"To die by his side: How far is too far for Morrissey’s devout fanbase?" - FACT Magazine

To die by his side: How far is too far for Morrissey’s devout fanbase? - FACT Magazine
by April Clare Welsh

A rather interesting article allowing both sides of the argument. Includes contribution from the man who still runs this website for better or worse...

The audiences he has been attracting in Mexico are phenomenal for someone without a record deal but the glory days are long gone for me.


Related items:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

Anonymous

Guest
No... in your post #53 you said....

'Remember, this is Morrissey we're talking about, the same person who thought that'"I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" should be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.'


And so I ask again .....


Can you please supply a link to him saying that the song would be a hit just because it had the word 'Paris' in it?


Or are you just 'bending any facts' to support your predetermined conclusions?

:tiphat:

It was a good LIE :D
 
A

Angela Davis Jr

Guest
Sorry, but it is not actually feasible to decipher a coherent point of view out of this post. On the hand you complain about using the phrase "a black man", and at the same time you seem to argue that it also is not possible to do the opposite, because racism and injustice is real an ongoing, which of course it is. So....you're looking for what, exactly?

I wasn't complaining that you referred to him as a black man. I was pointing out that you used that term but were saying that there are other equally obvious or appropriate ways to read the shirt. My point is that most people see a "black man" juxtaposed with the phrase "black on the inside" and that it takes some real verbal and mental gymnastics to see the meaning as something other than being about his skin color. I hope that makes more sense. It seemed as if you were saying 'we don't know how the word black is being applied here" while also using the phrase black man, but I don't see "black man" as offensive. I just thought you corroborated the meaning that most people seem to see.
 

Qvist

Well-Known Member
Well then, we part on good terms, it seems. :)

And I agree With you that it is to take rather a lot for granted to send forth into the world a t-shirt such as this. For my part, I did not immediately recognise the man as Baldwin when I first saw it, and found it, more than anything else, puzzling. But then, to make powerful statements that are liable to be misunderstood and would victimise him when they inevitably are seems to be a Lifetime habit of Morrissey's. And that goes as much for his best work as his often somewhat objectionable Public statements of late, and it's also a key part of why he matters. He never makes Things easy for People.
 
A

Angela Davis Jr

Guest
Well then, we part on good terms, it seems. :)

And I agree With you that it is to take rather a lot for granted to send forth into the world a t-shirt such as this. For my part, I did not immediately recognise the man as Baldwin when I first saw it, and found it, more than anything else, puzzling. But then, to make powerful statements that are liable to be misunderstood and would victimise him when they inevitably are seems to be a Lifetime habit of Morrissey's. And that goes as much for his best work as his often somewhat objectionable Public statements of late, and it's also a key part of why he matters. He never makes Things easy for People.

I think he intentionally tests his fans. Not to drag in another long-running discussion but that would seem to be the best explanation for why he had Kristeen Young as opening act for so long. It was sort of like "You're going to have to come late, wait outside, or endure this to see me. She's my friend. She doesn't like you and you don't like her but I'm putting you in the same room together for a half hour every night. Deal with it."
Of course we can claim many people enjoyed her, etc, etc, but nearly every remark she made onstage was about the lack of appreciation she was being shown by the audience.
And showing those films during "Meat Is Murder" seems confrontational. I imagine that a pretty good percentage of his core audience are already aware of the horrible conditions animals face and many of us try very hard not to use any animal products. To those who had a hamburger on the way to the show maybe the film will reach them but it just makes many of them defiant. Whatever the case he's not a hardcore political punk band and I think playing slaughterhouse footage in the middle of what is a very happy, long anticipated night out with a favorite artist seems questionable. I can see both sides. The slaughterhouse footage is certainly not as off-putting as a set by Kristeen Young.
But the thing is I do agree that it's not easy to be his fan and while we might not agree on the specifics I think we agree that sometimes he makes it difficult intentionally.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I think he intentionally tests his fans. Not to drag in another long-running discussion but that would seem to be the best explanation for why he had Kristeen Young as opening act for so long. It was sort of like "You're going to have to come late, wait outside, or endure this to see me. She's my friend. She doesn't like you and you don't like her but I'm putting you in the same room together for a half hour every night. Deal with it."
Of course we can claim many people enjoyed her, etc, etc, but nearly every remark she made onstage was about the lack of appreciation she was being shown by the audience.
And showing those films during "Meat Is Murder" seems confrontational. I imagine that a pretty good percentage of his core audience are already aware of the horrible conditions animals face and many of us try very hard not to use any animal products. To those who had a hamburger on the way to the show maybe the film will reach them but it just makes many of them defiant. Whatever the case he's not a hardcore political punk band and I think playing slaughterhouse footage in the middle of what is a very happy, long anticipated night out with a favorite artist seems questionable. I can see both sides. The slaughterhouse footage is certainly not as off-putting as a set by Kristeen Young.
But the thing is I do agree that it's not easy to be his fan and while we might not agree on the specifics I think we agree that sometimes he makes it difficult intentionally.

