What the h... is wrong with music today?

If you work with the theory that, in the same way that good writers are devoted readers, good bands are made of devoted listeners. But your argument is still subjective. You don't think any of these newer bands are epically long-lasting, but you can identify many from the 60s-80s that are.

Oh, definitely, you're correct to say we can't predict with certainty who's going to last and who won't. I'm not really trying to play that game, exactly, and I've already admitted it's partly, or even mainly, a subjective analysis.

When I spoke of "giants" I was talking about bands that were a cut above and pretty much acknowledged as such at the time. It was easy to see the importance of The Beatles or The Kinks; probably just as easy to see that The Animals or The Monkees would be relegated to the dustbin of history (or compilations of "hits of the decade" samplers, which is the same thing).

In the Eighties I knew who the big names were, at least by '86 or '87. I couldn't have predicted all the twists and turns their careers took, no, but my list would have included artists like The Smiths, U2, R.E.M., Sonic Youth, INXS, The Cure, Depeche Mode, Madonna, New Order, Prince, Michael Jackson, and many others who either got their start in the Eighties or just before, or (as with M.J.) came of age in that decade. (Yes, the list isn't complete; yes, I'm being conservative, erring on the side of the mainstream.) Some artists obviously lacked potential for longevity, but you could still tell they'd released seminal albums: Run-DMC, Beastie Boys, Erik B. & Rakim and Public Enemy come to mind. My oracular talents need not have been perfect (who could have predicted James' breakout with "Gold Mother", or that Information Society would fizzle?). What I'm getting at is that there were a variety of talents, like a mountain range: peaks, valleys, and lots in between. And like a mountain range you could see the peaks very easily.

You simply can't say that about the last decade. The critical lists are comical reading-- they can't agree on anything. Tastes are all over the map. Year-end "best" lists are hilarious in their catholicity. Of the best artists in the Naughties, ask the following:

a) How many started in the late, late 90s or early 00s?

b) How many are playing styles of music that are vividly new, at least in part unlike anything else in previous decades?

c) How many have already flamed out?

d) How do they compare to the "giants" of previous decades?

And e) granting that a few artists pass these tests (started in the 00s, play new styles, haven't flamed out, and compare favorably to "giants" of the past), how many are there? You could count them on one hand, with digits to spare. For example, we could say Arcade Fire passes the litmus test. They're "giants". They belong with the greats. I don't even buy that, I'm just offering them as a case in point, since they're almost universally liked. I'm giving you Arcade Fire. Who else is there? Who?

He asked for "more electronic music" instead. He loves The Chandeliers, and Joy Division.

Your son has great taste. Perhaps we can start a new thread, "What the h... is wrong with kids who grow up listening to Joy Division today?" :guitar:
 
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And e) granting that a few artists pass these tests (started in the 00s, play new styles, haven't flamed out, and compare favorably to "giants" of the past), how many are there? You could count them on one hand, with digits to spare. For example, we could say Arcade Fire passes the litmus test. They're "giants". They belong with the greats. I don't even buy that, I'm just offering them as a case in point, since they're almost universally liked. I'm giving you Arcade Fire. Who else is there? Who?

I don't know. I still have a problem with "new styles." What was spanking new about INXS, or Madonna?

And I still won't know, I don't listen to much new music. Not as much as you do, I think.
 
I don't know. I still have a problem with "new styles." What was spanking new about INXS, or Madonna?

And I still won't know, I don't listen to much new music. Not as much as you do, I think.

Well, that's where you can quibble about my choices, I guess-- INXS might not have been world-beaters but you could tell they were going to be a major rock band that would've been around for a long time but for Michael Hutchence's death. They did put together a bracing mix of Stonesy-rock and postpunk-lite dance music wrapped up in a pretty charismatic package. They weren't 100% original, sure, but put it this way: could you imagine "What You Need" or "Need You Tonight" coming out in the Seventies? Sixties? Fifties? No way. That's why I said new "at least in part": nothing is completely new, yet it can still sound like a progression from the past in some way. "Listen Like Thieves" is in many ways a standard rawk album, and yet it's stamped with its era, too.

The best indie rock album of the 00s, according to many people, was either Radiohead's "Kid A" (a band that started in the early 90s) or Arcade Fire's "Funeral" (a band with achingly obvious debts to postpunk and early U2-era stadium pop). I mean, I'm simplifying for the sake of argument, but I'm pretty sure you can go down the lists and note the same thing-- lists made by professional critics as well as casual fans on websites like this.

