Years of Refusal is utterly brilliant

[Anaesthesine]

I remember hating Meat Is Murder the first time I listened to it. I thought the production was AWFUL. I remember calling my friend Ann and whining to her about it: "Why did they decide to produce it themselves? It's utter rubbish!!!" I also thought side 2 was really poor: I hated "Meat Is Murder" and "Barbarism Begins At Home" and it took me awhile to get into "Well I Wonder". "Nowhere Fast" was just okay. And I was annoyed that they included "How Soon Is Now?" on the American version since I already had it as the b-side of "William, It Was Really Nothing" AND on Hatful Of Hollow and I never really liked it that much to begin with. Oh, such torment!!!!

The funny thing is that by the time The Queen Is Dead was released, I was unhappy with the majority of that album because of the "comical" lyrics of most of the songs. I wanted serious, sad lyrics like on Meat Is Murder!

Hmmmm, come to think of it, maybe my first impressions aren't to be trusted...

Exactly right about first impressions.

I LOVED Meat is Murder - the song and the album; that was the moment when I fell. I was a bit of an art punk, and I thought "Morrissey has just out-punked the punks!" That album is still loved by people I know who don't even like Morrissey very much, just because it was such an extremely important (counter)cultural moment.

Like you, I thought it went downhill a bit after that. I know it's sacrilege, but I was kind of over it by The Queen is Dead. Like you, I thought it was just a bit silly, and I found Morrissey to be more than a little annoying. He was still brilliant, but I'd had enough.

Cut to today - I actually like him more now than I did fifteen years ago. I'm more in sync with him than at any time since the early '80s. Quarry knocked me over, and I had words with longtime fans who thought in 2004 that he'd finally lost it and sold out. I thought he'd actually found it again (or he found me, anyway).

To each their own, but I can hear the good in what he's doing now, even though it fails to reach the brilliant heights of his former work. I'm sure I'll look back on these last few years and be grateful for the all these improbably wonderful moments, live and recorded.

 

[Vauxhall95]

It's nice to discuss ponts of view and we don't have to agree on everything, I enjoyed my previous conversation with Vauxhall although we have distinct feelings about YoR.

So here's a suggestion to the posters who keep repeating over and over and over again that they don't like it and its crap and Moz should retire:we got your point but is highly unlikely that by repeating your opinion to death it will become the consensus, so why not open a thread to discuss your favorite albuns?

Just to clarify: yes, IMO YOR is a weak Morrissey album, but it's not "crap," and I would be utterly devastated if he retired.

It's kind of like my frustration with the song rating poll we did on the forum awhile back: every song would get 10's by a segment of the users. Yes, music is subjective but there is a marked and distinctive difference between "Everyday is Like Sunday" and "Sweetie Pie." For some fans, it is as if all it needs is Morrissey's name stamped on the CD, and it immediately becomes brilliant. If "Years of Refusal" is brilliant, than what is "The Queen is Dead?" Brilliant too? I dare say these two albums are not in the same league as one another. I think if one can gain any kind of perspective of all they'd see YOR for what is truly is: better than main stream pop music, but for a Morrissey album - merely average. He merely retraces his steps on YOR. No new lyrical ground is broken, no insight into his psyche.

 

[Vauxhall95]

I think you're getting confused with Kill Uncle. (See The Harsh Truth of the Camera Eye) I do find it funny when I read Morrissey fans saying, as they seem to, that he isn't as good as he used to be...

I remember when The Queen Is Dead came out and fans complained that it contained two already released singles (one over six months old!)
I remember when The World Won't Listen came out and fans complained that they had most of the songs already and three were from The Queen Is Dead.
I remember when Louder Than Bombs came out and fans just complained.
I remember when Strangeways, Here We Come came out and fans complained it wasn't as good as The Queen Is Dead
I remember when Viva Hate came out and fans complained that it wasn't as good as The Smiths.
I remember when Bona Drag came out and fans complained that they had all the songs already.
I remember when Kill Out came out and fans complained that it was too short and lightweight.
I remember when Your Arsenal came out and fans complained that it was too loud and glam rock-orientated.
I remember when Vauxhall and I came out and fans complained that it was too commercial and mainstream.
I remember when Southpaw Grammar came out and fans complained it was too loud and rock-orientated.
I remember when Maladjusted cam out and fans complained it was too bland and musically uninspiring.
I remember when You Are The Quarry came out and fans complained it was too mainstream and Morrissey had sold out.
I remember when Ringleader of the Tormentors came out and fans complained it wasn't as good as You Are The Quarry.
And now, Years of Refusal is (almost) out and - well, you know the rest...
Morrissey fans like to complain! Why can't they just take each release on its individual merits and enjoy it for what it is!?
I think without doubt Years of Refusal will be seen as one of his very best solo albums. Energetic, dynamic, direct. It's not Viva Hate. It's not Kill Uncle. It's not Vauxhall and I. It's Morrissey now. Enjoy him while you can!

