What Would a 5th Smiths Studio Album Have Been Like?

[Orson Swells]

I also imagine that Marr would begin using more electronic music, as he did on the, er...Electronic records. I wonder what this would have been like alongside Morrissey's vocals? And what of Rourke and Joyce? Would they have still been in the group do we think?

Johnny has actually gone on record as saying he was already planning it and it was going to sound like Scott Walker. Can't remember which magazine he said it in though.

 

[Nikita]

It's harder to follow a guitar player's career than a lead singer's. You have to dig a little deeper. But if you love Johnny's guitar playing, the rewards are great.

Sure, but I was not talking of him playing guitars, but composing songs

Try listening to Electronic

I tried, I think there is nothing to be proud of

TheThe (especially live)

Yes I recognise his sound in some songs, especially Slow emotion replay, but he did not compose anything with them, did he ?

Crowded House (Even A Child), Billy Bragg (Greetings To The New Brunette), Kristy MacColl (Walking Down Madison), The Pretenders (Windows of the World), Talking Heads (Nothing But Flowers)and the last Modest Mouse album.
Johnny had a hand in writing most of that music and his guitar work is brilliant. It was harder for me to get into The Healer's music, but, there are some great blusey, rocking tunes there. I say why not have it all!

I did not listen to Modest Mouse, but, again, wasn't the songs already composed when he joined it - same with The Pretenders or Talking Heads by the way ?

JM made an almost decent career as a "guest star studio player", not like a songwriter

 

[Worm]

I'm not at home at the moment so don't have 'Songs That Saved Your Life' handy, but I'd say it was not actually recorded, but just rehearsed.
My reason for that is the song was not listed in the book, but just discussed in detail around the breaking up of the band. Other demos that were recorded are listed in the book as Mike has copies of them, so would imagine he would also have a copy of this if indeed it had been recorded. But if someone can check the book and confirm that, it would be helpful

Jukebox Jury

I'm in the same boat, not having the book near at hand, but Rogan (or Goddard?) described it as "a faster-paced rock" song so presumably they heard it. I think it was one of the demos Ivor Perry worked on. It probably exists on a cassette at the bottom of a basement somewhere.

 

[Unwitting Observer]

I did not listen to Modest Mouse, but, again, wasn't the songs already composed when he joined it - same with The Pretenders or Talking Heads by the way ?

JM made an almost decent career as a "guest star studio player", not like a songwriter

Did he not help to compose some, if not all, of the newer Modest Mouse songs? I don't know, actually, but I thought so; some songs, especially "Dashboard", sounded to me like they'd been co-written by him..

 

[Worm]

Did he not help to compose some, if not all, of the newer Modest Mouse songs? I don't know, actually, but I thought so; some songs, especially "Dashboard", sounded to me like they'd been co-written by him..

Considering what we know about Johnny's skill in the studio-- his ability to play multiple instruments, willingness to experiment, the new ideas he brings to each project he works on, etc-- it's likely that even songs that don't list him as the songwriter feature a big contribution from him. Descriptions of The Smiths' sessions, especially toward the end, show a man who was practically doing everything. Even granting that he wouldn't join a new band and immediately start barking orders, I'm sure he has done a lot more than show up for a few hours to play rhythm guitar.

 

[Unwitting Observer]

Considering what we know about Johnny's skill in the studio-- his ability to play multiple instruments, willingness to experiment, the new ideas he brings to each project he works on, etc-- it's likely that even songs that don't list him as the songwriter feature a big contribution from him. Descriptions of The Smiths' sessions, especially toward the end, show a man who was practically doing everything. Even granting that he wouldn't join a new band and immediately start barking orders, I'm sure he has done a lot more than show up for a few hours to play rhythm guitar.

Exactly, I agree; that's what I was thinking.
I believe I looked online to see the writing credits (maybe on their site?), and it was credited to simply "Modest Mouse". I didn't dig any deeper, though, but I think what you're saying is probably true...

 

[Nikita]

About Modest Mouse, probably, and as I said, I did not listen to their album, but when it comes to The The, The Pretenders or The Talking Heads, I am far more dubitative

 

[Worm]

About Modest Mouse, probably, and as I said, I did not listen to their album, but when it comes to The The, The Pretenders or The Talking Heads, I am far more dubitative

Even though I think Marr has done more in his post-Smiths days than you seem to think, you make a good point when you say that Marr has not done as much as a songwriter. He and Morrissey's careers have diverged sharply in that way. He's mainly been a session player-- I don't see The Healers as an ambitious act meant to rival The Smiths-- whereas Morrissey pretty much borrowed the same template for The Smiths and continued to use it in his solo career, differences in songwriting notwithstanding.

It's interesting to speculate about why. Morrissey and Marr originally planned to be a songwriting duo working in the background on behalf of other artists. Now, they may have stuck to this plan for all of about six and a half days in 1982 before realizing they had stardom in their blood. Still, I wonder if Marr hasn't gone back to his original plan-- or, put differently, if The Smiths weren't a detour? He portrays himself as a regular guy who likes making music with friends more than the rock and roll life, and that's reflected in his post-Smiths career.

Like I said yesterday: the more you find out about the personalities of the major players, the more you realize how odd and fragile a partnership it was to begin with. The Smiths' five year lifespan starts to look miraculous, the "severed alliance" not so much a tragedy as it was an overdue inevitability.

