Thoughts like this are not compatable with a civilized western society

[The Seeker of Good Songs]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20653032-601,00.html

Edited transcript of Sheik Hilali's speech
This is an edited transcript, by SBS translator Dalia Mattar, of Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali's speech

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]27oct06[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"Those atheists, people of the book (Christians and Jews), where will they end up? In Surfers Paradise? On the Gold Coast?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"Where will they end up? In hell. And not part-time. For eternity. They are the worst in God's creation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"Who commits the crimes of theft? The man or the woman? The man. That's why the man was mentioned before the woman when it comes to theft because his responsibility is providing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"But when it comes to adultery, it's 90 per cent the women's responsibility. Why? Because a woman possesses the weapon of seduction. It is she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It's she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then it's a look, then a smile, then a conversation, a greeting, then a conversation, then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay jail. (laughs).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, scholar al-Rafihi says: 'If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.' Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn't have snatched it."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"If you take a kilo of meat, and you don't put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you're crazy. Isn't this true?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"If the meat was covered, the cats wouldn't roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won't get it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"If the meat was in the fridge and it (the cat) smelled it, it can bang its head as much as it wants, but it's no use.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she's wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don't happen.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"That's why he said she owns the weapon of seduction.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"Satan sees women as half his soldiers. You're my messenger to achieve my needs. Satan tells women you're my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you're the best of my weapons.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]"The woman was behind Satan playing a role when she disobeyed God and went out all dolled up and unveiled and made of herself palatable food that rakes and perverts would race for. She was the reason behind this sin taking place.[/FONT]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=412697&in_page_id=1770

Outrage as Muslim cleric likens women to 'uncovered meat'

By RICHARD SHEARS Last updated at 16:10pm on 26th October 2006

A Muslim cleric's claim that women who do not wear the veil are like 'uncovered meat' who attract sexual predators sparked outrage around Australia yesterday. Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, the nation's most senior Muslim cleric, compared immodestly-dressed women who do not wear the Islamic headdress with meat that is left uncovered in the street and is then eaten by cats.

Politicians including Prime Minister John Howard, community leaders and a large number of Muslims condemned the mufti's comments amid calls that he should be deported to Egypt, his country of origin.
He has since been forced to apologise for his remarks.
In a Ramadam sermon in a Sydney mosque, Sheik al-Hilali suggested that a group of Muslim men recently jailed for many years for gang rapes were not entirely to blame.

There were women, he said, who 'sway suggestively' and wore make-up and immodest dress "and then you get a judge without mercy and gives you 65 years. But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he said, referring to the women victims.

Addressing 500 worshippers on the topic of adultery, Sheik al-Hilali added: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered meat?
"The uncovered meat is the problem."

He went on: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (veil), no problem would have occurred."

Women, he said, were 'weapons' used by Satan to control men.

His comments, reported yesterday in the nationally-circulated newspaper The Australian, created a storm of outrage.
It follows anger that erupted among Muslims in Britain earlier this month when MP Jack Straw said women who wear veils over their face can make community relations harder.
But Sheik al-Hilali's has created an even bigger storm by using the uncovered meat example to accuse women who do not cover their heads and faces of tempting men.
Prime Minister Howard labelled the mufti's comments as 'appalling and reprehensible', adding: "They are quite out of touch with contemporary values in Australia.
"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous. I not only reject the comments, I condemn them unconditionally." Treasurer Peter Costello urged the Muslim community to condemn the comments and take action against the Sheik.
"If you have a significant religious leader like this preaching to a flock in a situation where we've had gang rapes, in a way that seems to make it justifiable, or at least lighten the dehumanising and degrading extent of the offence."
A close associate of the sheik, Keysar Trad, said the speech was about adultery, not rape. "He wasn't talking about standard norms of dress in Australia or any country, he wasn't talking about the hijab, he was talking about people who engage in extramarital sex." But Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner Miss Pru Goward said there could be no backtracking over the comments. "He could be guilty of incitement to the crime of rape and should be deported," she said.

 

[Worm]

Wrong. Thoughts like these are completely compatible with "civilized Western society". They are compatible because we believe in freedom of thought and expression.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

i wish i could read

 

[The Seeker of Good Songs]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

Wrong. Thoughts like these are completely compatible with "civilized Western society". They are compatible because we believe in freedom of thought and expression.

You are wrong.

Being able to think and express what one chooses is compatible, not every thought and expression is compatible.

Telling a woman it is her fault that she was raped by a man with no self-control because she wasn't covered head to toe, that she showed some skin, is not "western", it is barbaric.