I think you'll find a profound difference in the quantity and use of sound effects on YOR versus any previous album. It feels like they utterly permeate the album.

For the record, I loved nearly every album you listed on first listen. The only one that threw me for a loop was "Vauxhall & I." It just didn't take on first listen. But I kept listening (just as I have with YOR), and one day the whole weight of this lyrically masterpiece just hit me, and it has remained my favorite forever. I wish I could say they same will happen with YOR; however I think not. The lyrics are trite and heavy handed.

That being written, to the previous poster (Theo?), I would bet dollars to donuts that there will be a b-side that makes us scratch our heads and wonder: why isn't that on the album?

 

[echobay]

Just giving some love to Years of Refusal, even though I haven't heard it yet.
I know I will love it. Only 32 days left till I hear it!

YOR IS GOING TO ROCK!!!!!!

 

[Vauxhall95]

Just giving some love to Years of Refusal, even though I haven't heard it yet.
I know I will love it. Only 32 days left till I hear it!

YOR IS GOING TO ROCK!!!!!!

Exactly my point: because the album cover has Morrissey on it you'll give it a ten? It doesn't matter, say...what the actual content of the album is? Unbelievable...

 

[Comtesse]

Just to clarify: yes, IMO YOR is a weak Morrissey album, but it's not "crap," and I would be utterly devastated if he retired.

It's kind of like my frustration with the song rating poll we did on the forum awhile back: every song would get 10's by a segment of the users. Yes, music is subjective but there is a marked and distinctive difference between "Everyday is Like Sunday" and "Sweetie Pie." For some fans, it is as if all it needs is Morrissey's name stamped on the CD, and it immediately becomes brilliant. If "Years of Refusal" is brilliant, than what is "The Queen is Dead?" Brilliant too? I dare say these two albums are not in the same league as one another. I think if one can gain any kind of perspective of all they'd see YOR for what is truly is: better than main stream pop music, but for a Morrissey album - merely average. He merely retraces his steps on YOR. No new lyrical ground is broken, no insight into his psyche.

Well said. I agree that when I say something is "poor" it usually means "poor" by Morrissey standards - which are very high indeed. I may rate Years Of Refusal high in comparison with other artists' work, but compared to Morrissey's best work it is pale. And I too question those who give everything Morrissey does a 10. My standard for a 10 is a simple one: did it ever give me a chill down the spine or bring me to tears (well, the good kind, anyway) listening to it? If not, as much as I may like it, it's a 9. There are actually a surprisingly large number of 10s given that stringent criteria!

 

[Orson Swells]

I think you'll find a profound difference in the quantity and use of sound effects on YOR versus any previous album. It feels like they utterly permeate the album.

For the record, I loved nearly every album you listed on first listen. The only one that threw me for a loop was "Vauxhall & I." It just didn't take on first listen. But I kept listening (just as I have with YOR), and one day the whole weight of this lyrically masterpiece just hit me, and it has remained my favorite forever. I wish I could say they same will happen with YOR; however I think not. The lyrics are trite and heavy handed.

That being written, to the previous poster (Theo?), I would bet dollars to donuts that there will be a b-side that makes us scratch our heads and wonder: why isn't that on the album?

No, he's always used sound effects since What Difference... and Suffer Little Children. The effects on Meat Is Murder always sounded (and still do) a little heavy handed to me.

If Vauxhall... didn't hit you on first listen then there's still hope for Years of Refusal. But for some people there does seem to be a cut-off point where they just don't like Moz anymore. Maybe this is yours!?

As a fan of over 20 years, I've still not reached mine and Years... is a great, great Morrissey album.

 

[Vauxhall95]

No, he's always used sound effects since What Difference... and Suffer Little Children. The effects on Meat Is Murder always sounded (and still do) a little heavy handed to me.

If Vauxhall... didn't hit you on first listen then there's still hope for Years of Refusal. But for some people there does seem to be a cut-off point where they just don't like Moz anymore. Maybe this is yours!?

As a fan of over 20 years, I've still not reached mine and Years... is a great, great Morrissey album.

I hope not. I don't want it to be. It sucks because Jarvis, Billy Bragg, and Morrissey are all getting up there in age.

 

[CanYouSeeTheBlackCloud?]

I hope not. I don't want it to be. It sucks because Jarvis, Billy Bragg, and Morrissey are all getting up there in age.

True. I think we are nearing the time when we have to admit that Morrissey is just too old and doesn't really have 'it' anymore. I wonder if he'll add 'Get Off The Stage' to his live set for the upcoming tour...

 

[Maurice E]

Just to clarify: yes, IMO YOR is a weak Morrissey album, but it's not "crap," and I would be utterly devastated if he retired.

