What are peoples views on Vegetarianism, seriously?

[Poco Innocente]

aah! Because I’m sat here eating a delightful chili.

 

[nightandday]

Human animals are omnivorous. We evolved to have longer digestive systems than carnivores (cats for example) yet too short too properly digest most plants--unlike cows. Domesticated farm animals only exist because we raise them for consumption. So, is it better to have at least lived than never to have existed at all? Although I do not morally object to eating meat, I do have a huge problem with the way animals are treated in these corporate factory farms. It is abhorrent.

All animals should be treated humanely during their lifetimes. This is why I claim to be a supporter of animal welfare rather than animal rights. PETA and other groups should channel their energies and resources into passing legislation that would protect farm animals from abuse and neglect. While the act of slaughter is gruesome, it is rather swift compared to the countless hours these animals spend in dirty, cramped quarters. It is these appalling conditions that need to become the focus of our efforts for change.

I agree that the life conditions the animals in corporate factory farms are horrible and that it is even worse than the actual act of slaughter, but have you ever seen a pig being slaughtered? I saw it only on TV, but it's still horrifying. I think that having to watch that would be enough to turn anyone vegetarian, you don't even have to think about the meat industry and corporate farms. If someone raised me and took care of me for years, and then when I grew up took a knife and cut my throat to use me for food....well, let's say I wouldn't feel happy or grateful. BTW, pigs are known to be very intelligent animals, but it seems that since they are 1) big and fat, and 2) thought of as dirty (would it really be impossible for people to train them not to be?), so it's supposed to be OK to slaughter them and eat them, while the same is not OK for pets like dogs and cats.

On the other hand, being a human's pet isn't really that great, either. Short of being eaten, they aren't treated much better than domestic animals who are raised for consumption. The cruelty shown to 'stray dogs' in cities is something that I always found disgusting and pointless. At least with the slaughter of pigs or cows there is the excuse that it's done for food, but why would you kill poor dogs with no reason at all? And the reasons given are always utter crap - they usually say that the stray dogs are "dangerous" to people, which isn't true, I've met many of them and none of them has ever tried to harm me in any way, quite the opposite, they were always very sweet and pet-like. It just seems that some people have an irrational fear/disgust of dogs, which is their own problem.

 

[Bluebirds]

And the reasons given are always utter crap - they usually say that the stray dogs are "dangerous" to people, which isn't true, I've met many of them and none of them has ever tried to harm me in any way, quite the opposite, they were always very sweet and pet-like. It just seems that some people have an irrational fear/disgust of dogs, which is their own problem.[/QUOTE]

And how did the stray dogs greet you when you met a few of them? with a bow or a curtsy? Did they give any details of their next venture?
Sorry.

I've been chased by a pack of 4 stray dogs (is pack the collective noun for dogs?) and they were certainly not sweet and pet-like. I ended up having to swing my sports bag around my head, growling like a dog whilst scarpering to my place of work!!! (Oh hang on the nurse is coming to give me medication. I was let out of the strait-jacket yesterday.) All at 9:30 in the morning. They were rabid-like in their vitriolic hatred of me. (The dogs, not the nurses!) And were snarling and spttting etc etc. A frightening experience.

As for vegetarianism don't listen to the evil capitalist dogs... meat is money, thats why I gave up. Foot and mouth and a burial pile of burning sheep. Hmm no pure country air there. It was horrible..... I don't really miss it either and the older i get the more convinved I am that I will not partake in meat again (its been 5 and a half years now and I'm 'just out of my twenties.'

 

[HIM]

I don't think it is morally right to kill animals for food, or even to steal their eggs or milk.

why is it "wrong"? (i'm not saying it's "right"; simply want you to elaborate.)

I think humans abuse their higher power because they can, and because so many humans are on some kind of sad power trip.

i don't think that people who eat meat do so for any kind of egotistical purpose. this is nonsense.

The people who really anger me are the people who know the truth and have seen the violence and still continue to eat meat. It is either wilful, arogant selfishness or complete madness, one or the other.

perhaps they don't think of the slaughter of animals as "violence". why is it "complete madness" to eat meat? i suspect that most meat eaters would think it wholly rational.

Morrissey has been vegetarian for over thirty years now, does he look in any way frail or sickly? No. I'd venture so far as to say he looks the picture of health.

mr. m. is a very wealthy individual and, as such, he is cushioned from many of the hardships of life. as such, it would be very surprising if he was anything other than "the picture of health".

