Who Is Right And Who is Wrong? I Cannot Say...

But maybe you can.

A conversation recently between 4 Moz fans, had one of them comment on his 'God like genius'.

The response from another of our group was as follows:

'God like Genius unfortunately relates back over 10 years to Vauxhall and You're Arsenal. He hasn't produced a coherently classic album since. I'm afraid he's lost the edge he once had by insisting on bland music (to avoid JMarr/Smiths comparisons allegedly) and his unwillingness to move on with his subject matter of being rejected/homo.

"Moz yer gay, it was an issue in the 80's with aids and all that but we're all past it now, etc...

there is a lot more he could write about that he hasn't for more than enough years.

In a river the colour of lead, immerse the baby's head........
I wear black on the outside, because black as I feel on the inside.........
He said she never really looks at me, and I know because she said so..............
I am moving house, a half life disappears today......
Punctured Bycycle on a hillside desolate........
I crack the whip and you skip but you deserve it, deserve it........

and of course the unfortgettable social comment of:-

.....could only be idiosy lol-loi-de-doi-doi-doi

Sorry his solo stuff has been patchy at best since 1994, woooooaahhhhhhhh wherever you are...................'


Now I know we have objective fans on here and I know we have blind sycophants so I'd be very interested to get people's views on the above comment with regard to the quality of Moz's recorded output.

Comments?
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
"Could only be idioSy indeed........:rolleyes:
 

andy_fozzy

Banned
I think this surely boils down to personal taste and opinion????

'Cos my opinion is that those comments are bollox.

If you don't like anything he's done over the past ten years, then you're gonna say this, aren't you?? (Not you, I mean you as in us, as a whole :D . Whatever.....!!!!)

Anyway, I think it's rubbish.
A good example.
I LOVE and ADORE Redondo Beach.
Most, if not 99% of people on here at least, hate it.

So somebody can critisize it, but I'll defend it.

Do you see what I'm saying??? :)

And another good un.
I'm not over keen on Your Arsenal.
But MANY 'fans' of Mozza are.

Nuff said..........
 

jeanesmith

Junior Member
I think what your friends said is sorta true, but not completely true. He has released some real gems since Vauxhall--not albums, but individual songs. Some of these would be Trouble Loves Me, I Have Forgiven Jesus, and I Just Want to See the Boy Happy, IMO.
 
next time you & your 3 mates are round put on "The Never Played Symphonies" then have the discussion.

love

Grim
 
Last edited:

FlickanMedTörnen

as natural as rain
well.. I only have the very first albums and have only heard the more recent stuff a few times, so far, so I don't really have an opinion.. the recent stuff I have heard I've liked but not loved, but I definitely haven't heard enough to say I generally like the early stuff better. what I do know is that it is a matter of taste and there's really no point in discussing who's right and who's wrong in musical taste.
Lyrically, though... the newer stuff i have heard I have found weaker in terms of lyrics, generally. of course, that's also a matter of taste, but to me the earlier stuff is more.. sharp. something to bite on. which I like.
 
well.. I only have the very first albums and have only heard the more recent stuff a few times, so far, so I don't really have an opinion.. the recent stuff I have heard I've liked but not loved, but I definitely haven't heard enough to say I generally like the early stuff better. what I do know is that it is a matter of taste and there's really no point in discussing who's right and who's wrong in musical taste.
Lyrically, though... the newer stuff i have heard I have found weaker in terms of lyrics, generally. of course, that's also a matter of taste, but to me the earlier stuff is more.. sharp. something to bite on. which I like.

flick, me thinks yer right. :)
 

bobalmighty

*Cornette Face*
I love Redondo Beach too Andy. But I'm a Patti Smith fan so that's probably why.
 

nightandday

New Member
... and his unwillingness to move on with his subject matter of being rejected/homo.

"Moz yer gay, it was an issue in the 80's with aids and all that but we're all past it now, etc...

there is a lot more he could write about that he hasn't for more than enough years.