It's kind of like my frustration with the song rating poll we did on the forum awhile back: every song would get 10's by a segment of the users. Yes, music is subjective but there is a marked and distinctive difference between "Everyday is Like Sunday" and "Sweetie Pie." For some fans, it is as if all it needs is Morrissey's name stamped on the CD, and it immediately becomes brilliant. If "Years of Refusal" is brilliant, than what is "The Queen is Dead?" Brilliant too? I dare say these two albums are not in the same league as one another. I think if one can gain any kind of perspective of all they'd see YOR for what is truly is: better than main stream pop music, but for a Morrissey album - merely average. He merely retraces his steps on YOR. No new lyrical ground is broken, no insight into his psyche.

but your frustration with that poll is completely misplaced. it simply didn't matter that one or two people gave Sweetie Pie 10/10 because, when the sample size is so great, the wheat really does get separated from the (proverbial) chaff.
you'll see from the results http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?p=772612 that, out of 234 songs, 'Everyday' was voted 2nd best whereas 'Sweetie Pie' came 230th.
we are, on the whole, a pretty objective bunch.
out of all the Ringleader session material, only (a miserable) one single song was deemed worthy of a place in the top 100, so you can't accuse us, in general, of declaring every new Moz composition a work of genius. it simple isn't the case. end of!

 

[Comtesse]

I hope not. I don't want it to be. It sucks because Jarvis, Billy Bragg, and Morrissey are all getting up there in age.

Which means, of course, that WE are getting up there in age too. Sigh. I was watching an old Smiths video the other day - specifically, their TOTP performance of "How Soon Is Now?" where Morrissey machine guns the crowd - and my gf (who is not a fan) was looking over my shoulder and saying how she liked the performance - she thought it was funny and she said, "He was such an icon. Look at that dancing! It's so cool because it's TERRIBLE, but he didn't care, he just went for it. That's awesome." I said, "Yeah, I know... want to see something sad?" Then I showed her the "I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" video and she gasped in horror. Then she showed me her favorite Bauhaus video and talked about how much she loved early Peter Murphy, and then we thought about what he looks like now, and bemoaned how our heroes are all past their physical prime and spiralling downward fast. Which of course means that WE are also spiralling downward fast as well. "One foot in the grave and one foot on an oil slick" as Ab Fab's Eddie would say. I'm just lucky that I was never attractive so I'm not losing my good looks as I age.

I don't think that finding Years Of Refusal sub-par means that you're "over" Morrissey though. I hated Kill Uncle and Southpaw Grammar because they were poor albums, not because I was past liking Morrissey. I still hope that the next album will be a return to form.

 

[Vauxhall95]

but your frustration with that poll is completely misplaced. it simply didn't matter that one or two people gave Sweetie Pie 10/10 because, when the sample size is so great, the wheat really does get separated from the (proverbial) chaff.
you'll see from the results http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?p=772612 that, out of 234 songs, 'Everyday' was voted 2nd best whereas 'Sweetie Pie' came 230th.
we are, on the whole, a pretty objective bunch.
out of all the Ringleader session material, only (a miserable) one single song was deemed worthy of a place in the top 100, so you can't accuse us, in general, of declaring every new Moz composition a work of genius. it simple isn't the case. end of!

You mean there are four songs worse than "Sweetie Pie?"

Still, I was using an extreme example to make a point: too many fail to think critically for themselves. Again, if YOR is brilliant, than what is "The Queen Is Dead?" More brilliant? Why is it so difficult to accept there are varying degrees of quality in Morrissey's work, and heaven forbid it could produce an album which is largely a Morrssey-lite re-write of older better songs? What lyrical new ground is broken on YOR? Besides the very obvious song title, "I'm Okay by Myself" what insights have we gained? Nothing - because this album is filler and fluff (IMO).

 

[Vauxhall95]

I don't think that finding Years Of Refusal sub-par means that you're "over" Morrissey though. I hated Kill Uncle and Southpaw Grammar because they were poor albums, not because I was past liking Morrissey. I still hope that the next album will be a return to form.

I think you're overly critical of yourself. I find I'm the same way. I can easily overlook or forgive the missteps of others but I carry my own like a milestone around my neck.

Anyways, back to Moz! The only album I really actively disliked was "Southpaw Grammar." But even those sessions produced some good tunes: Boy Racer, Reader Meet Author, and of course Nobody Loves Us.

 

[Maurice E]

You mean there are four songs worse than "Sweetie Pie?"

Still, I was using an extreme example to make a point: too many fail to think critically for themselves. Again, if YOR is brilliant, than what is "The Queen Is Dead?" More brilliant? Why is it so difficult to accept there are varying degrees of quality in Morrissey's work, and heaven forbid it could produce an album which is largely a Morrssey-lite re-write of older better songs? What lyrical new ground is broken on YOR? Besides the very obvious song title, "I'm Okay by Myself" what insights have we gained? Nothing - because this album is filler and fluff (IMO).