 

[nightandday]

And how did the stray dogs greet you when you met a few of them? with a bow or a curtsy? Did they give any details of their next venture?
Sorry.

Surprise, surprise, they didn't, and they didn't talk to me either! You are right, they were downright rude! They should all be shot!

Nope, they just wiggled their tails and followed me around looking sad. That used to happen a lot when I was a child, nowadays it doesn't happen that often. But there is a group of dogs who live near my building, and who will sometimes approach you hoping you'll give them something to eat. Sometimes they'll try to rub themselves against you like pets do (it's quite possible that they were pets once - many stray dogs, in my city at least, are former pets that owners threw out because they couldn't afford to feed them. It happened a lot during the 1990s. ) They never barked at me, unlike the guard dogs, nor snarled, nor even looked like they were going to try to bite you. And why would they? If I was to be scared of a dog, it would be from dogs whose owners are training them to bite (particularly pitbulls).

I've seen many stray dogs and not one of them was aggressive to me. It's hard to believe that I was that lucky!! However, there are some people who claim that dogs ALWAYS try to attack them! I used to find that very strange, but there is a very simple explanation: dogs only attack people who are scared of them. Fear produces an adrenaline rise, and the animals feel it and instinctively react to it as a sign of aggression/animosity. Then they attack you because they see you as an enemy. It's hardly their fault, is it?

 

[kingdai]

The Crime of the Century rarely have I seen anyone post so much nonsense!

I eat meat cos I like it, I respect vegetarians but don't want to be one myself, all that talk of 'power trips' 'arrogant selfishness' etc.

50 quid says your only a veggie cos of 'Lord' Morrissey- that shows a complete lack of willpower and independent thinking

 

[Anaesthesine]

I have been a vegetarian for about 17 years now. So many folks here have made such good points that there is not much more to say except:

It does not make you sickly, if you do it right. As a matter of fact, I got through the most grueling medical trials while being a veggie, and I fared better than your average meat-eater.

My vegetarian and vegan friends are amongst the funniest, most sophisticated people I know. Furthermore, there are plenty of meat-worshippin' rednecks who are, to say the least, quite humorless.

Hatfull, you are not alone. I did not hate Morrissey, exactly, but I found him extremely irritating.

Ah, so there are decent "veggie" shoes out there, somewhere - that don't look like the box they came in - tell me more anyone?

Doc Martins make the world's greatest vegetarian boots (imho), there is seldom anything else on my feet.

 

[English Heart]

I was raised veggie, so have never known anything else. Although I have tried meat in my former years to see what it tasted of, and it didn't really taste of anything to me. I think morrissey has said some pretty stupid things for this cause to be honest! He's a good figure head because he's so uncompromising and it gets people attention, but saying you wouldn't even be friends with an omnivore, like he did on Johnathan Ross, is just silly.

 

[CharethCutestory]

but saying you wouldn't even be friends with an omnivore, like he did on Johnathan Ross, is just silly.

..... and possibly explains why he hasn't got any mates...... always moaning about that one isn't he -

"OOooh never had no-one ever"
"Yeah, well maybe you should get yourself down the local butchers, they're stereotypically fat and friendly so you might do ok there".

You can't have it both was Steven. Tsk.

 

[The Crime Of The Century!]

The Crime of the Century rarely have I seen anyone post so much nonsense!

I eat meat cos I like it, I respect vegetarians but don't want to be one myself, all that talk of 'power trips' 'arrogant selfishness' etc.

50 quid says your only a veggie cos of 'Lord' Morrissey- that shows a complete lack of willpower and independent thinking

Kindly do not make assumptions about me. It was my interest in animal rights which got me into Morrissey/The Smiths, not the other way around. Though why I'm having to justify my reasons for doing something to someone who doesn't even know me is anyone's guess.

"I eat meat cos' I like it" is the same crap I always hear from carnivores and roughly translated it means "I am a human being, therefore I consider it my god-given right to behave like a complete and utter shit."

The disregard of animals does stem from arrogance and smug superiority. You are no doubt convinced that humans are the most superior life form on the planet. Well, this may come as quite a shock to you, but there are lots of people out there who find this view deeply hilarious.