I disagree. I feel he tries to connect all the time with his fans, and he has done so in such a high level that he has one of the most loyal fanbases in pop music. From the words of his lyrics to his voice, movements, acts like when he asked security to let people come closer in Mexico, his high auto demand, it is noticeable he wants to connect. Of course it is not easy to connect with everybody. Taking in consideration the big number of divorces, we can see that sometimes it is very difficult to connect with one single person, the one you are supposed to love. So imagine how difficult it must be to have a connection with so many different people at the same time in the way that make those people think you are doing the right thing all the time. It must be extremely difficult. We all here are from very different places of the world, with notoriously different personalities, tastes, sexual orientations, religions, etc. And it's obvious that he connected with us at least at some moment of our lives. "Why do you come here?" :)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I think he intentionally tests his fans. Not to drag in another long-running discussion but that would seem to be the best explanation for why he had Kristeen Young as opening act for so long. It was sort of like "You're going to have to come late, wait outside, or endure this to see me. She's my friend. She doesn't like you and you don't like her but I'm putting you in the same room together for a half hour every night. Deal with it."
Of course we can claim many people enjoyed her, etc, etc, but nearly every remark she made onstage was about the lack of appreciation she was being shown by the audience.
And showing those films during "Meat Is Murder" seems confrontational. I imagine that a pretty good percentage of his core audience are already aware of the horrible conditions animals face and many of us try very hard not to use any animal products. To those who had a hamburger on the way to the show maybe the film will reach them but it just makes many of them defiant. Whatever the case he's not a hardcore political punk band and I think playing slaughterhouse footage in the middle of what is a very happy, long anticipated night out with a favorite artist seems questionable. I can see both sides. The slaughterhouse footage is certainly not as off-putting as a set by Kristeen Young.
But the thing is I do agree that it's not easy to be his fan and while we might not agree on the specifics I think we agree that sometimes he makes it difficult intentionally.

And what's wrong with making things difficult?
 

Ketamine Sun

HANG THEM HIGH VERONICA
For people that can read, there were three links there. Thanks.

No... in your post #53 you said....

'Remember, this is Morrissey we're talking about, the same person who thought that'"I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" should be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.'

Where in those three links does M say that the song would be a hit just because it had the word 'Paris' in it?


And so I ask a third time .....

Can you please supply a link to him saying that the song would be a hit just because it had the word 'Paris' in it?


Or are you just 'bending any facts' to support your predetermined conclusions?


:tiphat:
 
F

F Lee Bailey

Guest
No... in your post #53 you said....

'Remember, this is Morrissey we're talking about, the same person who thought that'"I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" should be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.'

Where in those three links does M say that the song would be a hit just because it had the word 'Paris' in it?


And so I ask a third time .....

Can you please supply a link to him saying that the song would be a hit just because it had the word 'Paris' in it?


Or are you just 'bending any facts' to support your predetermined conclusions?


:tiphat:

I think that reading the links from the fansite makes that clear. Morrissey does not directly say that of course, but Morrissey claims his request was rejected and that he has proof. He then offers as proof a letter signed by Boz. From this, Morrissey's own words, you can deduce that the words are either written by Morrissey or that, by his own claim, they function as if they were his words.
In the Boz email it states that the song would be a number one hit.
So, we now have Morrissey in effect saying that the song would be a number one hit.
No reason is given but it's pretty clear that it's because the song has the word Paris in the title.
The song doesn't really celebrate people or life in Paris. It doesn't function as a tribute to the people who died in the attacks, many of whom were enjoying life with people they loved. It's about being alone.
"In the absence of your love
And in the absence of human touch
I have decided
I'm throwing my arms around, around Paris
Because only stone and steel accept my love"

This isn't an appropriate tribute to people that were enjoying life with crowds of other human beings. The only reason this song would have come to mind is because it's somewhat about Paris, or at least that's what the title tells us. It could be about Poughkeepsie, New York for all that it actually places us in any location.

