TQID vs. S,HWC

[Andrewroon]

This topic has been beat to death in interviews and books for years, and I don't pretend to be able to add anything to the debate. But, has the debate between The Queen Is Dead vs. Strangeways, Here We Come ever been examined through a purely song vs. song lens? Track one vs. track one, etc. Of course we can get overly objective here and ask if we're going off of personal preference or what we think we're supposed to prefer. For example, "Death of A Disco Dancer" is a better SMITHS song than "I Know It's Over" in that it shines a light on all 4 members, but I feel most Smiths fans would prefer the latter. So, I will use my own judgement here, and anyone feel free to correct me.

I was glancing through Goddard's Mozzipedia yesterday and quite frankly I am often baffled by how so many people favor SHWC over TQID. I almost feel like it is now cool to prefer SHWC because TQID has gotten so much press in the last decade as the 'best of' lists populate every popular magazine in the US and the UK.

As a caveat I will say that I love both albums, but I just wonder if anyone else ever wonders why it feels that a large percentage of Smiths fans call SHWC the best Smiths album.

1) I think most of us would agree that the title track TQID wins this one with little resistance. Score 1-0
2) A bit of a toss up, but in my opinion "Frankly Mr. Shankly" edges out "I Started Something." Score 2-0
3) Even tougher than the previous, still, "I Know It's Over," in my opinion, wins this one. Score 3-0
4) "Girlfriend" wins this one. Done. Score 3-1
5) Another tough one, but for "Cemetry Gates" has always been a personal favorite. While I love "Stop Me" I need to award this one to "Cemetry." Score 4-1
6) One of the tougher ones. It's hard to argue with "Last Night" though. Score 4-2
7) Two relatively aptly matched songs. "Unhappy Birthday" edges out "Boy" for me however. Score 4-3
8) "Paint A Vulgar Picture" wins this one with little resistance, again, for me. Score 4-4
9) No questions here. Score 5-4
10) For me, "Some Girls" wins this one fairly easily. Score 6-4

*Granted, this is all an oversimplified run through. And several tracks could go either way depending on the day, or mood. The point is, however, that TQID contains stronger songs from SHWC, and it contains more great songs. "Bigmouth" and "Boy" are two very strong songs, for example, and they 'lost.'

 

[Worm]

"Strangeways" is almost impossible to judge objectively. It was released after The Smiths split, so it's difficult to listen to the album without also hearing an echo of a thousand things unrelated to the music. The circumstances surrounding its release are of course vastly different, but it's not unlike Joy Division's "Closer". Subsequent events hang over it like a shadow. Add to this the fact that for years Johnny and Morrissey called SHWC their best record, and it's easy to see why opinions are somewhat scattered when it comes to TQID and SHWC.

The fact is, there are people who also think "The Smiths" was their masterpiece, or "Hatful of Hollow", or "Meat Is Murder"; I myself have played "Rank" more than any other Smiths album for the last 10 years, so my own view is somewhat skewed. It speaks to the greatness of the music that just about any Smiths album can be called the band's greatest.

Personally I prefer "The Queen Is Dead" because it's funnier-- much-- than "Strangeways, Here We Come". On the latter LP, the lyrics are not a whole lot darker than in previous Smiths songs, but they are marbled with a strain of implacable pessimism which was slightly out of character. "I Know It's Over" couldn't be more suited for a graveyard, yet I always feel the person singing the song is still open to life, still vulnerable and, deep down, hopeful. The person in "Death of A Disco Dancer" is a bathetic version of Travis Bickle. On the other hand, "Strangeways" was more adventurous musically. Purely in terms of sound, it has aged the best of the four studio albums. It's the freshest of the lot. I believe Morrissey and Johnny when they say they were at the peak of their powers when they recorded the album.

Also, in favor of "Strangeways", I think it's a more cohesive album. I have to agree with those who question the track listing on side two of "The Queen Is Dead". Over the years, I've come to agree that the inclusion of "Bigmouth Strikes Again" and "The Boy With The Thorn In His Side" was a slight miscalculation. Other tracks would be been better. I don't know if "Asleep" and "Unloveable" should have been used, as the NME suggested, but that might have been more intriguing.