As for Madonna, I mean, c'mon. After a few years even Morrissey admitted she had game. :eek:
 
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Your son has great taste. Perhaps we can start a new thread, "What the h... is wrong with kids who grow up listening to Joy Division today?" :guitar:

It's interesting to note that Joy Division seem to have won the "Most Important Band of the Era" contest.

Every single music lover/artsy type/typical adolescent I know who was born from, say, 1985 - 1995 LOVES Joy Division. They are essential on every play list. Their influence continues to be profound.

If you had asked me in the 80s who would end up being the most influential indie band by 2010, I don't think I would have put Joy Division at the top of the list.
 
It's interesting to note that Joy Division seem to have won the "Most Important Band of the Era" contest.

Every single music lover/artsy type/typical adolescent I know who was born from, say, 1985 - 1995 LOVES Joy Division. They are essential on every play list. Their influence continues to be profound.

If you had asked me in the 80s who would end up being the most influential indie band by 2010, I don't think I would have put Joy Division at the top of the list.

I think it has to do with the fact that a lot of Martin Hannett's production techniques showed bands how to build a bridge between traditional rock music and electronics. The one thing our boring contemporary indie rock bands have figured out is that if you hope to sound even remotely relevant you've got to use electronics in some way, shape or form.

In fairness to Joy Division, I think there were some people who were convinced they were the real deal long before it was trendy. As one example, if you think back, U2 and Echo & The Bunnymen, who both got going around 1980, were touted as the "heirs to Joy Division". Clearly they'd left a strong legacy with which to contend, even as far back as 1981. Consider also The Smiths' anti-Factory stance (meaning anti-Joy Divisionish austerity). They were in JD's shadow in 1984.

But yeah, there's certainly a lot of trendy admiration for Joy Division. Sits uneasily in the stomach, it does.

And once again points to the fact that many new artists are finding inspiration in a band that ended 29 years ago. 29 years. Think about it. That's like Nirvana arriving in 1990 gushing about their love of The Miracles. Surely we ought to arch our collective eyebrows?
 
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^^

Oh, absolutely - JD were pioneers in so many ways. We all acknowledged their greatness, and we all danced our asses off.

Still, the fact that kids bring in their demos and they STILL sound like Joy Division basement tapes just blows my mind. Even the outmoded production values are being emulated.

It's amazing how few bands sound like The Smiths. Morrissey, yes (you can tell a Morrissey lover without reading the liner notes). But The Smiths - not so much.

I'm not going to post any more about this, because I'll be repeating myself; Who is the Joy Division of the future? It's not gonna happen.
 
the level of smugness in this thread is stifling!

not to call anyone out, but why is it that bk3000's points are totally valid but mine, of which his mirrors, were mocked 15 pages ago?

why is it okay to admit enjoying Vampire Weekend who are a total ripoff of 1986 Afro-pop Paul Simon anyways while The Quietus praising The Horrors is a journalistic hate crime?

when The Smiths first arrived, how many people thought a million Mexicans would have tattoos of their lyrics? i'm guessing none. you two seem convinced there's some sort of invisible force that physically bars a new(er) act from reaching that mystical godlike status of JD, The Smiths, The Cure or... Paul Simon. no i don't think an act can achieve the status of The Smiths overnight, but neither did The Smiths! to say that every band going will be forgotten, not in 10 years, but in 6 months is ludicrous.


you both project your tastes and values as if they are universal. they're not. just because something struck a chord with you in your formative years doesn't mean the same applies to anyone but you. guess what? some people HATE The Smiths. some people LOVE ZZ Top.
 
the level of smugness in this thread is stifling!

just because something struck a chord with you in your formative years doesn't mean the same applies to anyone but you.


That's it. It's Frank Sinatra fans saying that Elvis is noise.


The idea that the Music Industry (yes, with caps) is necessary for real music to develop is so counter to the reality. The early music industry DID lead to the development of Rock and Roll because recorded music and, soon after, radio, meant that people could hear gospel, folk, and blues, and these developed into country, rockabilly, and rock and roll.

Up until recently you could trace most music back to that. Access to technology changed a lot of that, and some of the industrial and hardcore music that was a reaction to traditional sounds may have opened the door for new sounds. We might be post-traditional because we've all heard music that does not fit the traditional rules, whether it's dance music, experimental, or some offshoot of punk.

I forgot hip hop, and I wonder what John Cage thought of music made with turntables and recordings?

Anyway you didn't need to know music theory ever really to make rock music but the traditional chord changes and sounds were something that we all heard and were familiar with. Now technology has changed the sounds that are available, and a much broader range of sound is considered musical.