The point I was making is that Morrissey thinks "Paris! I've got a song for that!" or "Black! I've got a song for that!" Is it boneheaded, tone deaf, and inappropriate? Who cares! And in both cases who was the beneficiary? Morrissey. He couldn't even be bother to suggest that they might put the author's name on the shirt. He lied and said there was no interest in re-releasing "Paris" when in fact he was given permission to do so. He is the one who lost interest when the record company asked where the profits would go. He was excited to think that the record company could re-release the song, he'd have a number one hit, and get lots of publicity. But

"We have not received—let alone refused—any request from Morrissey himself related to 'I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris'," the label told Pitchfork. "While we have not been contacted directly by Morrissey, after seeing the comments on his website last week, we asked his representative to confirm his intentions and which charity he had in mind to support via the song's proceeds. We are yet to receive a reply."​

once there was a request to support charity it was Morrissey who lost interest. Then went on to lie about it.

I wonder if the Baldwin shirt was going to benefit anyone? I wonder if the photographer was going to be paid? I wonder if licensing was going to be paid for use of the image? If so I think all of those things would mark a new way of doing business for Morrissey.
He's a great singer and has done some unique and powerful songs but he can be quite simple and obvious. He really ought to start reading Shelagh Delaney again. There might be some great lines there to use. I don't think the whole black activist thing is a good fit for him.
 

Ketamine Sun

HANG THEM HIGH VERONICA
I think that reading the links from the fansite makes that clear. Morrissey does not directly say that of course, but Morrissey claims his request was rejected and that he has proof. He then offers as proof a letter signed by Boz. From this, Morrissey's own words, you can deduce that the words are either written by Morrissey or that, by his own claim, they function as if they were his words.
In the Boz email it states that the song would be a number one hit.
So, we now have Morrissey in effect saying that the song would be a number one hit.
No reason is given but it's pretty clear that it's because the song has the word Paris in the title.
The song doesn't really celebrate people or life in Paris. It doesn't function as a tribute to the people who died in the attacks, many of whom were enjoying life with people they loved. It's about being alone.
"In the absence of your love
And in the absence of human touch
I have decided
I'm throwing my arms around, around Paris
Because only stone and steel accept my love"

This isn't an appropriate tribute to people that were enjoying life with crowds of other human beings. The only reason this song would have come to mind is because it's somewhat about Paris, or at least that's what the title tells us. It could be about Poughkeepsie, New York for all that it actually places us in any location.

The point I was making is that Morrissey thinks "Paris! I've got a song for that!" or "Black! I've got a song for that!" Is it boneheaded, tone deaf, and inappropriate? Who cares! And in both cases who was the beneficiary? Morrissey. He couldn't even be bother to suggest that they might put the author's name on the shirt. He lied and said there was no interest in re-releasing "Paris" when in fact he was given permission to do so. He is the one who lost interest when the record company asked where the profits would go. He was excited to think that the record company could re-release the song, he'd have a number one hit, and get lots of publicity. But

"We have not received—let alone refused—any request from Morrissey himself related to 'I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris'," the label told Pitchfork. "While we have not been contacted directly by Morrissey, after seeing the comments on his website last week, we asked his representative to confirm his intentions and which charity he had in mind to support via the song's proceeds. We are yet to receive a reply."​

once there was a request to support charity it was Morrissey who lost interest. Then went on to lie about it.

I wonder if the Baldwin shirt was going to benefit anyone? I wonder if the photographer was going to be paid? I wonder if licensing was going to be paid for use of the image? If so I think all of those things would mark a new way of doing business for Morrissey.
He's a great singer and has done some unique and powerful songs but he can be quite simple and obvious. He really ought to start reading Shelagh Delaney again. There might be some great lines there to use. I don't think the whole black activist thing is a good fit for him.

With your posted links, and after all you wrote above .... so much assumption and speculation about what you think M thinks (as if you could really know).. there is nothing to support a fact that in fact this is or that was what M was thinking.

you still have no proof that would support the statement you made in your post #53

which is ....

'Remember, this is Morrissey we're talking about, the same person who thought that'"I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" should be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.'

You gave your interpretation of the song, so let me give you mine....

It is a love song to Paris, it (Paris) is the only place/thing that he finally found that he can love and in a strange way feel loved back, not by any individual person, but by the whole living vibrant culture of Paris and the people that have built it with stone and steel, (for stone and steel and Paris itself could only be built by people).

Also I must stress this is my personal opinion and interpretation of the song, though it wouldn't be difficult to believe as I believe that only I would interpret the song in this way.

And so unless you can provide evidence(as in a quote) of him saying that "I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" would be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.' then there's nothing more to say, except.....

please don't go 'bending any facts' just to support your predetermined conclusions.


Have a good day... Calamine Lotion.

:tiphat:
 
F

F Lee Bailey

Guest
With your posted links, and after all you wrote above .... so much assumption and speculation about what you think M thinks (as if you could really know).. there is nothing to support a fact that in fact this is or that was what M was thinking.

you still have no proof that would support the statement you made in your post #53

which is ....

'Remember, this is Morrissey we're talking about, the same person who thought that'"I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" should be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.'