And by the way, stop using the same hackneyed cliches that all meat-eaters use, i.e. implying that someone has only become a vegetarian because they are copying someone. It's pathetic and tired. Someone simply wouldn't last if they became a vegetarian because Morrissey did. You might live your life by those kind of pathetic, silly, feeble-minded standards, but I sure as hell don't. If you don't like what I have to say, tough. Not everyone wants to be a nice, obedient, masses-driven little flock-follower.

 

[Poco Innocente]

mr. m. is a very wealthy individual and, as such, he is cushioned from many of the hardships of life. as such, it would be very surprising if he was anything other than "the picture of health".

I think Moz looks pretty shite for his age. Plenty of my friends who are not Moz fans are very surprised when I inform them of his age. Particularly when you consider he has had (most of his) life rather easy.

 

[Sir Alec]

Blah blah blah who cares?


This post was not directed at any particular person

EDIT: Just the people that act like no animals suffer for us to have meat, and the annoying know-it-all type vegetarians (both sides of the spectrum).

 

[CharethCutestory]

I eat meat because I want to get one over on the cows.

Fnck 'em, they're idiots. They don't even know what electricity is.

 

[The Crime Of The Century!]

why is it "wrong"? (i'm not saying it's "right"; simply want you to elaborate.)

Well, for starters, feeding humans cows milk is somewhat strange, when you really think about it. It's meant for cows. It is unnatural, whatever way you look at it. Plus the antibiotics that the cows are given pass into the milk. Mmm, tasty. I don't think it's fair to steal the eggs from the chickens because they bond with them. They consider them offspring, even before they hatch. Anyhow.



i don't think that people who eat meat do so for any kind of egotistical purpose. this is nonsense.

Humans abuse their power over animals. Abuse of power is linked to arrogance.

perhaps they don't think of the slaughter of animals as "violence". why is it "complete madness" to eat meat? i suspect that most meat eaters would think it wholly rational.

Slitting an animals throat isn't violence? Er, okay. What about the hundreds of images/videos captured by undercover animal rights activists which have been obtained? Of slaughterhouse workers smashing turkeys heads against walls, stamping on their heads, kicking them until they die? Photos and videos cannot lie, incidentally. Or a slaughterhouse worker who stands and watches as pregnant sows are cramped into crates so small they cannot move, covered in bleeding, pus-filled sores, whilst their piglets lie in their own excrement and blood, and dead piglets litter the floors of slaughterhouses? Violence? Like slaughterhouse workers who repeatedly kick livestock, hit them with crowbars or any other blunt object which comes to hand? No, you're right, there's no violence. It is okay and perfectly morally acceptable to eat meat. Keep repeating that over and over again until you actually start to believe it. There's no abuse. The animals on your plate die perfectly humane deaths, they don't suffer. Yup, self-denial is the way to go.



mr. m. is a very wealthy individual and, as such, he is cushioned from many of the hardships of life. as such, it would be very surprising if he was anything other than "the picture of health". Irrelevant point to make. I have been a vegetarian whilst unemployed, and whilst earning minimum wage. We all eat food, strangely enough. Morrissey probably eats a lot of vegetables, which are quite cheap. Oddly enough, that's why he calls himself a vegetarian

 

[HIM]

why is it "wrong"? (i'm not saying it's "right"; simply want you to elaborate.)

Well, for starters, feeding humans cows milk is somewhat strange, when you really think about it. It's meant for cows. It is unnatural, whatever way you look at it. Plus the antibiotics that the cows are given pass into the milk. Mmm, tasty. I don't think it's fair to steal the eggs from the chickens because they bond with them. They consider them offspring, even before they hatch. Anyhow.

it isn't "somewhat strange" for humans to drink cows' milk; as far as i can see, it's a fairly common practice.

please define "unnatural".

why is the ingestion of antibiotics not "tasty"?

i don't really care if chickens "bond" with their unhatched eggs. should i? if so, why?

i don't think that people who eat meat do so for any kind of egotistical purpose. this is nonsense.

Humans abuse their power over animals. Abuse of power is linked to arrogance.

define "abuse".

perhaps they don't think of the slaughter of animals as "violence". why is it "complete madness" to eat meat? i suspect that most meat eaters would think it wholly rational.

Slitting an animals throat isn't violence? Er, okay.

no, it isn't. it's the beginning of a pragmatic process of transforming one thing into another (i.e. flesh into meat). moreover, you have not clarified why it is, supposedly "complete madness" to eat meat.