I think things balance out and the availability of technology means that, yes there will be a lot more mediocre music available, but it also means that music that connects with people can find its audience without having to fit the record company mold. Bands will not sell as much but they will be more specific to their audience.

There was never any reason for some of the huge bands of the past to sell the number of records they did anyway. It happened precisely because of a lack of alternatives. Bands that everybody liked but that few considered a favorite may have been the most popular. That's mediocrity.

If music is less important now as art and is perceived as an impersonal product, I don't think we should look to Rihanna for the reasons why. What about these guys?

 
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just because something struck a chord with you in your formative years doesn't mean the same applies to anyone but you.


That's it. It's Frank Sinatra fans saying that Elvis is noise.

Oh, come on, the pair of you. Do try to stick to summations that at least aren't explicitly and directly contradicted by the statements they try to summarise. That's so way out of the ballpark that it's actually difficult to believe either of you made a concerted attempt to read and comprehend what has been written.
 
It's Frank Sinatra fans saying that Elvis is noise.

No, this is Elvis fans complaining that the new guys sound like Frank Sinatra.

The idea that the Music Industry (yes, with caps) is necessary for real music to develop is so counter to the reality. The early music industry DID lead to the development of Rock and Roll because recorded music and, soon after, radio, meant that people could hear gospel, folk, and blues, and these developed into country, rockabilly, and rock and roll.

Up until recently you could trace most music back to that. Access to technology changed a lot of that, and some of the industrial and hardcore music that was a reaction to traditional sounds may have opened the door for new sounds. We might be post-traditional because we've all heard music that does not fit the traditional rules, whether it's dance music, experimental, or some offshoot of punk.

Anyway you didn't need to know music theory ever really to make rock music but the traditional chord changes and sounds were something that we all heard and were familiar with. Now technology has changed the sounds that are available, and a much broader range of sound is considered musical.

Er, what some of us have been complaining about is rather the exact opposite. The problem with today's music is not that it's unfamiliar. It would have been nice and exciting if it was, but it isn't - on the contrary, even among some bands considered innovative, the problem is that they seem derivative, repeating stuff that was created ten, twenty, thirty years ago. The blast of strangeness that was Roxy Music in 1972, or Joy Division in 1979, or Ministry in 1989, or Atari Teenage Riot or Aphex Twin in the 90s, where's that today? Technology has changed and a much broader range of sound is available, so why are the supposedly great bands of the age messing about with re-developing the Beach Boys or recording what might have been My Bloody Valentine B-sides?

I think things balance out and the availability of technology means that, yes there will be a lot more mediocre music available, but it also means that music that connects with people can find its audience without having to fit the record company mold. Bands will not sell as much but they will be more specific to their audience.

That rather presupposes that the audience can be simply and unprobematically subdivided into fairly clear-cut clans of defined taste, which really isn't either much more true or much more attractive than "the record company mold" - either from a listening or a creative point of view. I can't imagine anything more dreary than sort of classifying myself as someone who subscribes to a particular, narrowly defined kind of music and then spend my listening time searching out bands who delivers that kind of music. Well, if I can imagine anything more dreary, it'd be bands who shape their music to fit that mold. To be "specific to their audience" equals irrelevance.

There was never any reason for some of the huge bands of the past to sell the number of records they did anyway. It happened precisely because of a lack of alternatives. Bands that everybody liked but that few considered a favorite may have been the most popular. That's mediocrity.

A pointless statement that is impossible to either prove or disprove. Firstly, no one has equated sales with quality or artistic significance. Secondly, the generalisation is inherently meaningless - some great records sell a lot, some don't. Some records that sell a lot are great, some aren't.

If music is less important now as art and is perceived as an impersonal product, I don't think we should look to Rihanna for the reasons why.

Nor do I.

What about these guys?

Could you explain to me how Phil Collins has eluded the International Court of justice all these years? Surely there should be a solid case by now for a Crimes against Humanity charge.

cheers
 
you both project your tastes and values as if they are universal. they're not. just because something struck a chord with you in your formative years doesn't mean the same applies to anyone but you. guess what? some people HATE The Smiths. some people LOVE ZZ Top.

We all filter history through our own lens. However (just anecdotally) I hear history repeating itself. I know a lot of young musicians - they come in from Bushwick and Astoria with their demos and their best friend's band's latest, and what I hear is very derivative. Most of this is dance music, or deep noise - there's a little pop thrown in (mostly club stuff). But it all sounds familiar. I haven't been jolted out of my skin by a new sound that makes me hear music differently. I'm not saying it isn't happening somewhere, just that I'm not hearing it. Everything sounds like Throbbing Gristle, or Joy Division, or Bauhaus. Everyone's iPod is trapped in the 80s.