 

[dothewatusi]

Considering what we know about Johnny's skill in the studio-- his ability to play multiple instruments, willingness to experiment, the new ideas he brings to each project he works on, etc-- it's likely that even songs that don't list him as the songwriter feature a big contribution from him.

We all know that Johnny has a long history of playing with other musicians throughout the years - Liam Gallagher, Kula Shakar, Lisa Germano, Jane Birkin, Electrafixion, Beck, Bert Jansch, Haven, Charlatans, The Cribs. Any influence he's had on them and their songs aren't necessarily reflected in the writing credits. These are some songs officially attributed to Johnny.

Walking Down Madison written for Kirsty MacColl
Concrete Sky co-written with Beth Orton
Even A Child co-written with Neil Finn, Johnny's daughter Sonny sings backup vocals along with other kids
Gravitate To Me co-written with Matt Johnson
The Boy Done Good co-written with Billy Bragg
We Were Dead Before The Ship Even Sank MM group credit
Here's what Johnny had to say about that collaboration, "Isaac contacted me and asked if I'd help Modest Mouse write the new album. I was intrigued and played with the band in Portland a couple of times. We hit it off and wrote three great songs straight away, something clicked, it felt right from the off."

Any honest discussion about Johnny's song writing shouldn't dismiss his collaboration with Bernard Sumner with Electronic, Raise The Pressure and Twisted Tenderness or Johnny Marr and The Healers Boomslang.

You are sleeping. You don't want to believe.

 

[Stoner Kebab]

Johnny has actually gone on record as saying he was already planning it and it was going to sound like Scott Walker. Can't remember which magazine he said it in though.

i love scott walker.

 

[Worm]

Any honest discussion about Johnny's song writing shouldn't dismiss his collaboration with Bernard Sumner with Electronic, Raise The Pressure and Twisted Tenderness or Johnny Marr and The Healers Boomslang.

I certainly wouldn't dismiss Electronic. They were excellent, and their first album remains a stone-cold classic. By which I mean, if Electronic's music on "Electroinc" were a palpable object, and you picked it up, you would be unable not to notice that its temperature was that of a stone left outdoors for a long period of time in a chilly climate.

 

[dothewatusi]

I certainly wouldn't dismiss Electronic.

Believe me, I wasn't referring to you.

Electronic...were excellent, and their first album remains a stone-cold classic.

Stone-cold classic, yeah! My favorite is Twisted Tenderness, a double "stone-cold classic."

By which I mean, if Electronic's music on "Electroinc" were a palpable object, and you picked it up, you would be unable not to notice that its temperature was that of a stone left outdoors for a long period of time in a chilly climate.

Hey, wait a minute! Are you saying that it's emotionless and leaves you cold?!! Why I otta...! Talk about twisted...

 

[Buzzetta]

I'm not at home at the moment so don't have 'Songs That Saved Your Life' handy, but I'd say it was not actually recorded, but just rehearsed.
My reason for that is the song was not listed in the book, but just discussed in detail around the breaking up of the band. Other demos that were recorded are listed in the book as Mike has copies of them, so would imagine he would also have a copy of this if indeed it had been recorded. But if someone can check the book and confirm that, it would be helpful

Jukebox Jury

Many thanks

 

[Worm]

"Bengali In Platforms" was one of two tracks recorded during a two-day session at Power Plant Studios, London, in August 1987. The session took place about one week before "Strangeways Here We Come" was released. Morrissey, Joyce and Rourke were joined by Ivor Perry on guitar. Stephen Street produced.

They didn't get far. One song was an instrumental (a variation on "I Know It's Over", but more upbeat) that Morrissey didn't bother singing over. The other, "Bengali In Platforms", was apparently a two-minute rocker reminiscent of The Clash and similar to Easterhouse's "Whistling In The Dark". Morrissey did record vocals for this one; the lyrics are more abrasive than those eventually used on "Viva Hate".

Everyone knew it wasn't working. Joyce said it wasn't "bad", just "confusing" He felt weird, thinking Marr was going to walk into the studio at any moment. By the second day Morrissey had had enough. He wanted to get rid of Perry so he did the only thing he could do-- he asked Joyce to get rid of Perry, which he did.

I'm leaving out many details. It is surely the ugliest chapter in The Songs That Saved Your Life. But the answer to the question is that, yes, "Bengali In Platforms" was recorded by "The Smiths" in 1987. Presumably it exists on tape somewhere, since Goddard describes the music and lyrics. Either Joyce or Street must have shared the recording with him. Let's hope it never surfaces.

 

[Corrissey]

But the answer to the question is that, yes, "Bengali In Platforms" was recorded by "The Smiths" in 1987.

I did not know that. Thanks, Worm.

 

[Worm]

I did not know that. Thanks, Worm.

Thank Simon Goddard and my ninth grade typing teacher.

 

[Corrissey]

Thank Simon Goddard and my ninth grade typing teacher.

Perhaps I should read the book. You just tell me what I need to know...kthx

Thanks, Mr. Goddard and thanks, 'Mrs. Brandt' (that was my typing teacher, she was ancient). Do they still have typing classes in HS?

 

[Worm]

Do they still have typing classes in HS?

Yes. They're called "English class".

 

[sparacus]

Such an album would have been a classic - with a wider range of musical styles married to some of the lyrics from 'Viva Hate'.