In a river the colour of lead, immerse the baby's head........
I wear black on the outside, because black as I feel on the inside.........
He said she never really looks at me, and I know because she said so..............
I am moving house, a half life disappears today......
Punctured Bycycle on a hillside desolate........
I crack the whip and you skip but you deserve it, deserve it........

and of course the unfortgettable social comment of:-

.....could only be idiosy lol-loi-de-doi-doi-doi

Sorry his solo stuff has been patchy at best since 1994, woooooaahhhhhhhh wherever you are...................'
My first reaction was: :confused: :confused: but then just :rolleyes:

Comment? The fan in question doesn't seem to know much about Morrissey/The Smiths, that's all. "Being a homo"? "AIDS"?!?! and what's up with the randomly quoted Smiths lyrics? :confused:
 
Last edited:

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Comments?

This fan is an ex-fan. (S)he doesn't know it yet.

I hope this fan realizes all those quoted lyrics referred in almost every case to being a miserable teenager. Does (s)he expect Morrissey to remain a spotty adolescent forever? God. Only Macauley Culkin has been punished more severely for having the temerity to, y'know, grow up.
 

imogen11

Junior Member
I too am not sure what you mean by the random Smiths/Morrissey lyrics...??

Can you explain what you mean by that??

I must say, I do agree that too many of his solo-era musical arrangements are a little bland for my liking *ducks* (please note I said 'too many' and not 'all' - I still love the guy), however I hardly think Morrissey has 'insisted' they be this way!
:)
 
The randomly quoted lyrics are that guy's opinion of when God-like genius was in force. He started losing interest when Moz started singing 'Dagenham, Dagenham' etc.

I think the listener changes as well of course and that's certainly the case with me.

I do think however that it's hard to deny that whatever the strengths or weaknesses of Moz now, the music he chooses to set his melodies to have been blanded out generally speaking, to the point of absolute bleak landscapes. My examples there, while there are many would be Ammunition, The World Is Full, I Like You, I Knew I was Next (is there even music on that?) I'll Never Be and so on.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
I do think however that it's hard to deny that whatever the strengths or weaknesses of Moz now, the music he chooses to set his melodies to have been blanded out generally speaking, to the point of absolute bleak landscapes. My examples there, while there are many would be Ammunition, The World Is Full, I Like You, I Knew I was Next (is there even music on that?) I'll Never Be and so on.

True.
 

Kitty3780

Not right in the head
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, so now here's mine, which is naturally right (in my mind at least)... The earlier work was a lot barer; sharper, more to the point, lyrics, and less orchestration - just straight music. Now we see more musical development, the lyrics are more whimsical at times, and certainly more traditional in terms of love songs (ok, I can't think of anyone else using "explosive kegs" to describe pent up sexual desire, but they do seem to be becoming more mellow generally, but at others still as challenging. It's natural development. No band or artist sounds exactly the same throughout their career - they'd get bored silly. Even Kylie, Pop Princess, has gone through various musical stages (I personally prefered the Confide In Me stage), so it's logical for Morrissey to do the same. Who knows, maybe his next album will be a techno inspired affair... at the end of the day, his voice, that beautiful, distinctive, velvety sound, is what makes the music.

Perhaps the reason people do not like the newer stuff as much is more to do with the fact that they feel the music is out doing the vocals? A lot of people really love "Life Is A Pigsty", still heavily orchestrated, but the music is very complimentary to the vocals and it's not over crowded - big but simple. That makes it have a broader appeal.

It's an argument I can see both sides of... as a classically trained musician myself (no, seriously, I played in orchestras and everything, when not smoking or getting drunk - brass player see, we're always the naughty ones), I appreciate the skill and depth of huge string arrangements on a song, but as someone considering doing a tribute band, I appreciate the simpler stuff as it's easier to learn!

Maybe the gap between releases made it easier for people to think they didn't like the new sound... most real fans recognise the development and appreciate the differences and the similarities.