Yes, lots of people hate The Smiths - a kid was just in the store who nearly spit the name Morrissey (nice to know that he still has that effect on people. :rolleyes:).

I'm still capable of being blown away by what I think of as an original artist - I see dance pieces that thrill me to my bones (until a dance-type tells me that it's derivative of some choreographer I've never heard of :rolleyes:). I still read books whose originality moves me to tears. I want to hear a new sound that combines ideas that I've never thought to put together before. I'm totally open to that. There are bands around these days that thrill me to the core - for which I'm grateful, but are they reimagining where music can go? I don't hear it like that.

The conversation happened here a while ago - why punk can't happen again. This whole thread is one pretty informed dialogue about the march of technology and the forever-splintering nature of pop culture and the lack of personal isolation and the ever-accelerating recycling of old ideas. Sampling was once the death of music, now it's mashups. Music never quite died, but the future sure sounds a lot like the past right now.

It's not smugness you're hearing, it's disappointment, and yearning, and a desire to believe that there are no limits to what musicians (trained or not) can accomplish with words and sound.
 
why is it okay to admit enjoying Vampire Weekend who are a total ripoff of 1986 Afro-pop Paul Simon anyways while The Quietus praising The Horrors is a journalistic hate crime?

...that mystical godlike status of ...Paul Simon. no i don't think an act can achieve the status of The Smiths overnight, but neither did The Smiths!

Uh-oh. I had better go make popcorn.

Paul Simon isn't Paul Simon because of Graceland and The Rhythm of the Saints. He is Paul Simon in spite of them. See, he used to be in this groundbreaking duo called... oh nevermind.

No, this is Elvis fans complaining that the new guys sound like Frank Sinatra.

But the world needs another Frank Sinatra, so I can... oh nevermind.

Er, what some of us have been complaining about is rather the exact opposite. The problem with today's music is not that it's unfamiliar. It would have been nice and exciting if it was, but it isn't - on the contrary, even among some bands considered innovative, the problem is that they seem derivative, repeating stuff that was created ten, twenty, thirty years ago. The blast of strangeness that was Roxy Music in 1972, or Joy Division in 1979, or Ministry in 1989, or Atari Teenage Riot or Aphex Twin in the 90s, where's that today? Technology has changed and a much broader range of sound is available, so why are the supposedly great bands of the age messing about with re-developing the Beach Boys or recording what might have been My Bloody Valentine B-sides?

Maybe it is an issue of perspective. For those of us in our 30s (and beyond) who remember when Joy Division still sounded fresh, the derivative acts sound... derivative. But if you have always heard the knockoffs along with the original, you may not be able to distinguish the difference. Joy Division is a notable example because it took so long for the direct influence to be heard, but my God it's all over now. I've been to hear live bands in whose songs I heard entire basslines lifted directly out of Joy Division songs. These are not garage bands, these are bands with record deals. Just to top it off, they always seem to cover Love Will Tear Us Apart. (Or Ask. Everybody covers Ask.)

I went to hear... I can't even remember their name... oh, She Wants Revenge (I didn't choose that gig, someone else did) and had to laugh. The audience was full of relatively-intelligent looking young people who were really into the music--music that sounded like you took Depeche Mode, Joy Division, and early-to-mid-Cure and mixed them in a blender. Their pastiche is so well-researched that the lead singer affects a British accent while singing. They're from LA. The audience was enthralled. They don't know the difference. I had more fun watching the kids in the audience than listening to the music.

And do I hear the lineage and nuance of influence between various 60s bands? No, not really. I grew up hearing them all mixed together on "oldies" stations.

Could you explain to me how Phil Collins has eluded the International Court of justice all these years? Surely there should be a solid case by now for a Crimes against Humanity charge.

It's the Disney endorsement, he's now immune from everything. Probably even death. ;)

Anesthesine's posts are always so excellent. :)
 
A further point of clarification. (By "further" I mean "repeated for the sixteenth time".)

I am not making the argument about what my opinions are. Inevitably what I have to say is subjective, yes, but I have tried to point out some strange historical developments and, where I could, brought in other people's thoughts on the subject (i.e. professional critics).

We can argue about the details but the following statements are all more or less true as generalizations:

*Innovation in pop music has been stagnant since the late 80s.

*Technology has changed rapidly since the late 80s.

*Related to that, distribution and consumption of music has changed rapidly since the late 80s.

*The economic and political landscape has changed rapidly since the late 80s.

In my view, the burden of proof is on those who say "nothing's changed, it's all the same as it ever was", not on those who say there's something wrong with music today.