I don't think this is difficult to accept. Here's the order of the Moz/Smiths albums.
1 The queen is dead
2 Meat is murder
3 The Smiths
4 Vauxhall
5 Strangeways
6 Arsenal
7 Viva
8 Quarry
9 Southpaw
10 ROTT
11 Kill Unc
12 Mala

With most people currently declaring this a strong solo album, it probably ranks around 6-8 on the all-time list i.e. nowhere near The Queen is Dead. There is a clear gulf in quality between solo and Smiths which means we can celebrate an above-average solo album whilst accepting that it doesn't touch the finest Smiths stuff.

 

[AHappyRocket]

I think we can all count ourselves very lucky indeed that the great man is still making music for us - remember, he was finished at 40! Southpaw and Maladjusted together with "the court case" finished him as far as us of a certain age were concerned, and we contented ourselves with his legacy (which for the most part was having been in The Smiths) and going to see him when he came to the UK (Barrowlands, Glasgow 2002 was the pinnacle)

The "Comeback" in 04 was amazing really, since he had done nothing for 10 years, and he proved to himself that he still had a very loyal and substantial fanbase with Quarry,which was decent enough, then foolishly tried our patience with the truly awful ROTT, in the hope of winning some new fans, which was never going to happen on any significant scale.......

I think now what he's done is actually listened to US, and put out an album which he thinks WE will like, and in the main I think he has succeeded. It's true that there is no great lyrical depth or catchy melodies - but where has there ever been since he went solo? He wrote his finest lyrics well before his 30th birthday and hasn't worked with a top class collaborator since.....

I listened to Years of Refusal today, and I'm just about to do so again, and I liked it more than I've liked any Moz album since Your Arsenal - so there you go. There's a lot to be positive about - you just have to ask yourself - what did you expect?

 

[thaxter tewksbury]

Just listened to this and if he decides to go out as reported, he will go out on top.

 

[Vauxhall95]

I don't think this is difficult to accept. Here's the order of the Moz/Smiths albums.
1 The queen is dead
2 Meat is murder
3 The Smiths
4 Vauxhall
5 Strangeways
6 Arsenal
7 Viva
8 Quarry
9 Southpaw
10 ROTT
11 Kill Unc
12 Mala

With most people currently declaring this a strong solo album, it probably ranks around 6-8 on the all-time list i.e. nowhere near The Queen is Dead. There is a clear gulf in quality between solo and Smiths which means we can celebrate an above-average solo album whilst accepting that it doesn't touch the finest Smiths stuff.

Maladjusted was his worst album?! WTF! Southpaw beats out ROTT, Kill Uncle and Maladjusted? That's just wrong! You'd rather be stuck on a deserted island with Southpaw over ROTT or Maladjusted? Never, I'd be frantic to be rescued before the drum intro to "The Operation" started (by the way does it ever end?)!

 

[nugz]

Maladjusted was his worst album?! WTF! Southpaw beats out ROTT, Kill Uncle and Maladjusted? That's just wrong! You'd rather be stuck on a deserted island with Southpaw over ROTT or Maladjusted? Never, I'd be frantic to be rescued before the drum intro to "The Operation" started (by the way does it ever end?)!

yes, it does. and when it does, that song is way better than the majority of the songs on ROTT.

 

[Vauxhall95]

I think we can all count ourselves very lucky indeed that the great man is still making music for us - remember, he was finished at 40! Southpaw and Maladjusted together with "the court case" finished him as far as us of a certain age were concerned, and we contented ourselves with his legacy (which for the most part was having been in The Smiths) and going to see him when he came to the UK (Barrowlands, Glasgow 2002 was the pinnacle)

I think now what he's done is actually listened to US, and put out an album which he thinks WE will like, and in the main I think he has succeeded. It's true that there is no great lyrical depth or catchy melodies - but where has there ever been since he went solo? He wrote his finest lyrics well before his 30th birthday and hasn't worked with a top class collaborator since.....

I listened to Years of Refusal today, and I'm just about to do so again, and I liked it more than I've liked any Moz album since Your Arsenal - so there you go. There's a lot to be positive about - you just have to ask yourself - what did you expect?

You are right of course that we are blessed to have him; however this being a Morrissey fan forum I assumed that was sort of a given. Why else would we be here? No lyrical depth since The Smiths? Viva, Hate, Your Arsenal, Vauxhall and I, Maladjusted + b-sides, You Are The Quarry, and even Ringleaders of the Tormentors had its sparkling moments.

 

[travelcard]

this if off-topic but i really dont understand why people dislike maladjusted so much!! why is that?