Unherd article by Alwyn Turner: "How Morrissey Revived the Union Jack" (August 8, 2022)

Here's a nuanced discussion of the Union Jack over the last 30 years.

It starts out focusing on Morrissey's Finsbury Park show but then broadens out into a much more cultural / political analysis of the flag and how it's been used.

Well worth a read, if you like this kind of thing. Sample paragraph:

It wasn’t the Union Jack that irked the hostile sections of the crowd. Their reaction was more to do with long hours of drinking, an impatience to relive their younger days with the Nutty Boys, and a suspicion of a bloke from Manchester wearing a gold-lamé shirt, split to the waist, prancing about in front of images of androgynous-looking skinhead girls. The previous year Morrissey had said his perfect audience would be “skinheads in nail polish”, but there weren’t many of them in Finsbury Park 30 years ago.

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Malarkey

Well-Known Member
Calling the channel/website ‘UnHerd’ kind of gives it away. Only the (alt-)right unironically believe that everyone except themselves are part of a herd (of sheep). Only the (alt-)right will unironically claim that everyone except themselves can’t think for themselves and that they see “THE TRUTH”. The (alt-)right (and certain hippie lefties, I might add) will unironically dismiss science in favor of “free-thinkers” on YouTube.

It's centre right. Quite a few disillusioned left/liberal people write for it. Alwyn is a fairly respected pop culture historian.
 
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Les Tameside

Guest
Calling the channel/website ‘UnHerd’ kind of gives it away. Only the (alt-)right unironically believe that everyone except themselves are part of a herd (of sheep). Only the (alt-)right will unironically claim that everyone except themselves can’t think for themselves and that they see “THE TRUTH”. The (alt-)right (and certain hippie lefties, I might add) will unironically dismiss science in favor of “free-thinkers” on YouTube.
At its usual worst, the far left voice comes with the arrogant belief that the transmission of left-wing ideas escapes the power relations (and so the ‘conditioning’) that all opposition has ‘obviously’ been subjected to—so discourse itself is redundant for them.

The left are often fundamentally despotic, more so than the right in my experience. At least Trump’s ‘issues’ with democracy are psychological rather than ideological.

The far left make Nigel Farage seem exactly like the ‘liberal educator’ Morrissey described him as. And the left’s lofty attitude goes some way to explaining why people such as Boris Johnson can now break down ‘red walls’ with ease.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
2367322_morrisseyflag.jpg


Whenever I hear this story I just think of the time he waved a huge Turkish flag in Istanbul back in 2012. I don't remember him ever being accused of rubbing shoulders with droopy moustachioed gangs, roaming the backstreets of Taksim...
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
At its usual worst, the far left voice comes with the arrogant belief that the transmission of left-wing ideas escapes the power relations (and so the ‘conditioning’) that all opposition has ‘obviously’ been subjected to—so discourse itself is redundant for them.

The left are often fundamentally despotic, more so than the right in my experience. At least Trump’s ‘issues’ with democracy are psychological rather than ideological.

The far left make Nigel Farage seem exactly like the ‘liberal educator’ Morrissey described him as. And the left’s lofty attitude goes some way to explaining why people such as Boris Johnson can now break down ‘red walls’ with ease.

He described George Galloway as a liberal educator in the same sentence & George is far left.
 

Gregor Samsa

I straighten up, and my position is one of hope.
He described George Galloway as a liberal educator in the same sentence & George is far left.
Now, now, don’t spoil their cherry-picking!
 
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Les Tameside

Guest
He described George Galloway as a liberal educator in the same sentence & George is far left.
I’m a George Galloway patron. George pointedly does not call himself ‘left’ anymore. He calls himself ‘a socialist’ and he’s absolutely crystal that he wants nothing to do with the prevalent far left voice.
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
I’m a George Galloway patron. George pointedly does not call himself ‘left’ anymore. He calls himself ‘a socialist’ and he’s absolutely crystal that he wants nothing to do with the prevalent far left voice.

George may have been chasing some Unionist votes lately for propaganda purposes. But he is still far left & it's what he's most known for.
 

Gregor Samsa

I straighten up, and my position is one of hope.
Says the man who believed it to be inconceivable that a key black voice (Chuck D) could’ve been influenced by Morrissey’s art.
I admittedly underestimated Chuck’s interest in (then) semi-obscure English indie singers, yes.
 
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Les Tameside

Guest
George may have been chasing some Unionist votes lately for propaganda purposes. But he is still far left & it's what he's most known for.
He openly says on his MOATS show that he’d take Trump over Biden, and Farage over Starmer.