The point is, some attempt has been made to look at the question objectively, however flawed it may be and however readily we all admit that in the end taste is subjective. Too much time is being wasted on ad hominem attacks.
 
Do we think it's possible that increased accessibility to individual tracks is actually contributing to blandness and lack of innovation? I've known many people in life who claim, "I love all kinds of music, except [rap, country, opera, or hard rock]" These people don't really love the music, they like it. It's not possible, I think, to truly love all kinds of music. So if a wannabe musician has loaded up his iPod with everything from Joy Division to the Go-Gos, is it even possible for him to innovate? That's like trying to make cookies using not only flour, sugar, and butter, but also potatoes, meat, and roasted red peppers.

By contrast, having to go to great effort to seek out rare favorite music might result in a deeper understanding of it, from which innovation is possible. It's not possible to achieve anything deeply significant with only a wide, but shallow understanding of the fundamentals of your subject. Intense study is necessary.
 
Paul Simon isn't Paul Simon because of Graceland and The Rhythm of the Saints. He is Paul Simon in spite of them. See, he used to be in this groundbreaking duo called... oh nevermind.

Can we please get through a thread without kow-towing to the Smothers Brothers?

I went to hear... I can't even remember their name... oh, She Wants Revenge (I didn't choose that gig, someone else did) and had to laugh. The audience was full of relatively-intelligent looking young people who were really into the music--music that sounded like you took Depeche Mode, Joy Division, and early-to-mid-Cure and mixed them in a blender. Their pastiche is so well-researched that the lead singer affects a British accent while singing. They're from LA. The audience was enthralled. They don't know the difference. I had more fun watching the kids in the audience than listening to the music.

Ironically, the word "revenge" has additional echoes of a certain second-rate New Order knockoff-- Peter Hook's "Revenge". She Wants Revenge thus sounds like a third-level imitation. :)

One thing about your anecdote: you liked the music, right? Nothing you'd drive your car over a rug of newborn kittens to get to, but it wasn't bad, right? Music you enjoyed?

Anyway, I think we need to intsitute the Jack Black test. Jack Black is a fiend for rock and roll, as we all know. Even granting that a lot of it is a character he plays named "Jack Black", the guy seems genuinely, rabidly, incurably passionate about rock and roll. The Jack Black test would simply be, could you imagine an imaginary, ideal, Platonic Jack Black wigging out, playing air guitar, snarling fiercely, and worshipping at the altar of, say, Arcade Fire or The Killers or The xx or She Wants Revenge or Grizzly Bear?

And do I hear the lineage and nuance of influence between various 60s bands? No, not really. I grew up hearing them all mixed together on "oldies" stations.

The word "oldies" is supercharged with scorn, isn't it? Just like the word "hippies". "Oldies stations" were like those Time-Life "Sounds of the Sixties" compilations you'd see on VH1 commercial breaks. I used to hate them passionately, especially the two awful wannabe Cheech & Chong hippies selling box sets out of the back of a plastic VW bus parked in a TV studio in Burbank. There weren't enough bullets in the world for those two idiots.

Now, when I saw those guys, it was the middle-80s, maybe 1987. I was wrinkling my nose at music made about 20 years earlier: The Byrds, for example (a cool band I now have a moderate liking for, by the way). That music was so remote to me it might have been made by little green men on Mars. Inbetween the hippie Sixties and my time the world saw the outbreak of metal, glam rock, disco, punk, post-punk, rap, and that glorious wave of "tuneless Euro fags" who flooded America in the John Hughes Eighties. At the time I was already into The Smiths, who seemed like a reaction against all of that and a new chapter in the history of music. Being confronted with The Byrds, The Who, and Jefferson Airplane felt like picking up Virgil after a year of reading William Burroughs. Remember the notion of "hoary rock dinosaurs"?

I don't think I was unusual in my dislike of the past. It was a silly youthful prejudice, I admit; the fact that later on I would like some of the bands I hated as a snotty teenager isn't the point. The point is that my attitude was pretty common among every generation of music fans. The new was better than the old, and the old felt like another world entirely.

To put that in perspective, then, for a 15-year old kid in 2010, that would mean that, say, Nirvana or Depeche Mode (in "Violator" heyday) would have about the same historical distance as The Byrds once had to me. "Live Aid" would be what Woodstock was for me. The ludicrous fashions of '82 and '83 would be comparable to the disgusting hippie attire of the Sixties. That early-synth sound would ring in the ears like mono acoustic guitars rang in my ears.

I think it's obvious today's 15-year olds don't have that kind of prejudice.

