classic look and a great rock voice, he wrote great riffs, and his music was catchy. He also wrote lyrics that, at first were sort of like somebody took "normal" lyrics and tweaked them. And he did all the "I'm f***ed up" songs, but again, that was being done. This isn't to knock them. I was joking above about his lyrics not meaning anything. I just don't see it as him being significant and Axl not. I think Kurt was more hip and he had cooler friends, he was more tuned in to an artistic point of view, but they're not that different. Kurt denied a lot of things.
examples, Kurt and Courtney met Aerosmith and Kurt was "shy" but Courtney told them that Kurt had been a big fan of them. According to Thurston Moore he was very surprised one night when Kurt was grinning ear to ear so excited and told him "Eddie Van Halen is here. He came back to meet me." But you never would see Kurt wear a Van Halen shirt. It took Weezer to do that. And all those Seattle guys said they loved KISS for some reason, but none of them said they liked Aerosmith.
Axl liked everything. Nine Inch Nails, NWA, Dead Boys, Hanoi Rocks...not everything, but he didn't deny liking something because it wasn't cool to do so. In a way Thurston Moore is responsible for the death of grunge because everyone bowed down to him and his taste and everything had to be hip. It's what ruined Sonic Youth. They made about 5 great albums in a row including at least 2 classics, but then they deciced they were too popular.
I don't know why Axl quit. Maybe he couldn't deal with fame either. But he wanted to be as big as Queen had been at their peak or Elton John, and it wasn't about trying to make things more abrasive and deny that he was a celebrity. They're sort of like two sides of the same coin in that way. I'd say that Axl Rose popularized punk more than Nirvana did though. They really were a punk rock band. And if you listen to Aerosmith Live Bootleg I think that's a punk record too. blaring, distorted disjointed, drug addicts.
Aerosmith had fallen by the wayside and then everything started to be overproduced again, like we were back to Bosti=on and Foreigner all over again and "it ain't nothing, but a good time" and Axl made that stuff seem stupid. so I think he's a great rockstar and they were a great band.
But here's the thing. You are grouping them with hair metal, which I think is incorrect, but it helps make the point. What other hair metal sounded like them? They sounded more along the lines of Aerosmith Rocks, but if Aerosmith had been listening to more Dead Boys and less Yardbirds. The lyrics were a lot different than songs by Poison or the rest of those guys, that were mostly party songs. Looking back it's hard to remember the order things happened but weren't Whitesnake and Bon Jovi pre-Axl? Def Leppard had just about ended their run of success. Motley Crue was influenced by Glam and Punk, but it didn't really show up on the records.
Guns'N'Roses had a great rhythm section like Aerosmith's but Aerosmith by then was using outside writers like Desmond Child and writing songs like "Angel". Axl had the same sort of mentality as Kurt Cobain and I think a lot of the whole grunge thing was as influenced by Axl as by Kurt. Pearl Jam were Guns'N'Roses fans for example. Now I've always thought Pearl Jam was an overblown melodramatic bore, so that's not an endorsement. I'm just saying that they were influential.
Metallica was pretty good back then, Master of Puppets and less so on Justice For All, but Metallica did not have a groove. They really tried hard to get one though and it's probably partly because of Guns'N'Roses. Enter Sandman was pretty funky. The guitars were still riveted into place though and the sound, while distorted, was never raw. Those ESP guitars with the active pickups are never going to sound like a telecaster and a les paul played through Marshalls. GNR was raw, as raw as the Sex Pistols, and funkier. They also wrote some really good songs.
Nirvana was more about the vocals, the melody and a raw guitar, but it was riff rock. It wasn't really jamming and it wasn't that funky.
anyway, this is supposed to be about Axl. Well, I think if we look at the charts or an MTV playlist before Guns'N'Roses came out, and after, we're going to see a big change. Maybe it didn't last because they were too driven by Axl. I was an Aerosmith fan in junior highschool and you could always tell who wrote the songs. If it was a big piano weepy tune it's the singer that wrote it. Guitar players write riffs. So once they got so big and famous and it did in Axl's head he started writing stuff like November Rain. They still had great guitar riffs like Estranged, or Coma. And I like Don't Cry and some of the other songs too. BUt it all got so produced and removed from the source. That's where Nirvana came in.