His point is (admittedly) that the left-right distinction is now less important than a politician’s relationship with an establishment that—on both sides of the pond—is actively operating against the best interests of its own people: a perspective that’s significantly coincidental with Morrissey’s I’d suggest.

Galloway has been vociferously Unionist since the independence debate gained real traction in the 1970s. It’s only his detractors, in Scotland, that are choosing to focus on that now.

He loathes The Guardian and the BBC, and he doesn’t have much time for Labour. He reads The Times occasionally. I gather (though I’ve yet to see it) his film on Kelly is a veritable lesson in the operations of the deep state.
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
He openly says on his MOATS show that he’d take Trump over Biden, and Farage over Starmer.

His point is (admittedly) that the left-right distinction is now less important than a politician’s relationship with an establishment that—on both sides of the pond—is actively operating against the best interests of its own people: a perspective that’s significantly coincidental with Morrissey’s I’d suggest.

Galloway has been vociferously Unionist since the independence debate gained real traction in the 1970s. It’s only his detractors, in Scotland, that are choosing to focus on that now.

He loathes The Guardian and the BBC, and he doesn’t have much time for Labour. He reads The Times occasionally. I gather (though I’ve yet to see it) his film on Kelly is a veritable lesson in the operations of the deep state.

He's working for Russia.

The far left wanting to bring down the West isn't new.
 

MILKISMURDER

Active Member
2367322_morrisseyflag.jpg


Whenever I hear this story I just think of the time he waved a huge Turkish flag in Istanbul back in 2012. I don't remember him ever being accused of rubbing shoulders with droopy moustachioed gangs, roaming the backstreets of Taksim...

To be standing by the flag feeling baneful for the Armenian genocide, murdered journalists and Erdogan’s ongoing war on the Kurds.
 

Oh my

Enough! or Too much
It's hard to explain, and I don't claim to understand it fully, but this quote from George Orwell:

“In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman. If you were an intellectual you sniggered at the Union Jack… It is obvious that this preposterous convention cannot continue. The Bloomsbury highbrow, with his mechanical snigger, is as out-of-date as the cavalry colonel. A modern nation cannot afford either of them. Patriotism and intelligence will have to come together again.” (1941)

...shows that it's been going on a long time. It's that (supposed) divide between "patriotism and intelligence" which fuels the controversy over the flag, here in the UK. Like, if you're educated and smart then you should feel slightly embarrassed about being British (or, more specifically English). Whereas, if you're a less educated prole then you just blindly accept the whole "Rule Britannia", Royal Family etc stuff and you feel proud of it all.

There's also a bit of a political divide, with pro-Brexit voters being more likely to be flag-waving types, and Remain voters being less so. (See also: Conservative voters vs Labour/Lib Dem/Green voters.)

In short: it's complicated!

Thank you, yes, it's weird.... and hard to understand for someone who does not live there.
The use of the flag here is normal for left-wingers, right-wingers, people who stand in the middle and it does not really show a political inclination in most countries all over the earth.
 
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Les Tameside

Guest
He is working for Russia.

And he wants the West to decline.
He’s currently engaged in a significant law suit with Twitter, who said the same thing. He tends to win his lawsuits.

It’s no secret at all that he used to work for Russia TV. But not is it a secret that he’s critiqued the Russian money that’s been coming into the UK for decades—which effectively had tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of British people working for Russia.

It might be noted that Morrissey was accused of treason, c.1989. His name was raised in the House of Commons, no less. And the accusation came with the associated legal protections. It’s the default response, whenever resistance looks like it might become effective.

As an aside, Galloway was the amongst the first to point out Robert Maxwell’s KGB connections. That proved true. Nobody batted an eyelid. Get my drift?
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
He’s currently engaged in a significant law suit with Twitter, who said the same thing. He tends to win his lawsuits.

It’s no secret at all that he used to work for Russia TV. But not is it a secret that he’s critiqued the Russian money that’s been coming into the UK for decades—which effectively had tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of British people working for Russia.

It might be noted that Morrissey was accused of treason, c.1989. His name was raised in the House of Commons, no less. And the accusation came with the associated legal protections. It’s the default response, whenever resistance looks like it might become effective.

As an aside, Galloway was the amongst the first to point out Robert Maxwell’s KGB connections. That proved true. Nobody batted an eyelid. Get my drift?

Just to clarify - are you a UK pro-Russian left-winger who thinks using the UK right-wing will further your cause? Or - are you a UK right-winger who thinks being used by the UK pro-Russian left will further your cause?
 

Tingle3

Member
A Mancunian singing "London is dead, London is dead" to an audience of mostly Londoners on a bill featuring other Londoners did not go down well. Who'd have thought?
 
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