You gave your interpretation of the song, so let me give you mine....

It is a love song to Paris, it (Paris) is the only place/thing that he finally found that he can love and in a strange way feel loved back, not by any individual person, but by the whole living vibrant culture of Paris and the people that have built it with stone and steel, (for stone and steel and Paris itself could only be built by people).

Also I must stress this is my personal opinion and interpretation of the song, though it wouldn't be difficult to believe as I believe that only I would interpret the song in this way.

And so unless you can provide evidence(as in a quote) of him saying that "I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" would be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.' then there's nothing more to say, except.....

please don't go 'bending any facts' just to support your predetermined conclusions.


Have a good day... Calamine Lotion.

:tiphat:

There is nothing in the song about the culture of Paris. You offer nothing to support your interpretation.

You really seem to have been struck by that thing I wrote about making the facts conform to predetermined conclusions. The only conclusion possible is almost too obvious to state but the reason you've repeated this several times could only be that at some basic level you recognize it to be an accurate description of your affliction and behavior. Example: "for stone and steel and Paris itself could only be built by people"
You would have been better off to have not even added that. Stay vague. Something like "How could a song about Paris not celebrate the people of Paris" would be a lot better. Of course it's explicitly not about the people of Paris. "In the absence of human touch" makes that clear, but at least you'd only look illiterate instead of delusional.

I am confused by the Calamine Lotion thing. I thought I was supposed to be count three. Better ask Starsky and Hutch. Huggy Bear knows the word on the street.
 

Ketamine Sun

HANG THEM HIGH VERONICA
There is nothing in the song about the culture of Paris. You offer nothing to support your interpretation.

You really seem to have been struck by that thing I wrote about making the facts conform to predetermined conclusions. The only conclusion possible is almost too obvious to state but the reason you've repeated this several times could only be that at some basic level you recognize it to be an accurate description of your affliction and behavior. Example: "for stone and steel and Paris itself could only be built by people"
You would have been better off to have not even added that. Stay vague. Something like "How could a song about Paris not celebrate the people of Paris" would be a lot better. Of course it's explicitly not about the people of Paris. "In the absence of human touch" makes that clear, but at least you'd only look illiterate instead of delusional.

I am confused by the Calamine Lotion thing. I thought I was supposed to be count three. Better ask Starsky and Hutch. Huggy Bear knows the word on the street.

don't give up. Maybe someday M will say 'I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" should be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.'

then you'll be on the side of truth, but until then .....

:tiphat:
 
F

F Lee Bailey

Guest
don't give up. Maybe someday M will say 'I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris" should be an obvious hit single because it has the word Paris in it.'

then you'll be on the side of truth, but until then .....

:tiphat:
.
The funny thing is that you don't even understand the meaning of Morrissey's song. "Surely the people made the steel"
The problem is that while it's true no person can have the final say of the meaning of a work, people can come to some sort of consensus about what is likely and use reasoning to, if not prove, at least show how they arrived at their conclusions. All interpretations are not equally valid. "In the absence of human touch" is not a fitting tribute to people who have been massacred while enjoying life with people they care about.
But as they say, "you do you!" Bots gotta bot!

Whether Morrissey said the exact words or not that was the exact thought. Capitalize on the word "Paris." Capitalize on the word "Black." Pretend to give a shit and make some money and get some publicity in the process.

Now you can write some more nonsense but you look like an idiot and so do I for responding repeatedly. I will try very hard to ignore any further replies in this thread.
 

Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
"In the absence of your spotty face (he sang that on the BBC radio broadcasting)
I travel all over the place
and I have decided
I'm throwing my arms around
around Paris because
only stone and steel accept my love

The person he is impersonating in this song
(Might be him of course, who knows?)
has lost his love and is very disappointed,
and decides to love the beautiful stone and steel of Paris. And not any other human being anymore.
Not a bad choice. As a city I mean.
Apparently, he is able to do so.
That's what this song is about and it is an authentic and original thought, idea and feeling.
Of course it is about the city as a whole, made by and inhabited by it's people.
He loves that city as is very well known by most of us.
I also like the vague, ironic implication of the lyrics.
Almost lovingly ironic.
It's such a good song.
Maybe too much in the set lists so some got tired of it.
 

Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
To answer the question that does NOT cover the story: How far is too far for Morrissey's devout fanbase? For me, as far as he can go.
How far is that? Far. Not that I felt comfortable with things he has said and done. But the T-shirt doesn't.

Only individual answers by each member are possible, not by the devout fanbase as a whole, and they will all differ. Hooray.
The question is vague and not clear so I can answer accordingly.
I am able to understand people who think differently.
 

Trending Threads

Top Bottom