Comment from U2byU2

[byrondeniro]

I read the above with interest in which Larry Mullen said the die hard fans are the worst as you can never please them. I think this is very true especially of Moz fans. After a wonderful night at the Newcastle Arena on Monday folk were still comparing him to his time in The Smiths. Surely twenty years on it's time to accept him on his own. I know it's tired statement but FFS it's time to move on. Having been a fan over twenty years I loved The Smiths but regard it now as the launching platform for the best artist of my life time. It's high time SOME folk stopped living in the 80's. Sorry.........i think.

 

[sarahT]

Bravo. I completely agree with you, I was astounded to hear that some idiot in the audience asked where Johnny Marr was when Morrissey was introducing the band.

 

[youtha]

Absolutely - I loved the Smiths in the 80s but if I wasn't allowed to move on I would still be a gawky teenager worrying about my maths homework! So let the man move on, personally live, I prefer the older Morrissey who is witty, charming and charasmatic to the (admittedly beautiful) shy performer who barely spoke to the audience in the Smiths.

 

[Jones]

What people don't stop to consider is what the Smiths would be like now if they had stayed together. Would they really be better than his current band? Given the personalities involved (problems with substance abuse for all three bandmembers) I very much doubt it.

 

[Worm]

I do agree with that. Morrissey has had a wonderful solo career and he doesn't need to have the legacy of The Smiths hanging over him all the time.

As usual though I will split hairs and say this: living in the past is wrong, but continuing to celebrate The Smiths as something once-in-a-lifetime special isn't such a bad thing in my opinion. It's more a testament to how great The Smiths were than a denigration of Morrissey's solo work.

Of course, that goes out the window when someone in the front row screams "Where's Johnny?" Inappropriate, as second grade teachers like to say. Had I been there I'd have been consumed by fury and, had I been in range, elbows would have flown.

Part of the reason people still go back to The Smiths is because they were so strongly attached to their time and place, even if often in a negative relationship (i.e. they were unlike most 80's bands). Nearly all of Morrissey's solo work could have come out in any of the last two or three decades. For a lot of the older fans, it's rather like there was this massive 10.0 earthquake in the mid-80's and everything since then has been one strong aftershock after another. Again, I'm not condoning sad nostalgia here, just trying to offer an explanation as to why The Smiths still loom so large for many people, including many like me who also love and recognize the greatness of Morrissey's solo work.

And Jones, yes, Marr/Rourke/Joyce would be fine today. New Order were at least equally guilty of substance abuse in the 80s and they turned into...well, rather respectable dad rockers. Rather than waking up to a newspaper article on how Andy Rourke had overdosed, I think we'd probably be treated to a profile in which we find out he's taken up yoga and ceramics. Where I think they'd have disappointed is that after 20 years of releasing songs they would have succumbed to simple statistical laws and finally put out some inferior music, and that might have been unforgivable.

 

[Jones]

New Order were at least equally guilty of substance abuse in the 80s and they turned into...well, rather respectable dad rockers.

That was my point though. At some point the substance abuse would have taken over the music and The Smiths would have become just another load of blokes doing a job in order to keep up their lifestyle. I don't get that impression with Morrissey's current band.

 

[Worm]

That was my point though. At some point the substance abuse would have taken over the music and The Smiths would have become just another load of blokes doing a job in order to keep up their lifestyle. I don't get that impression with Morrissey's current band.

Heh. That's a tough assessment of New Order! I don't really disagree, although they just broke up upon realizing this fact, which speaks to their integrity.

I'm afraid I don't hear anything particularly special about Morrissey's current band. They are very good, and like Boz I'm sure they all have a genuine passion for music. I'm thrilled they're playing with Morrissey. Boz in particular deserves a lot of credit for keeping the music going for the last 15 years. Alain was (is?) a fine player. However, they're hired hands. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not bashing them. But they're hired hands. If they don't seem like just another load of blokes it's because they are 100% absorbed in whatever Morrissey does. As long as Morrissey stays fresh, they'll be too.

 

[DeliciousDemon]

Some people really find it hard to let go of the past. I know a few who still hope he'll all of a sudden forget he has a solo career and tour playing Smiths songs only. I'm not sure I'd call these people "true fans" because they tend to slag his solo career all the time - they're just people stuck in some time limbo hoping someone invents the time machine so that they could go back to being teenagers forever.

I agree with everything Worm said about Smiths and how they would end up to be if they only lasted few years longer. I was devastated when they split but, as any grown up, I learned to move on and appreciate the fact that he picked himself up and continued touring and releasing new things as much as possible. Now I'm at the stage where I play his solo stuff much more than his Smiths stuff and I feel we would be at great loss if his artistical switch didn't come round that time it did.

 

[Worm]

I was devastated when they split but, as any grown up, I learned to move on

I like what you said, demon, because it's very true: aging, moving on, growing up has a lot to do with it. Even now I'm still amazed at how distorted a picture I had of music when I was a teenager and discovering The Smiths and other bands for the first time. In 1987 I thought that The Smiths had lived a pitifully short existence. Their split seemed cruel. How many great albums did they leave unmade? Now, though, I understand that even the greatest bands only make about 3-4 top albums. Honestly, I can't think of a single great rock band that has released more than four truly great albums as The Smiths did.