Cutting the clitoris off of a 2 year old with a scissors is not compatible either, even if one wants to "express" it.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Genital_Mutilation.html

"The prosecutor quoted Adem as saying in late 2002 and early 2003 that if the girl were not circumcised, "it will be a shame to the family."
"He said he wanted (the girl) to have it done so that she will not be promiscuous," First added. He also said Adem implied he had already circumcised the girl."

Civilized? I think not.

 

[The Seeker of Good Songs]

I'd quite like to express a strong opinion on this, but if I do, I'll doubtless have many people calling me 'insane' or 'angry'. Pffft.

Be angry if you so choose.

Some problems in society may get resolved if there was more anger.

 

[dazzak]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

Being able to think and express what one chooses is compatible, not every thought and expression is compatible.

Telling a woman it is her fault that she was raped by a man with no self-control because she wasn't covered head to toe, that she showed some skin, is not "western", it is barbaric.

Well, therein lies the beauty and necessity of freedom of expression. What he says doesn't have to be compatible at all and, so long as he doesn't directly incite violence (among other things), the man can do as he wishes. It's also interesting that you somehow feel that his barbaric opinions don't fit in with the West (famed for its peace, love and understanding of course...).

He's just one of the Muslim extremists who is all talk and no action. The man's a coward.

 

[The Seeker of Good Songs]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

so long as he doesn't directly incite violence (among other things), the man can do as he wishes.

"But Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner Miss Pru Goward said there could be no backtracking over the comments. "He could be guilty of incitement to the crime of rape and should be deported," she said."

 

[dazzak]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

"But Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner Miss Pru Goward said there could be no backtracking over the comments. "He could be guilty of incitement to the crime of rape and should be deported," she said."

If they have enough against him, then they should prosecute. I don't see how you can really prosecute someone with inciting rape by merely saying that some women tempt men, but if it can be proved, then so be it. I'm not defending his opinions, just his right to air them.

 

[Worm]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

You are wrong.

Western civilzation is strong because of its ideas, the most central and important of which it holds to be based on universal truths available to all. The few in Western societies who don't share those truths are held in check by the overwhelming majority who do. They are held in check by laws, and if they break the laws, they should be punished. If we stand by our beliefs and sleep well at night knowing ours is the superior civilization-- and if we truly believe our societies are healthy enough to deal with these maniacs-- then there is no need to "get angry" and escalate matters into a "clash of civilizations". The few truly dangerous radicals in the Muslim community recruit from a large pool of disaffected, bitter people, mostly young men, a group of Muslims who would just as easily join our side if we didn't recruit them with bombs from the sky.

The strongest, most democratic nation on the planet, the one modern nation state founded from scratch almost solely on the principles of the Enlightenment, which championed moderation over radicalism, which threw open its borders to all, which thrived on innumerable races, creeds, religions, and viewpoints-- the United States-- emerged from the killing fields of the last century as the world's sole superpower, a victory so total that some rather bright people said we had reached "the end of history". They were wrong, but at least that gives a flavor of just how powerful the U.S. has become. With so much success, why are we changing our tune? Why are we aggressively invading other countries? Why are we building fences on our border? Why are we suddenly the angriest paranoids on the block? Why are we suddenly a bunch of xenophobic bullies? Why are we terrified by crazy people preaching medieval religious tenets in ghettos?

Because of nineteen suicidal Saudis with box-cutters? Because of psychopaths living in Pakistani caves who can operate a video camera?

 

[The Seeker of Good Songs]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

Why are we terrified by crazy people preaching medieval religious tenets in ghettos?

Theo van Gogh
Salman Rushdie
Muhammad cartoons

 

[The Seeker of Good Songs]

I am shocked and disturbed by the lack of care or even attention given to the rape issue in this thread.

I thought that it would be assumed that my distaste for the commets of the so called man, would also be a distaste for all he believes in, including the rape. My apologies to you if you thought otherwise.

 

[no one in particular]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

Because of nineteen suicidal Saudis with box-cutters? Because of psychopaths living in Pakistani caves who can operate a video camera?

glad to see you back to posting in your usual polemic style, worm

just the other day, i was saying to Kewpie....

i guess you finally (!) recovered after that epic debate you had with nightandday and are finally back for more

 

[WhyteGrrrl]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

civilized western society? now there is an oxymoron for ya!

 

[Puddle]

Women to be held responsible for rape? hey, it also flies in Italy.

And Worm...it's not only because of 9-11. The US needs to go there to sustain growth. It needs to control the Middle East which, due to its natural resources, is necessary for that growth. At least the oil men in the White House feel that way. Plus, add to that George Bush's Evangelical ties...the Middle East is a logical place for these old-money, Texan, Christian fundamentalists in power right now in the US.