But people were doing what Nirvana did too. Sonic Youth was just as catchy in some ways and a lot more expansive. And Husker Du had the raw pop song thing down, but they couldn't do it every time. Dinosaur Jr, I actually liked better than Nirvana and thought they were just as catchy, but not as many people like his voice. Kurt had the classic look and a great rock voice, he wrote great riffs, and his music was catchy. He also wrote lyrics that, at first were sort of like somebody took "normal" lyrics and tweaked them. And he did all the "I'm f***ed up" songs, but again, that was being done. This isn't to knock them. I was joking above about his lyrics not meaning anything. I just don't see it as him being significant and Axl not. I think Kurt was more hip and he had cooler friends, he was more tuned in to an artistic point of view, but they're not that different. Kurt denied a lot of things.
examples, Kurt and Courtney met Aerosmith and Kurt was "shy" but Courtney told them that Kurt had been a big fan of them. According to Thurston Moore he was very surprised one night when Kurt was grinning ear to ear so excited and told him "Eddie Van Halen is here. He came back to meet me." But you never would see Kurt wear a Van Halen shirt. It took Weezer to do that. And all those Seattle guys said they loved KISS for some reason, but none of them said they liked Aerosmith.
Axl liked everything. Nine Inch Nails, NWA, Dead Boys, Hanoi Rocks...not everything, but he didn't deny liking something because it wasn't cool to do so. In a way Thurston Moore is responsible for the death of grunge because everyone bowed down to him and his taste and everything had to be hip. It's what ruined Sonic Youth. They made about 5 great albums in a row including at least 2 classics, but then they deciced they were too popular.
I don't know why Axl quit. Maybe he couldn't deal with fame either. But he wanted to be as big as Queen had been at their peak or Elton John, and it wasn't about trying to make things more abrasive and deny that he was a celebrity. They're sort of like two sides of the same coin in that way. I'd say that Axl Rose popularized punk more than Nirvana did though. They really were a punk rock band. And if you listen to Aerosmith Live Bootleg I think that's a punk record too. blaring, distorted disjointed, drug addicts.
Aerosmith had fallen by the wayside and then everything started to be overproduced again, like we were back to Bosti=on and Foreigner all over again and "it ain't nothing, but a good time" and Axl made that stuff seem stupid. so I think he's a great rockstar and they were a great band.
A
Alcoholic Afternoons
Guest
It's a valid point about Axl's hair only being like that in the first video, but they pretty much always looked to me like they were outfitted by a corporate marketing department.
I wasn't entirely grouping them with the other hair/makeup bands of that era, and I do think they were a cut above those bands. Paradise City was great, notwithstanding the "where the grass is green and the girls are pretty" God-awful lyric. They weren't as good as "classic" Aerosmith, but as good as Aerosmith has been late-80's and thereafter. Also, the other hair bands didn't seem to carry the pretentions of GNR. Poison and Warrant, for example, were just stupid party bands. GNR were better than them, but if Aerosmith was a poor man's Led Zeppelin, then GNR was a poor man's combination of Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin.
The reference to Metallica is a good one, because they're a band that I think had some influence. They pretty much popularized speed metal through Kill 'Em All and Ride the Lightning. By the time GNR came around they were getting overblown and may have been influenced by GNR in that regard. Nirvana may have had some predecessors in what they were doing, but GNR wasn't exactly breaking new ground either.
I'm not sure I buy that Kurt was super image conscious and would deny liking something and Axl was just baring his soul come what may. Kurt was definitely into being "punk," apparently to the extent of insisting that they physically carry their equipment around, to Courtney Love's annoyance. Axl's apparent desire to be like Queen and Elton John may explain why he got so overblown, but he also gave every indication he was into that "megastar" image, which isn't exactly punk. (I'm not saying being "punk" is necessarily something to which to aspire, because it's often not.) I don't think it was about "denying" he was a celebrity, but I think Axl embraced and sought the celebrity and Kurt didn't. As an analogy, Matt Damon said that he had always wanted to be an actor, whereas his friend Ben Affleck always wanted to be a movie star. In this situation (and no other), Kurt would be Matt Damon and Axl would be Ben Affleck. In short, I think Kurt was about the music and Axl was about the grandeur.
I don't know who popularized what in terms of punk, but we may be using different definitions of that term. I wouldn't consider Aerosmith's Live Bootleg to be punk at all. It's just good old blues-oriented rock & roll, and one of my all-time favorite records. I don't think it's punk, though. When I think of punk/rock mixes I usually think of Nirvana and old Iron Maiden. I don't think of stadium rock with long guitar solos.