In fact, you could very easily see how today's 15-year olds are more sophisticated. Instead of sneering at the past, they embrace it. They're listening to four or five decades of rock music, without prejudging it, picking and choosing the best of the best. One week they can explore 60s garage bands. The next they can get into early New York hip-hop. The next it can be the vibrant Norwegian black metal scene. The next it's the music of the Harlem Renaissance. All of this can be done almost instantaneously, too, with the magick of downloading.

The question is, what kind of music are these 15-year olds going to make? Can we listen to the music of the last ten or fifteen years and start to get some idea?

What seems to be a possibility-- I'm not saying this is a fact, only a possibility based on a lot of what I've heard-- is that newer artists are making quality music that feels more like the work of museum curators rather than passionate artists. It's not "big" music that's pushing pop into new realms, but rather re-hashing the past, even when there are brilliant results. The xx and Micachu and The Shapes, for example, sound like that to me. Good music, cleverly done, obviously put together with taste, brains, and love of art. And for all that it still sounds trapped in the past, almost a hypnotic enslavement to the history of music.

From this one could re-visit my statement above about the supposed "sophistication" of our imagined 15-year old and perhaps conclude that this "sophistication" is a mistaken interpretation made by an older observer. To me it looks like the knowledge and tastes of the younger generation are much wider and more intelligent than mine. But what does it look like to them? We touched on this idea yesterday: I can put together a playlist of my favorite Morrissey tracks, as Qvist does, because I have listened to and absorbed his entire back catalog in a particular way. The situation is quite different for a listener who has not heard the entire back catalog and, for various reasons, ends up picking out the obvious highlights and lets the rest slide into oblivion. It is extremely hard for us to imagine what it's like to encounter this music from the perspective of someone who grew up with computers, iPods, MP3s, and so on.

It's because I can't see out of their eyes and listen out of their ears that I've tried to analyze the current music scene with as much objectivity as possible. I realize there's no way to 'win' the argument-- in reality, the only way I can be proven right is to wait until 2019. By then, when the "Best of the Decade 2010-2019" lists are full of bands that sound exactly like the "Best of the Decade 2000-2009" bands, it will become obvious that we've got a problem on our hands.

Anesthesine's posts are always so excellent. :)

They certainly are! :)
 
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By contrast, having to go to great effort to seek out rare favorite music might result in a deeper understanding of it, from which innovation is possible. It's not possible to achieve anything deeply significant with only a wide, but shallow understanding of the fundamentals of your subject. Intense study is necessary.

I think this is true.

If only we had a word for cultural phenomena defined by a thin, almost depthless layer of artifice whose self-propelled hybridity of form approached pastiche...

Do we think it's possible that increased accessibility to individual tracks is actually contributing to blandness and lack of innovation? I've known many people in life who claim, "I love all kinds of music, except [rap, country, opera, or hard rock]" These people don't really love the music, they like it. It's not possible, I think, to truly love all kinds of music. So if a wannabe musician has loaded up his iPod with everything from Joy Division to the Go-Gos, is it even possible for him to innovate? That's like trying to make cookies using not only flour, sugar, and butter, but also potatoes, meat, and roasted red peppers.

The emphasis on speed and immediacy as positive and necessary conditions of newer technologies excludes deeper questions of what consitutes the real value of our experiences. In concrete terms, answering your question about increased accessibility to individual tracks: today it is axiomatic that listening to five stellar tracks (a playlist) is much better than listening to the same five stellar tracks sequenced within an 11-song structure (an album). We don't have time in our busy lives; the technology encourages control of the content; and in general we are obsessed with distilling "the best" out of everything.

There's a scene in "Donnie Darko" that I think sums it up nicely. Donnie and Gretchen do their science class presentation about dream-goggles for babies. The idea is that even when they're asleep, or near-asleep, babies' minds can be stimulated by the goggles. The teacher (Noah Wyle) has a retort which ought to be, but no longer really is, obvious: babies need darkness, too. Periods of non-stimulation that in turn make the stimulation of their waking hours more helpful to their development. The negative has a content and a value which are easily lost in our quest for better technologies.
 
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No, this is Elvis fans complaining that the new guys sound like Frank Sinatra.



Er, what some of us have been complaining about is rather the exact opposite. The problem with today's music is not that it's unfamiliar. It would have been nice and exciting if it was, but it isn't - on the contrary, even among some bands considered innovative, the problem is that they seem derivative, repeating stuff that was created ten, twenty, thirty years ago. The blast of strangeness that was Roxy Music in 1972, or Joy Division in 1979, or Ministry in 1989, or Atari Teenage Riot or Aphex Twin in the 90s, where's that today? Technology has changed and a much broader range of sound is available, so why are the supposedly great bands of the age messing about with re-developing the Beach Boys or recording what might have been My Bloody Valentine B-sides?