What about the hundreds of images/videos captured by undercover animal rights activists which have been obtained? Of slaughterhouse workers smashing turkeys heads against walls, stamping on their heads, kicking them until they die? Photos and videos cannot lie, incidentally. Or a slaughterhouse worker who stands and watches as pregnant sows are cramped into crates so small they cannot move, covered in bleeding, pus-filled sores, whilst their piglets lie in their own excrement and blood, and dead piglets litter the floors of slaughterhouses? Violence? Like slaughterhouse workers who repeatedly kick livestock, hit them with crowbars or any other blunt object which comes to hand? No, you're right, there's no violence.

the incidents you detail are not necessary to the slaughter of animals; they are a by-product of other factors that could be tackled without ending the practice of animal slaughter, for the purpose of meat production.

It is okay and perfectly morally acceptable to eat meat. Keep repeating that over and over again until you actually start to believe it. There's no abuse. The animals on your plate die perfectly humane deaths, they don't suffer. Yup, self-denial is the way to go..

once again, animal slaughter doesn't necessitate the kind of treatment of animals you detailed above.

mr. m. is a very wealthy individual and, as such, he is cushioned from many of the hardships of life. as such, it would be very surprising if he was anything other than "the picture of health". Irrelevant point to make. I have been a vegetarian whilst unemployed, and whilst earning minimum wage. We all eat food, strangely enough. Morrissey probably eats a lot of vegetables, which are quite cheap. Oddly enough, that's why he calls himself a vegetarian

it's entirely relevant to point out that people who are vegetarian may be healthier than many non-vegetarian people for reasons other than the fact that they are vegetarian. being vegetarian was posited, by another contributor to this thread, as a causative factor in the apparent good health of vegetarians and i suggested that those who do not eat meat are more likely to enjoy a relatively advantaged and healthy "lifestyle" and that it is this, overall, which causes their comparatively better health status. this is simply an impressionistic observation rather than an empirical finding, but i suspect, strongly, that research would support the hypothesis.

 

[Busy Clippers]

I eat meat because I want to get one over on the cows.

Fnck 'em, they're idiots. They don't even know what electricity is.

I'm an avid longtime vegan, but this ^ made me laugh out loud!

For me it's a matter of conscience, a personal decision. I don't want anything to suffer because I exist, but that's my own little trip. And if I choose to rescue lobsters from the death tank at the supermarket, I'm gonna do it for the lobster and not to put on a big show for the other vegans. I applaud anyone who makes the decision to refrain from participating in any process which results in the suffering of others, but only if it's their own choice. You can't drag or bully people into it no matter how passionately you may feel about your beliefs. We can get too attached to the love of our own purity, and it's not about that, is it? I still sometimes wear an old pair of pre-vegetarian era DM's and people hassle me about it all of the time. It reminds me not to get too cocky. And the rest of the time I wear Chucks, which totally rawk.

 

[nightandday]

Well, for starters, feeding humans cows milk is somewhat strange, when you really think about it. It's meant for cows. It is unnatural, whatever way you look at it.

Excuse me, but why is it strange? How do you know that it's meant for cows? Meant by whom?? Cows produce more than enough milk for both their calves and humans. And what does it mean that something is 'unnatural'? Who decides what is 'natural', and what isn't?

Plus the antibiotics that the cows are given pass into the milk. Mmm, tasty.

Thank you for opening my eyes, I never knew that milk tastes do bad... But I'll trust to believe you rather than my own taste buds.

If the argument is that the antibiotics are unhealthy, what about the chemicals that are used to grow the vegetables and fruit that we eat?

I don't think it's fair to steal the eggs from the chickens because they bond with them. They consider them offspring, even before they hatch. Anyhow.

How do you know what chickens think?? I admit I am no expert in chicken psychology - are you one??

And many eggs aren't even fertilized, so they aren't really any more of their offspring than menstrual blood is my 'offspring'.

If these are really the best arguments for veganism you can produce, you're not going to convince many people... not even many of those who don't eat meat, or who care about animal rights.

 

[The Crime Of The Century!]

Excuse me, but why is it strange? How do you know that it's meant for cows? Meant by whom?? Cows produce more than enough milk for both their calves and humans. And what does it mean that something is 'unnatural'? Who decides what is 'natural', and what isn't?


Thank you for opening my eyes, I never knew that milk tastes do bad... But I'll trust to believe you rather than my own taste buds.