In fact, while I've had to deal with numerous disappointing songs/albums from Morrissey's career, this perspective I've attained as an elderly shut-in has made me realize how outrageously talented Morrissey really is to have released so many amazing songs in over 20 years in the business. It's almost unheard of. It's crazy. Only a handful of people have done what Morrissey has done. He's up there with the all-time greats when you rank them by the passion, intelligence, and freshness of material over a long period of time versus mere longevity (sorry, Mick and Keith). So I continue to praise The Smiths to the heavens but I no longer lament what might have been. What actually did transpire was sublime.

 

[Jones]

Heh. That's a tough assessment of New Order! I don't really disagree, although they just broke up upon realizing this fact, which speaks to their integrity.

I'm afraid I don't hear anything particularly special about Morrissey's current band. They are very good, and like Boz I'm sure they all have a genuine passion for music. I'm thrilled they're playing with Morrissey. Boz in particular deserves a lot of credit for keeping the music going for the last 15 years. Alain was (is?) a fine player. However, they're hired hands. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not bashing them. But they're hired hands. If they don't seem like just another load of blokes it's because they are 100% absorbed in whatever Morrissey does. As long as Morrissey stays fresh, they'll be too.

I think Morrissey's current band are much less hired hands than Andy or Mike were. Just the fact that they all contribute to the songwriting tells me that. From stories I hear about Andy and Mike I am much less convinced of their commitment to music for it's own sake. What have they done musically since? Do you see them hanging out in pubs and playing music just for the love of it? They seemed to just revel in the lifestyle. Now maybe they could have got their act together like Gary has done, but I think it's more likely they'd have brought the band down with them.

All I'm saying is I'm pretty convinced if the Smiths had stayed together until now I don't think Morrissey as an artist would have the level of respect he currently enjoys.

 

[AHappyRocket]

I've often wondered just what would happen if The Smiths announced that they were re-forming.....I would DEFINITELY go and see them, probably more than once, DEFINITELY buy the album, if they made one, but what would be the point? Meat is Murder is going to be hard to top, isn't it?

A tour without an album would be their best bet - he seems more relaxed playing Smiths songs nowadays, and why not, they stand the test of time both live and on the albums.

I recently was in a discussion on "Which band would create the biggest stir if they were to reform the original line-up" and we agreed to agree on The Smiths, Pink Floyd and Genesis. I listen to The Smiths all the time, and NEVER find myself skipping tracks or playing the Singles CD - they are unique and I for one would love to see a reunion.

One day the world WILL listen

 

[Worm]

What, you don't think Freebass is going straight into the charts at #1???

All I'm saying is I'm pretty convinced if the Smiths had stayed together until now I don't think Morrissey as an artist would have the level of respect he currently enjoys.

I think exactly what's happened posthumously would have happened anyway-- respect for The Smiths would have dipped and then, right around 2002 or thereabouts, there would've been a sudden Smiths revival and they'd be relevant again. But you may be right. Like I said, I agree with you to one extent: they would have tarnished themselves somehow, some way. It's inevitable.

Morrissey has eluded that fate because it's just him now. It's all about him. And because he is indestructibly himself, he commands respect in ways that aren't necessarily tied in with his art. Everything about his career starts and ends with him. His record company setbacks have hurt, but they've established the idea in people's minds that he calls all the shots. He can walk away whenever he wants. Not even a manager can sway him. Very cleverly he's let people understand his true relationship to the industry: on the one hand he's the eternal outsider, on the other hand, for that very reason, no one tells him what to do.

Everyone is so aware now of how records are created and sold. The industry has become transparent. When we think about the artists we admire, we already know so much about how they work on the most basic levels. It's like with film directors, you know that even the top directors still make compromises to studios for the most part. A few stand out, like Woody Allen, who doesn't even show the script for each movie to his financial backers. They just hand him the money because they know it's a good, solid (if modest) investment. Others, like (say) Bryan Singer with the recent "Superman", appear to be gifted individuals who are trapped in a larger machine. You know some of Singer's personality is in the movie, but a lot of it is dictated by suits in corporate offices. I'll bet most people who knew Singer's work watched "Superman" almost involuntarily making little mental notes about scenes that seemed like his, and scenes that had other fingerprints on them. It's almost second nature.

Indie music had the effect of making people aware of how records are made and how the industry works. It's part of Joy Division's legend that they folded the seven-inch sleeves for their first record at home and drove it around to the shops in a van. I doubt Elvis's fans knew how he distributed the records. The resulting knowledge means that we're so much more attuned to what an artist goes through to release records. Like the knock on New Order for releasing records to fund their lifestyle: their recent songs are okay, but it's clear the passion isn't there for the most part. But instead of just saying "the passion isn't there", we have specific theories on the real, primarily financial nature of their new albums-- not least because, for example, we know from "Twenty-Four Hour Party People" that they lost a lot of money with Factory and may want to cash in on what they didn't get in the past.