There is no correct answer on this, so I have to echo the original topic...

"Who is right and who is wrong? I cannot say."

Sorry!
 

herge65

Junior Member
I love Redondo Beach too Andy. But I'm a Patti Smith fan so that's probably why.

I think Morrissey's Redondo Beach is a peach of a song. And I'm a Tom Waits admirer!!!

herge65

PS Who is Patti Smith? :p

PPS I really do love Morrissey's Redondo Beach...honest. Fresh! Surprising!
 
There is no right or wrong answer; music is subjective. Whenever this argument surfaces I point to the poets as examples. For instance, Yeats is considered a genius despite the fact that he veered from vehement left wing political activism to right wing fascism, spent his early life hopelessly in love, troubled and angry and suddenly found happiness and contentment in his later years. His poetry reflects every change, and it doesn't become less inspired because of this, simply more of a challenge to the reader at a given moment in their life. So what might have seemed amazing to me in Yeats' body of work as a sixteen year old, romantic idealist will now be something else, as a twenty three year old (still) romantic cynic. And i find as I get older that I appreciate less immediate poetry, so whereas once Emily Dickinson would have me enthusing all over the shop for her fortune cookie like snippets of clever verse about a single emotion, I now find myself relating to the older, more difficult artist like T.S Eliot who rambles on for ages in unflowery language about people crossing a bridge, but somehow catches the essence of what it means to be alive.
The problem we face being fans of Moz, is that we have a genius who survived. If you think about it, very few geniuses make it through a lifetime. When they do they always face criticism that they've lost their edge, or they've sold out or some such rubbish. What is true is that Morrissey has lost some of the anger and despair he had in his younger years, but then again, he got older; if he hadn't have calmed down, he'd be dead.
What I see in Morrissey is an artist unlike any currently out there; Morrissey still gives the best interviews, the most passionate performances, the strangest yet most inspired lyrics, and is as dedicated to his art as he ever was. Does he become less of a genius because songs like 'Ganglord', 'Friday Mourning', 'The Never Played Symphonies', 'Life Is A Pigsty', 'You Have Killed Me', 'Irish Blood, English Heart' (to name but a few) don't have the teenage Johnny Marr inventing something magical in the background, or aren't underpinned by the bitterness of a broken young man betrayed by a friend and/or obsessed with violence? The recent songs I've mentioned are easily up there with the best of his solo work (in my opinion anyway) and whilst The Smiths will continue to catch my breath with a piece of music (like in 'Girl Afraid') or a lyric (like in 'Handsome Devil') Morrissey is equally able to move me to tears with something he's written (most recently 'I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now') and the band can sometimes match that still glowing genius (in 'America Is Not The World' just sit quietly and listen to him sing "for haven't you me with you now?" and how the music fires that one line straight into you).
It's just a different kind of genius, less raw, less self conscious, but it's still there; for instance what of the myriad interpretations of 'Dear God Please Help Me'? What other artist releases a single with an opening line as intriguing and as unforgettable as "Pasolini is me, Accatone you'll be"? Everything you once loved about him is still there if you're willing to look. There's still so much to interpret and intercept in his lyrics. Granted, the music isn't The Smiths or Stephen Street and it never will be. But Johnny Marr never recaptured that magic either (it was reliant on both of them) and he's still cited as a genius guitarist, so why should Morrissey's status change because he's had more success?
Also, people kept posting on here how much they wanted a new musical direction and when Moz obliges with the fabulous 'Sweetie Pie' it's somehow not good enough. Mainly because I think some people's much longed for 'new musical direction' exists in the form of a 43yr old Rickenbacker playing guitarist called John Maher.
We're so so lucky to still have Morrissey, and granted, some songs on YATQ and ROTT aren't going to set my world on fire, but the majority of his work still does, and even when I can't hear the best poetry in pop in one of his records (I didn't really rate IJWTSTBH), I'll more than settle for that voice, because he sounds like he really, really means it and I, for one, still believe him.
 
Top Bottom