A trivial note: "Strangeways" always had one strike against it, in my eyes, because of the Richard Davalos sleeve. The photo itself is brilliant, but with the coloring and the fonts Morrissey chose the total effect is washed out and punchless. The Harvey Keitel cover would have made a big difference. (I know this observation has f*** all to do with the music, but let's face it, image was a big part of the appeal of Morrissey/Smiths records; to this day I'll occasionally balk at playing "Southpaw Grammar" because Morrissey used Times New Roman on the sleeve.)

 

[mcrickson]

I tend to listen to "Strangeways" more than I listen to TQID. I've realized that I tend to put a lot of time in between TQID on the rotation, and perhaps that's because it IS so calculatedly strong. I'd view TQID more as a "classic" album (whatever that means) because of its strong content, and as such, in my head it's a bit like listening to "Sgt. Pepper" or "The Correct Use of Soap." The content of these "classic" albums is often heralded as among the best of the best non-compilation collections of material these bands put out (and rightfully so). But as a result, songs like "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds," "A Song From Under the Floorboards," and even "There is A Light" tend to get flogged to death because you constantly hear them being portrayed by music media as representative of a band's work - which, as Smiths' fans with a wide array of preferences in the group's work know, is something that is insultingly impossible to encapsulate inside four walls. Eventually, you end up having "Revolver," "Secondhand Daylight," and "Strangeways" in heavier rotation when listening to albums. Just because the songs seem "fresher" for lack of a better word, not necessarily having been mistakenly earmarked as "essentials." But they are.
"In conclusion, I digress."

 

[Raphael Lambach]

To me they are really different.
Of course, SHWC is more madure...

 

[VivaGil]

I like strangeways because it feels like a cohesive recording. I listen to the previous albums and going from song to song and some sound great and others not as such. Soundwise I think it's much better. Whilst I prefer meat is murder, I feel that strangeways its stronger even though cemetry, there is a light, and the queen is dead alone elevate it so far

 

[Skylarker]

Strangeways has some songs that nearly dwarf The Queen Is Dead all by themselves, however; I love TQID and can't find a bad song on it. I also love the way it sounds; very lush and robust, whereas I have never been real jazzed about the way Strangeways sounds very flat and one dimensional. So overall, The Queen Is Dead, but both are phenomenal records.

I'd also like to add that I am a bigger Solo fan than a Smiths fan; and would take Bona Drag over anything The Smiths did.

 

[123xyz]

Strangeways has some songs that nearly dwarf The Queen Is Dead all by themselves, however; I love TQID and can't find a bad song on it. I also love the way it sounds; very lush and robust, whereas I have never been real jazzed about the way Strangeways sounds very flat and one dimensional. So overall, The Queen Is Dead, but both are phenomenal records.

I'd also like to add that I am a bigger Solo fan than a Smiths fan; and would take Bona Drag over anything The Smiths did.

How odd - I've always felt that TQID had, by far, the worse production of the two. It sounds ( to me ) a bit too thin and bare in parts whereas SHWC feels (?) thicker and , indeed, lush. Is my tinnitus is worse than I thought ... hmm ?


I think I may have just decided which album I prefer while looking at this thread. I think it's SHWC. As much as I love the title track on TQID , that album perhaps offers just a few too many songs that seem excessively twee/whimsical. I'd lump "Vicar" , "Cemetry", "Shankly" & "Boy with Thorn" into that category. On SHWC, it's only "Death...Elbow" that I'd classify as veering near to such.

This ratio of "twee" to "non-twee" leaves TQID perhaps too insubstantial for its own good whereas I feel SHWC is a better balanced album , with a wonderfully potent song , in "Last Night..." ,matching the power of the rival's title track.


So, yes, it's SHWC for me , both in terms of production/mixing and a song-by-song showdown.

 

[123xyz]

to this day I'll occasionally balk at playing "Southpaw Grammar" because Morrissey used Times New Roman on the sleeve.)