Back to the Middle East. f*** it...I'm sick of radical Islam..all radical religion for that matter, but especially Islam (it really halted progress all around the world. we as a global society are falling back because of radical religious views…radical Islam, stubborn Judaism, and fundamentalist evangelical Christians. When will you damn god believers realize religion is the cause of so much suffering?) and I for one have no idea how to combat it. Obviously western aggression fuels radical islam. It allows the radicals to pass on propaganda to the people. But if you fall back, they will continue anyways. And Israel will never stop (I'm not blaming them).

The best thing is for a bomb to go off and take it all to hell. take this whole planet to hell. f*** it already.

and the Tigers suck. down 3-1 in the series. What the f***. How many f***in’ errors can those damn pitchers commit? Another game lost because of them. f*** it all to hell. Come come nuclear bomb!


On another seperate note. I've been really happy lately. quiting smoking, not drinking, detoxing and cleansing the body does wonders. now if only i can get that job (they were supposed to call monday to let me know. no phone call so far) and that girl (i have none in mind).

 

[Worm]

Re: Thoughts like this are not compatible with a civilized western society

glad to see you back to posting in your usual polemic style, worm

just the other day, i was saying to Kewpie....

i guess you finally (!) recovered after that epic debate you had with nightandday and are finally back for more

A number of factors played into that, but yeah, that was part of it. I would describe that thread as beating my head against a wall for no real reason and (this is partly my own fault) slipping on someone else's banana peels.

joroberts17, I agree about rape, mutilation, misogyny, etc. I don't condone the actions this guy is encouraging in any way, and of course in countries where this is acceptable it's sad and disgusting. My objection to "the war on terror", and to the incredible hype machine built to fuel it, is not that we are fighting phantom enemies but simply that we are fighting real enemies who have been wildly exaggerated in order to validate certain political beliefs. After 9/11 people (including Bush) were so careful in their rhetoric to separate the few crazy Muslims from the vast, sweeping majority of Muslims who are just as sane and non-violent as Christians, Catholics or Jews. But you could see what was coming, and five years later the whole "clash of civilizations" concept is gaining traction. Look no further than one post in this thread.

Sticking to the most important ideas we have, like freedom of speech, is more essential now than ever before. We're fighting a war of ideas-- almost solely a war of ideas. Our culture is superior; I'm not a relativist. If the whole world went Western-style democratic and every schoolkid on the planet was at least as well-versed in John Locke as the Bible or the Koran, if not tenfold moreso, I'd be thrilled. I just think the way we have responded to real threats-- by pumping a handful of thugs into almost mythological monsters-- has only created more problems. Osama Bin Laden was quite clear about what he wanted from 9/11, and everything he wanted to happen has more or less happened. He said America would show its true Satanic colors and invade the Holy Land, and in so doing unite the Muslim world into a new Caliphate. Now, that hasn't happened to the letter, but what seems to be the general drift of events in the Middle East? If Osama's getting what he wants, who's winning?

But back to the nutcase, this cleric. He's in Australia, and I would say of Australia what I'd say of England or America: if our societies are fair and just to all our citizens, then what you have is one loudmouthed maniac who will have no one to recruit. No one will listen to him. In any Western country you will find psychopaths with megaphones recruiting foot soldiers on some campaign to overthrow the existing order. In fact, there have been psychopaths like this guy living in our countries-- representing all religions, cults, ideologies, gangs, and the whole rainbow spectrum of psychopathologies-- for decades and decades. They can only become a problem if our societies are not sufficiently attractive to act as a counterbalance to these idiots' siren songs.

When we give up freedom of speech, or attempt even to regulate what is or is not "compatible thought"-- or, to go beyond the scope of this thread, to wage "pre-emptive" wars, lie our way into conflicts, torture prisoners of war, and clamp down on our own citizens to form a Big Brother-ish security state-- we are sacrificing the best, most attractive, most powerful aspects of our civilization. We need those more than ever. We need to show the murderous fundamentalists that we are stronger and better, because we are. Otherwise we're just what they say we are, bullies with guns. Show me that this cleric has committed a crime, and I'll say throw him in prison. Anything less than that, let him rant and rave. If the people he's trying to reach take advantage of our Western educational system, have jobs that pay a living wage, enjoy health care, and live in relative safety, they are not going to spend their time attending rallies to mutiliate women. Instead, like most Western males, they'll spend their time playing X-Box and downloading Internet porn-- praise God.