That rather presupposes that the audience can be simply and unprobematically subdivided into fairly clear-cut clans of defined taste, which really isn't either much more true or much more attractive than "the record company mold" - either from a listening or a creative point of view. I can't imagine anything more dreary than sort of classifying myself as someone who subscribes to a particular, narrowly defined kind of music and then spend my listening time searching out bands who delivers that kind of music. Well, if I can imagine anything more dreary, it'd be bands who shape their music to fit that mold. To be "specific to their audience" equals irrelevance.



A pointless statement that is impossible to either prove or disprove. Firstly, no one has equated sales with quality or artistic significance. Secondly, the generalisation is inherently meaningless - some great records sell a lot, some don't. Some records that sell a lot are great, some aren't.



Nor do I.



Could you explain to me how Phil Collins has eluded the International Court of justice all these years? Surely there should be a solid case by now for a Crimes against Humanity charge.

cheers

I think the point was that Vampire Weekend sounds like Paul Simon or Talking Heads or Peter Gabriel or whatever person that attempted to sound like Fela Kuti you care to name, and that this is not innovative, but that they are being named as an example of where music is at today. Actually they are pretty well hyped, and set to become popular even, and like Grizzly Bear working with Michael Mcdonald, it's not that surprising that they are not that groundbreaking. This happens again and again in pop music. The latest thing is slightly innovative at best, and it goes from being a trend and an underground success to a mainstream success.

It is NOT irrelevant to be more specific to your audience. I didn't mean that the band studies how to create a product for a specific group of people, although this has been going on since the beginning of popular music. I was talking about this type of thing:

“While only a few thousand people bought a Velvet Underground record upon their initial release, almost every single one of them was inspired to start a band”, was the remark on the band ‘The Velvet Underground’ by the famous British musician Brian Eno.


My pointless statement about bands in the past being more well known because there were fewer of them is a response to the idea that reappears in this thread that more choices equals lower quality, or that the good stuff is harder to find, and listening habits change the prospects of true art because people aren't going to give it a chance.

Attention spans are shorter. A recording is not going to get as much time to make an impression. A lot of future classics will probably become well known only years after their release, when the band can't capitalize on their overdue success. Bands used to get three albums to catch on, and now if they can't sell ringtones out of the box, their careers are over. That means that they are going to go for the immediate catchy sound, if they want to hit. That's just how it is.
 
The negative has a content and a value which are easily lost in our quest for better technologies.

This is true. You have to paint, or write, or sing badly on your way to learning how to do them well. Having to plump up the lesser songs on a 10-12-track album, and having to stand behind them on tour, is probably an excellent way of learning how to make better songs. If a band thinks they have 4 stellar songs and figures they can just do an EP, are they missing an opportunity by abandoning the six that needed work?

I think I'm asking: is there value in a quota? You don't see a lot of novellas published these days...


“While only a few thousand people bought a Velvet Underground record upon their initial release, almost every single one of them was inspired to start a band”, was the remark on the band ‘The Velvet Underground’ by the famous British musician Brian Eno.

But Velvet Underground didn't set out to inspire a few thousand people to start bands. They just made the music they wanted to make.


Attention spans are shorter. A recording is not going to get as much time to make an impression. A lot of future classics will probably become well known only years after their release, when the band can't capitalize on their overdue success. Bands used to get three albums to catch on, and now if they can't sell ringtones out of the box, their careers are over. That means that they are going to go for the immediate catchy sound, if they want to hit. That's just how it is.

It may indeed be irreversible, but is it a good thing? McDonalds makes quick, crappy food, because if it doesn't taste good in the first bite, people will stop coming back. It's blatantly obvious that the food really isn't good on any level, and is in fact harmful. Don't you think that quick, catchy, highly accessible "art" is the same way?

Also, connecting to Worm's borrowed point about needed silence: don't ringtones drastically devalue a song? It's not a work of art; it's just a flavor of noise. A "ringback tone," which is a song that's played for you while you wait for someone you're calling to answer, turns music into busywork. This is fundamentally bad.
 
This is true. You have to paint, or write, or sing badly on your way to learning how to do them well. Having to plump up the lesser songs on a 10-12-track album, and having to stand behind them on tour, is probably an excellent way of learning how to make better songs. If a band thinks they have 4 stellar songs and figures they can just do an EP, are they missing an opportunity by abandoning the six that needed work?