Oh, and don't say bad things about Boston.
I wasn't entirely grouping them with the other hair/makeup bands of that era, and I do think they were a cut above those bands. Paradise City was great, notwithstanding the "where the grass is green and the girls are pretty" God-awful lyric. They weren't as good as "classic" Aerosmith, but as good as Aerosmith has been late-80's and thereafter. Also, the other hair bands didn't seem to carry the pretentions of GNR. Poison and Warrant, for example, were just stupid party bands. GNR were better than them, but if Aerosmith was a poor man's Led Zeppelin, then GNR was a poor man's combination of Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin.
The reference to Metallica is a good one, because they're a band that I think had some influence. They pretty much popularized speed metal through Kill 'Em All and Ride the Lightning. By the time GNR came around they were getting overblown and may have been influenced by GNR in that regard. Nirvana may have had some predecessors in what they were doing, but GNR wasn't exactly breaking new ground either.
I'm not sure I buy that Kurt was super image conscious and would deny liking something and Axl was just baring his soul come what may. Kurt was definitely into being "punk," apparently to the extent of insisting that they physically carry their equipment around, to Courtney Love's annoyance. Axl's apparent desire to be like Queen and Elton John may explain why he got so overblown, but he also gave every indication he was into that "megastar" image, which isn't exactly punk. (I'm not saying being "punk" is necessarily something to which to aspire, because it's often not.) I don't think it was about "denying" he was a celebrity, but I think Axl embraced and sought the celebrity and Kurt didn't. As an analogy, Matt Damon said that he had always wanted to be an actor, whereas his friend Ben Affleck always wanted to be a movie star. In this situation (and no other), Kurt would be Matt Damon and Axl would be Ben Affleck. In short, I think Kurt was about the music and Axl was about the grandeur.
I don't know who popularized what in terms of punk, but we may be using different definitions of that term. I wouldn't consider Aerosmith's Live Bootleg to be punk at all. It's just good old blues-oriented rock & roll, and one of my all-time favorite records. I don't think it's punk, though. When I think of punk/rock mixes I usually think of Nirvana and old Iron Maiden. I don't think of stadium rock with long guitar solos.
Oh, and don't say bad things about Boston.
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Vauxhall95
I Know It's Over...
First off, thanks for the well thought out reply. I think it's great to have a debate which does not succumb to name calling. Afterall, music is subjective. For me, GNR was the best hard rock band of their generation. Keep in mind they really only released two albums: AFD and UYI. The impact they made on rock from '87-'93 is pretty undeniable. I think Nirvana and grunge came along and made GNR look staid. This among other factors were the reason for the demise of GNR. Axl wanted to move the band away from their traditional rock roots, Izzy who helped write much of early material was gone, and Slash's material was rejected by Axl. They were mega stars at this point and the fame, money, and ego essentially killed GNR.
I agree Axl enjoyed the grandeur, but he earned it, didn't he? GNR played shows that sometimes topped out a three and a half hours! They could turn a coliseum into a club. Axl has often spoken about the fact that one reason Izzy left the band is that the audience didn't always get the material. In other words, there would be fist fights in the crowd during a ballad. This upset Axl, but not to the point Kurt seemed to have taken it. The idea that the people who once ridiculed the likes of Kurt were now buying Nirvana records was inconceivable. He thought those same fans were really GNR fans (and other rock bands) and Nirvana was something different. Nirvana turned down the opportunity to tour with Guns and Metallica forcing them to opt for Faith No More as the opening act. I guess fame can be a real headtrip.
Axl seems to have made peace with his demons. It is documented Axl was beaten by his step-father who also molested his sister. Additionally, his biologically father molested him. These aren't excuses for his behaviour, but I think it explains the anger he demonstrated in the early years of GNR. I haven't heard an "Axl Rant" in quite a long time. He even jokes on stage in a funny voice, "Why isn't Axl ranting?"
The new GNR material sounds incredible. Axl has found a new sound that is fresh, rocking, and contemporary. If you want a link to the new songs I'd be happy to provide them. Have a listen, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. It will also want you to have Morrissey bring some new blood into the line up if he indeed wants to make a "rock" record. The players in the new GNR sound very, very good.
P.S. The real irony is Morrissey swears more on his records than Axl does in his new material!