Morrissey has used this widely disseminated knowledge of how the record industry works very cannily. He's let everyone know, in minute detail (e.g. his explanation of Joyce's case on TTY), how his career has unfolded with respect to his colleagues, managers, and record company executives. All the yapping about record companies, lawsuits, etc., have not stained him. Instead, they've sculpted this image of a man who is fiercely, passionately independent, whom "no regime can buy or sell". He simultaneously struts around like a living legend and at the same time has convinced most of us that at the end of the day he's a simple, naive, human being working in a brutally machinelike industry. Even his stubborn intractibilty seems like he takes one stand after another for pure artistic integrity. It's brilliant. And I say all this not because it's false, just that it's an interesting indication of why his fate has not suffered as it might have if he'd stayed in The Smiths: his association with the others would have diluted his personality such that, his career not being totally his own, he would lose his fullest defense, his best defense, which was always his insistence on being himself.

Sorry for the rambling detour.

 

[DeliciousDemon]

To reflect on that statement "True fans are the worst because you can never satisfy them" - it feels as if it's designed for most of us Mozzaists. Whenever he releases a new song there's an endless debate on "Why did he do it this way and not that way" and an even more endless "How dare you critisize Moz!" line of responses, you're really in doubt whether to speak up or stay away and have another cigarette. Same goes for tours "Why is he playing this song and not that one" "Why is he always talking about Julia" - it's really like my country, 8 million people equals 8 million prime ministers, 8 million military strategists and 8 million football coaches, whatever you do, you can never do it right. I'm happy he's experimenting and not trying to please - it's part of the appeal, really - and the fact that he has his musical hits and misses just makes me like him more. As long as we're on the same page about most things I'll continue being a "follower" but if that stops - well, I might frown - but the planet won't suddenly go to pieces, that's for sure.

 

[left out]

There are many different kinds of fans;

Those who have sweet memories from when they were young
Some Complete-ists, collectors who want one of everything produced
Those who want to know everything, in detail
Those who like some, but not all
Those who love the music, foremost
Those who invest personally to a great extent, and cannot stand criticism of their object of devotion
Those who obsess, to avoid facing other, personal, issues
Those who love the man and all he stands for
Those who like this now and will like something else next year
Those who want something different, those who want more of the same

Many (most?) who have a mixture of reasons, some not even mentioned above.
All whose life is enhanced in some way

I was asked “Why do you like Morrissey?” and struggled for an answer for a while.

For many reasons. And of late the music has helped me through some dark days, and that in itself is enough.

 

[faroffplaces]

There are many different kinds of fans;

Those who have sweet memories from when they were young
Some Complete-ists, collectors who want one of everything produced
Those who want to know everything, in detail
Those who like some, but not all
Those who love the music, foremost
Those who invest personally to a great extent, and cannot stand criticism of their object of devotion
Those who obsess, to avoid facing other, personal, issues
Those who love the man and all he stands for
Those who like this now and will like something else next year
Those who want something different, those who want more of the same

Many (most?) who have a mixture of reasons, some not even mentioned above.
All whose life is enhanced in some way

I was asked “Why do you like Morrissey?” and struggled for an answer for a while.

For many reasons. And of late the music has helped me through some dark days, and that in itself is enough.

Superb post, thank you.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

I have always felt that the only reason Morrissey was never able to shake the Smiths was because the broke while they were still at their peak. The band really never experience a failure really. Had they released a few more albums that were not up to par with the rest of the material then they would have been like every other rock band. But they quite with a catalog of songs that nearly every single one was perfect.

Morrissey has been solo a lot longer than the Smiths were together so he as a solo artist has experienced the lows that the Smiths never faced. That is why SOME people claim he was better with the Smiths. But they just don't seem to get that eventually they would have hit a low point as well. The Smiths were together about what, 4 years? Well, when Morrissey started out solo he had a good 4 year run of hits until along came "Kill Uncle".

So really I guess the point of this is every 4 years or so a band/artist hits a low point....the Smiths simply just quit before they hit that. That does NOT make them better than solo Morrissey and I don't think he should be haunted by their legacy. Because really, he has lasted...they didn't. In my eyes who is better is clear.

 

[tender hooligan]

I just wanted to say..i love Larry Mullen. He has innocence, i like that

 

[nightandday]

I read the above with interest in which Larry Mullen said the die hard fans are the worst as you can never please them. I think this is very true especially of Moz fans. After a wonderful night at the Newcastle Arena on Monday folk were still comparing him to his time in The Smiths. Surely twenty years on it's time to accept him on his own. I know it's tired statement but FFS it's time to move on. Having been a fan over twenty years I loved The Smiths but regard it now as the launching platform for the best artist of my life time. It's high time SOME folk stopped living in the 80's. Sorry.........i think.

I don't think it's the die hard fans who complain and compare Moz solo to The Smiths. After his concert at Exit festival, most die-hard fans were very satisfied, while those who were complaining about the setlist ("Why didn't he play more Smiths songs?") were the casual fans and the journalists who don't really seem to know much about him.