I think there's medication that may be able to help with this condition...

 

[Skylarker]

The Queen Is Dead was not perfect. There is no sane reason that Rubber Ring was not included, or Asleep. I love Unlovable but I don't agree with its dismissal in favor of Vicar In A Tutu..although Vicar added some much needed levity to the album, and it's a good track, but overall it's a novelty song. However, Unlovable would have made the record too heavy, given the two dirges already present.

Ideal tracklisting:

The Queen Is Dead
Frankly, Mr. Shankly
Bigmouth Strikes Again
Never Had No One Ever
The Boy With The Thorn In His Side
I Know It's Over

Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others
Cemet'ry Gates
Rubber Ring
There Is A Light That Never Goes Out
Asleep

 

[myboyracer]

To me, The Queen is Dead sounds more rockier and raw whereas Strangeways, Here it Comes sounds more poppish and more polished-souding. Anyway, I love both albums.

 

[Cornflakes]

How odd - I've always felt that TQID had, by far, the worse production of the two. It sounds ( to me ) a bit too thin and bare in parts whereas SHWC feels (?) thicker and , indeed, lush. Is my tinnitus is worse than I thought ... hmm ?

Yes, in terms of production and mix, Stranegeways doesn't face much competition from TQID. Although, if you're listening to the title track of TQID, it's probably difficult to know if you have tinnitus or not.

I think the best way to compare the songs that are the weak links rather than the ones that are the best, and that's where TQID scores. I don't think the Smiths ever recorded anything else as lyrically and musically bland as "Unhappy Birthday", for example.

 

[JJKelsall]

The songs from Th Queen Is Dead were some of the first smith songs I ever heard. In the beggining, I first listened to the Queen Is Dead but wasn't struck by it until much later. After deciding that I wouldn't like the Smiths I didn't listen to them for a while, but then I heard Frankly, Mr Shankly and thought it was such a witty and unusual song that I had to listen to more. I think the next song I heard was Bigmouth Strikes Again, then There Is a Light. As these songs introduced me to the smiths I always regard the whole album as important.

However, I think that Strangeways is by far an easier listen just because it is much lighter than the Queen Is Dead. Pain A Vulgar Picture is also one of my favourite Smiths songs, and although many fans hate it, I always loved the uniqueness of Death at One's Elbow. All in all I would have to say that in hindsight I prefer Strangeways, because I think that musically, it stands out the most against all the other records.

Though I do think that I'd take 'The Smiths' over either of these, purely because it tends to be the one I listen to most often.

 

[123xyz]

I don't think the Smiths ever recorded anything else as lyrically and musically bland as "Unhappy Birthday", for example.

Really ? I couldn't disagree more - from that mournful opening note ,I'm always hooked. What was it ,in particular, that bothered you about this song ? I tend to think most of "Louder Than Bombs" rates far higher in blandness than this track e.g. "Is It Really So Strange ?" , "This Night Has Opened.." , "You Just haven't Earned...", "Unloveable" etc.

 

[Luke Action McClure]

Track 1: The queen is dead vs. A rush and a push and the land is ours

Track 2: Frankly, Mr Shankly vs. I started something I couldn't finish

Track 3: I know it's over vs. Death of a disco dancer

Track 4: Never had no one ever vs. Girlfriend in a coma

Track 5: Cemetry gates vs. Stop me if you think you've heard this one before

Track 6: Bigmouth strikes again vs. Last night I dreamt that somebody loved me

Track 7: The boy with a thorn in his side vs. Unhappy birthday

Track 8: Vicar in a tutu vs. Paint a vulgar picture

Track 9: There is a light that never goes out vs. Death at one's elbow

Track 10: Some girls are bigger than others vs. I won't share you

Final score: 6-4 to TQID... yet I prefer S,HWC. f***.

 

[Worm]

I think there's medication that may be able to help with this condition...

Yes, and it's sold in bottles.

 

[Worm]

I don't think the Smiths ever recorded anything else as lyrically and musically bland as "Unhappy Birthday", for example.