Vaux
I agree Axl enjoyed the grandeur, but he earned it, didn't he? GNR played shows that sometimes topped out a three and a half hours! They could turn a coliseum into a club. Axl has often spoken about the fact that one reason Izzy left the band is that the audience didn't always get the material. In other words, there would be fist fights in the crowd during a ballad. This upset Axl, but not to the point Kurt seemed to have taken it. The idea that the people who once ridiculed the likes of Kurt were now buying Nirvana records was inconceivable. He thought those same fans were really GNR fans (and other rock bands) and Nirvana was something different. Nirvana turned down the opportunity to tour with Guns and Metallica forcing them to opt for Faith No More as the opening act. I guess fame can be a real headtrip.
Axl seems to have made peace with his demons. It is documented Axl was beaten by his step-father who also molested his sister. Additionally, his biologically father molested him. These aren't excuses for his behaviour, but I think it explains the anger he demonstrated in the early years of GNR. I haven't heard an "Axl Rant" in quite a long time. He even jokes on stage in a funny voice, "Why isn't Axl ranting?"
The new GNR material sounds incredible. Axl has found a new sound that is fresh, rocking, and contemporary. If you want a link to the new songs I'd be happy to provide them. Have a listen, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. It will also want you to have Morrissey bring some new blood into the line up if he indeed wants to make a "rock" record. The players in the new GNR sound very, very good.
P.S. The real irony is Morrissey swears more on his records than Axl does in his new material!
Vaux
It's a valid point about Axl's hair only being like that in the first video, but they pretty much always looked to me like they were outfitted by a corporate marketing department.
I wasn't entirely grouping them with the other hair/makeup bands of that era, and I do think they were a cut above those bands. Paradise City was great, notwithstanding the "where the grass is green and the girls are pretty" God-awful lyric. They weren't as good as "classic" Aerosmith, but as good as Aerosmith has been late-80's and thereafter. Also, the other hair bands didn't seem to carry the pretentions of GNR. Poison and Warrant, for example, were just stupid party bands. GNR were better than them, but if Aerosmith was a poor man's Led Zeppelin, then GNR was a poor man's combination of Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin.
The reference to Metallica is a good one, because they're a band that I think had some influence. They pretty much popularized speed metal through Kill 'Em All and Ride the Lightning. By the time GNR came around they were getting overblown and may have been influenced by GNR in that regard. Nirvana may have had some predecessors in what they were doing, but GNR wasn't exactly breaking new ground either.
I'm not sure I buy that Kurt was super image conscious and would deny liking something and Axl was just baring his soul come what may. Kurt was definitely into being "punk," apparently to the extent of insisting that they physically carry their equipment around, to Courtney Love's annoyance. Axl's apparent desire to be like Queen and Elton John may explain why he got so overblown, but he also gave every indication he was into that "megastar" image, which isn't exactly punk. (I'm not saying being "punk" is necessarily something to which to aspire, because it's often not.) I don't think it was about "denying" he was a celebrity, but I think Axl embraced and sought the celebrity and Kurt didn't. As an analogy, Matt Damon said that he had always wanted to be an actor, whereas his friend Ben Affleck always wanted to be a movie star. In this situation (and no other), Kurt would be Matt Damon and Axl would be Ben Affleck. In short, I think Kurt was about the music and Axl was about the grandeur.
I don't know who popularized what in terms of punk, but we may be using different definitions of that term. I wouldn't consider Aerosmith's Live Bootleg to be punk at all. It's just good old blues-oriented rock & roll, and one of my all-time favorite records. I don't think it's punk, though. When I think of punk/rock mixes I usually think of Nirvana and old Iron Maiden. I don't think of stadium rock with long guitar solos.
Oh, and don't say bad things about Boston.
Buzzetta
WOOOOOOOO!!!!!
(Real interesting reads - yes I read through them - from Dave, Alcholic and Vauxhall)
I believe that GNR were influential for the sole reason that we are on a Morrissey board debating it instead of simply dismisisng it. For someone to open a debate that Alvin and Chipmunks were influential to modern rock... well that person would be dismissed and possibly banned for being perceived as simply trying to rouse some trouble.
Axl Rose has left a legacy. He had and I believe continues to have talent. There is no denying that Slash is one of the best guitarists to hit the stage. There is a reason that they are still spoken about and that is because they have talent. They have left a mark.