If the argument is that the antibiotics are unhealthy, what about the chemicals that are used to grow the vegetables and fruit that we eat?


How do you know what chickens think?? I admit I am no expert in chicken psychology - are you one??

And many eggs aren't even fertilized, so they aren't really any more of their offspring than menstrual blood is my 'offspring'.

If these are really the best arguments for veganism you can produce, you're not going to convince many people... not even many of those who don't eat meat, or who care about animal rights.

My statements are made on the basis of a wealth of animal rights literature I have read, including studies which conclude that chickens do bond with their eggs before they are wrenched away from them. I think your tone reeks of typical carnivore arrogance. I have neither the time nor the need to lay out a thoroughly researched and exhaustive argument here, for something which should be based on moral reasoning and basic common decency anyway. Although if I wanted to, I could quite easily lay out a ten or eleven page argument here, meticulously researched. I now see that there would be no point, though. Many people are too set in their ways to live a more enlightened, open-minded, harm-free way of life. It is an effort for most people to even buy cosmetics or cleaning materials which haven't caused needless suffering to animals. I shall have to accept that most people have pitifully low standards, and that in otherwords, there is none so blind as they who refuse to see.

edit: you'll no doubt come back at me by saying that it is I who sounds arrogant. It only sounds that way because I am in a minority. At least I know when I go to bed at night that some animal hasn't died a painful death in order to make my life more convenient.

 

[The Crime Of The Century!]

it isn't "somewhat strange" for humans to drink cows' milk; as far as i can see, it's a fairly common practice.

please define "unnatural".

why is the ingestion of antibiotics not "tasty"?

i don't really care if chickens "bond" with their unhatched eggs. should i? if so, why?





define "abuse".





no, it isn't. it's the beginning of a pragmatic process of transforming one thing into another (i.e. flesh into meat). moreover, you have not clarified why it is, supposedly "complete madness" to eat meat.






the incidents you detail are not necessary to the slaughter of animals; they are a by-product of other factors that could be tackled without ending the practice of animal slaughter, for the purpose of meat production.





once again, animal slaughter doesn't necessitate the kind of treatment of animals you detailed above.





it's entirely relevant to point out that people who are vegetarian may be healthier than many non-vegetarian people for reasons other than the fact that they are vegetarian. being vegetarian was posited, by another contributor to this thread, as a causative factor in the apparent good health of vegetarians and i suggested that those who do not eat meat are more likely to enjoy a relatively advantaged and healthy "lifestyle" and that it is this, overall, which causes their comparatively better health status. this is simply an impressionistic observation rather than an empirical finding, but i suspect, strongly, that research would support the hypothesis.

I can't believe that two people on this forum have questioned the fact that humans drinking cows milk is strange. It is as strange and innapropriate as giving human breast milk to a dog. Bizarre and inane. It only seems 'normal' because it is common practice, but unfortunately, most humans seem to have lost the capacity to question anything which is common practice, as if everything which is widespread or common practice is therfore normal or natural. These days, receiving botox injections on a lunch break is becoming widespread - that doesn't make it natural, does it? People want to feel comortable with the status quo because questioning our entire Western culture is too challenging/distressing for most people to bear.

 

[nightandday]

My statements are made on the basis of a wealth of animal rights literature I have read, including studies which conclude that chickens do bond with their eggs before they are wrenched away from them. I think your tone reeks of typical carnivore arrogance. I have neither the time nor the need to lay out a thoroughly researched and exhaustive argument here, for something which should be based on moral reasoning and basic common decency anyway. Although if I wanted to, I could quite easily lay out a ten or eleven page argument here, meticulously researched. I now see that there would be no point, though. Many people are too set in their ways to live a more enlightened, open-minded, harm-free way of life. It is an effort for most people to even buy cosmetics of cleaning materials which haven't caused needless suffering to animals. I shall have to accept that most people have pitifully low standards, and that in otherwords, there is none so blind as they who refuse to see.

My favourite part of your post is the statement "I think your tone reeks of typical carnivore arrogance", which is very amusing - I don't know how I managed a 'tone of typical carnivore arrogance', considering the fact that I am not one. But I really hope, if I ever try to explain to anyone why I don't meat, that I will never sound anything like you. The parts I've highlighted in your post are just the most typical of your absurd arrogance and annoying holier-than-thou attitude. You just forgot to say that all the infidels who doth not listen to your word will burn in hell and that only you and the few righteous who have seen the light will be saved...