"Unhappy Birthday" is an example of how the odd cynicism and pessimism pervading the album's lyrics submerges some of its charm. I don't know if "Unhappy Birthday" can be described as musically sophisticated, but if you ignore the words I think it's a fantastic pop song. It's one of my least favorite tracks because it's one of the rare instances in his career when Morrissey's lyrics were both needlessly petulant and resoundingly unimaginative. The stab at humor makes the whole song sound shallow. But if you just hum the vocal melody and enjoy the music, it's actually a decent track, especially when played extremely loud.

 

[Worm]

The Queen Is Dead was not perfect. There is no sane reason that Rubber Ring was not included, or Asleep. I love Unlovable but I don't agree with its dismissal in favor of Vicar In A Tutu..although Vicar added some much needed levity to the album, and it's a good track, but overall it's a novelty song. However, Unlovable would have made the record too heavy, given the two dirges already present.

Ideal tracklisting:

The Queen Is Dead
Frankly, Mr. Shankly
Bigmouth Strikes Again
Never Had No One Ever
The Boy With The Thorn In His Side
I Know It's Over

Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others
Cemet'ry Gates
Rubber Ring
There Is A Light That Never Goes Out
Asleep

Excellent, although I'd leave "The Boy With The Thorn In His Side" off the album (keeping it as a standalone single) and move "Some Girls" to the end. I think it's the best album-closer they recorded.

 

[Nikita]

I don't think the track by track comparison is relevant, especially since the quality of an album is not the sum of the qualities of its songs ...

 

[123xyz]

"Unhappy Birthday" is an example of how the odd cynicism and pessimism pervading the album's lyrics submerges some of its charm. I don't know if "Unhappy Birthday" can be described as musically sophisticated, but if you ignore the words I think it's a fantastic pop song. It's one of my least favorite tracks because it's one of the rare instances in his career when Morrissey's lyrics were both needlessly petulant and resoundingly unimaginative. The stab at humor makes the whole song sound shallow. But if you just hum the vocal melody and enjoy the music, it's actually a decent track, especially when played extremely loud.

I'm vaguely tempted to troll you - stop badmouthing one of my favourite songs ! (Cue "Negativity" theme music)


More seriously , I'd genuinely like to hear a bit more elaboration on the idea of the song's lyrics being unusually "... petulant and resoundingly unimaginative..." . I don't agree ( or is it , as ever, that I don't understand ?). I don't see them as being so very distinct to the rest of Morrissey's words ...

 

[Worm]

How odd - I've always felt that TQID had, by far, the worse production of the two. It sounds ( to me ) a bit too thin and bare in parts whereas SHWC feels (?) thicker and , indeed, lush. Is my tinnitus is worse than I thought ... hmm ?


I think I may have just decided which album I prefer while looking at this thread. I think it's SHWC. As much as I love the title track on TQID , that album perhaps offers just a few too many songs that seem excessively twee/whimsical. I'd lump "Vicar" , "Cemetry", "Shankly" & "Boy with Thorn" into that category. On SHWC, it's only "Death...Elbow" that I'd classify as veering near to such.

This ratio of "twee" to "non-twee" leaves TQID perhaps too insubstantial for its own good whereas I feel SHWC is a better balanced album , with a wonderfully potent song , in "Last Night..." ,matching the power of the rival's title track.


So, yes, it's SHWC for me , both in terms of production/mixing and a song-by-song showdown.

I agree, the songs veer pretty close to twee. However, they work on TQID because they're surrounded by darker material. The album keeps throwing you off balance, mixing humor and melancholy in really clever ways. I love TQID because it showcases the way the serious side of The Smiths blended together with the whimsical, funny side. Sometimes you can hear it in the same song, sometimes it's one song following another. For me, "Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others" closes the album beautifully because it's basically a comedy routine following one of the heaviest and most romantic songs The Smiths recorded. If you hear the song by itself, it's a novelty. Following "There Is A Light", it relieves some of the gloom and works as a declaration of intent, Morrissey telling us he'll be as perverse as he wants to be. That's why the theft of the line "Send me the pillow..." was absolutely perfect.