Now with the fact that Axl has created new material but not released. My own perception of that is Axl is a reluctant Rock Star and while maybe he did want to be as big as Queen and Elton John he is afraid of a possible failure. Chinese Democracy can never be panned until it is released. Perhaps to Axl he feels that his legacy continues in this never released album and that this is the safest move for him to preserve what he has done. On the flip side to that coin, he feels that no matter what he does with it ... it will never equal Appettite for Destruction or previous work and for that reason... that is why he will never release it. He seems to be one of those people that are never satisfied with what they do because he cannot be satisfied with what he does or has done. He always sees what he could have done.
I actually appreciate GNR's work and based upon the downloads people have so gernerously provided feel that his music is still relevant and listenable.
I believe that GNR were influential for the sole reason that we are on a Morrissey board debating it instead of simply dismisisng it. For someone to open a debate that Alvin and Chipmunks were influential to modern rock... well that person would be dismissed and possibly banned for being perceived as simply trying to rouse some trouble.
Axl Rose has left a legacy. He had and I believe continues to have talent. There is no denying that Slash is one of the best guitarists to hit the stage. There is a reason that they are still spoken about and that is because they have talent. They have left a mark.
Now with the fact that Axl has created new material but not released. My own perception of that is Axl is a reluctant Rock Star and while maybe he did want to be as big as Queen and Elton John he is afraid of a possible failure. Chinese Democracy can never be panned until it is released. Perhaps to Axl he feels that his legacy continues in this never released album and that this is the safest move for him to preserve what he has done. On the flip side to that coin, he feels that no matter what he does with it ... it will never equal Appettite for Destruction or previous work and for that reason... that is why he will never release it. He seems to be one of those people that are never satisfied with what they do because he cannot be satisfied with what he does or has done. He always sees what he could have done.
I actually appreciate GNR's work and based upon the downloads people have so gernerously provided feel that his music is still relevant and listenable.
Vauxhall95
I Know It's Over...
Well, to a large extent I agree, Axl and the current GNR players will always be compared to the original line up and AFD. Like you mentioned though, the new material is very promising. Part of the length of time it has taken to release the new material is the fact that Axl does not want to put a half asses band or album out for the reasons you mentioned. The songs that are out are (IMO) are quite good, and we have been told the "big guns" have been held back for release on the album as Axl doesn't want to tip his hand too much. With roughly 40-50 songs recorded, I think Axl will pick the best tracks for "Chinese Democracy" for the reasons already stated. Will it surpass AFD? I don't think it can for the very reason the record industry has changed so much since 1987. With downloading, legally and illegally, I just don't see how he can match the sales numbers of the debut album (which still sells 192,000 copies a month!). Critically, much like Morrissey, I think there are already some deeply engrained notions and beliefs that will not allow certain publications and reviewers to see the material in an unbiased fashion.
Finally, I think the album will be released and soon. There just aren't any excuses left. If the album is not in store shelves in the next six months, then I believe you're right: Axl never releases it because his current line up of players will desert him. I mean how long can one play AFD and five to six new songs when touring? That has been the set list since 2002. I guess we all need just a little more PATIENCE!
-Vaux
A
Alcoholic Afternoons
Guest
Thanks (and to you as well Buzzetta), it was an interesting discussion. I'd be interested to hear the songs, based on your description. I'll give them a fair shake, particularly if I don't have to watch Axl doing that swaying side-to-side dance thing.
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D
Dave
Guest
Remember the Pauly Shore Show? there was one where he was at a nail parlor showing them the Axl Dance.
also I would really like to see a movie where Matt Damon is Kurt and Ben Affleck is Axl, but should it be more Good Will Hunting or Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back?
there was one where he was at a nail parlor showing them the Axl Dance. also I would really like to see a movie where Matt Damon is Kurt and Ben Affleck is Axl, but should it be more Good Will Hunting or Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back?
A
Alcoholic Afternoons
Guest
Remember the Pauly Shore Show?
also I would really like to see a movie where Matt Damon is Kurt and Ben Affleck is Axl, but should it be more Good Will Hunting or Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back?
Maybe Chasing Amy (can't do fancy linking thing, sorry), with Courtney Love as the object of desire?
Incidentally, today is Ben Affleck's birthday, and he gets 35 candles on his cake today. I can't believe I almost missed celebrating his birthday.
Vauxhall95
I Know It's Over...
"I can't believe I almost missed celebrating his birthday."
Classic! LOL!
-Vaux
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