Yes, I think you could say that's a problem. I was really getting at it from another angle: the four stellar songs they write will be probably be influenced by the same avoidance of "filler" or "wasted time" in their listening-- years of listening leading up to the moment they pick up a guitar or sit down at a keyboard to write those songs.

The 'negative' applies to other types of art, too. For example, you can have a similar debate about movies. Technology has beefed up to the point where you can have a marvelous experience sitting in your living room watching a movie. You don't even need to spend insane amounts of money to have a big, wide-screen, hi-def television set that plays movies in their original aspect ratio with sound specifically designed for home theater systems. You also have the capacity to build a huge library of movies and we're already seeing services like Netflix, iTunes, and some of the cable companies that offer movie choices that you can download or access almost instantaneously.

On the other hand, you avoid all those 'negatives'. No getting in the car and going to the theater. No finding a sitter if you're a parent. No more sitting in front of a loud popcorn-muncher or behind a smelly old man in a ten-gallon hat. No more gum on the floor. No more $12.50 movie tickets. No more 20-minute previews. Etc. Etc.

Sounds like paradise, right?

Well, there's evidence (cited even by mainstream critics like Roger Ebert) that sitting in a darkened theater, with a mass of people, actually has a psychological effect you can't reproduce at home. You enter a dreamlike state of reverie as you watch the images onscreen. It's the "movie magic" people often talk about. It's lost in home theaters. One can watch David Lean's "Lawrence of Arabia" at home, on Blu-Ray, on a 60" screen, with top of the line speakers, and it will never approach the beauty and majesty of the original print on a giant movie screen. (I mention 'Lawrence' because I saw just such a print on just such a screen, and the difference was profound.)

There's just something about the way we consume music, movies, and written texts that undergoes a change with the newer technologies. It's possible these will be good changes, in the long run; I'll repeat myself by saying that the future is unimaginable, and may enter a totally new phase which will decisively close down the past but re-shuffle it into a grand new type of cultural expression. It gets back to the old question: do we take a positivist perspective on history-- everything new is, by defintion, an improvement on the old?-- or do we try and ascertain the intrinsic value of the new developments as they happen?

But Velvet Underground didn't set out to inspire a few thousand people to start bands. They just made the music they wanted to make.

The Velvet Underground are a good example of a band that took a lot of existing influences and re-molded them into something new. They didn't come from nowhere. Lou Reed talks a lot about how his days writing generic surf-rock tunes ended up re-worked into classic songs like "Heroin"; VU didn't pop out of the ether. Really it was their firm grasp of the various kinds of music being made that allowed them to innovate. Reed was a craftsman, not an art-school poseur. He and the band were able to infuse the music with new ideas and new arrangements because they'd mastered the old, but, crucially, they could see the open spaces of possibility beyond the borders of the existing.

You can argue that there are a few Velvet Undergrounds out there now. We just don't see them. We won't know who they are until ten new bands form and cite them as influences. Then, in retrospect, we look back and say, "Ah! This great band was hiding there all along!"

Trouble is, where are these VUs? Which band today is writing music inspired by some obscure outfit that recorded a few seminal, but ignored, albums back in the early 90s? Which bands are springing up in "secret" patches of fertile soil that nobody guessed existed?

We would know about them. Joy Division cited Iggy Pop and The Velvet Underground. U2 cited Joy Division almost immediately. Same with R.E.M. and stuff like Gang of Four. New Order cited Kraftwerk. The Clash were always transparent about their influences in black music. Nirvana cited the Pixies. Radiohead and Blur cited The Smiths. On and on. What these bands all have in common, viz. their influences, is that they borrowed existing material and added something new to it. They made 90-degree right turns so that the old was reimagined into the new.

Who is releasing music today that builds new innovations on the foundations laid by Pulp, The Strokes, Gorillaz, Beck, Smashing Pumpkins, Offspring, etc?

Nobody is. Instead they're releasing hybrid music and citing Nick Cave, Prince, Bob Marley, Krautrock, Daniel Johnston, Sun Elvis, Shostakovich, Theme From Voltron, and Casio digital watches.

Once again, the theory that everything's happening just like it always did runs into the contrary evidence of the music scene itself.
 
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Nobody is. Instead they're releasing hybrid music and citing Nick Cave, Prince, Bob Marley, Krautrock, Daniel Johnston, Sun Elvis, Shostakovich, Theme From Voltron, and Casio digital watches.


Case in point: The xx's listed influences on their Myspace page:

"Aaliyah to CocoRosie, Rihanna to The Cure, Missy Elliott to Chromatics, The Kills to Ginuwine, Pixies to Mariah Carey and Justin Timberlake to Tracy + the plastics " :)

cheers
 
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