there is a light french 7"
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like lovers do
Member
burnedmind
member
But there are two places selling Morrissey's November The 2nd vinyl that are counterfeit. EIL is one and I can assume you all know who the other is...
robert
Same old suit since 1962
What about the yellow + red vinyl pressings of the Debut album?
MIM / QID picture disc pressings. These all came out recently, and weren't WEA issued.
like lovers do
Member
And i should say I don't trust much the sellers who have all this test pressing to sell.. so easy to counterfeit and when u have 10 test pressing of The Smiths 12' who appear on Ebay in 1 months it's suspect.
You can do a vynil pressing with a minimum order of 300 pieces (sometimes less) for a reasonable price
You can do a vynil pressing with a minimum order of 300 pieces (sometimes less) for a reasonable price
beau
Member
I wouldn't consider those counterfeits. Just as you said, they aren't WEA issued, so it's obvious they are not original Rough Trade releases.
With regard to what Like Lovers Do said, could you provide me a link to where you think counterfeit Smiths test pressings are being sold? The person selling 10 Smiths test pressings in 1 month?
And if someone did make counterfeit test pressings, why are they spending all their time, money and trouble to do regular run-of-the-mill test pressings, and not a Reel Around The Fountain? If you had the ability to counterfeit money, why fake one dollar bills?
like lovers do
Member
Sorry i talked about white label.
what i know from my records dealer experience is : when you buy this kind of item, white label, gold discs etc.. you must be really sure of your source 'cause many fake items are in circulation.
For the choice of the songs, i guess it's easier to counterfeit not the most rarer one 'cause the collectors world is little and seing 3 or 4 of the rarest vynil in circulation will be strange.
But 2 or 3 "that joke isn't funny anymore" doesn't sound so strange 'cause less people look at it.
The Gold disc it's an other story, when you know how somes of them are made. Execpt if a good work was made on the frame and all , i'll don't give any cents for it
As for the link sorry, it was 1 or 2 months ago
what i know from my records dealer experience is : when you buy this kind of item, white label, gold discs etc.. you must be really sure of your source 'cause many fake items are in circulation.
For the choice of the songs, i guess it's easier to counterfeit not the most rarer one 'cause the collectors world is little and seing 3 or 4 of the rarest vynil in circulation will be strange.
But 2 or 3 "that joke isn't funny anymore" doesn't sound so strange 'cause less people look at it.
The Gold disc it's an other story, when you know how somes of them are made. Execpt if a good work was made on the frame and all , i'll don't give any cents for it
As for the link sorry, it was 1 or 2 months ago
robert
Same old suit since 1962
These are not made by WEA who owns the rights to the Smiths catalogue. They state Rough Trade as the label, but weren't produced when RT had the rights to make them. Counterfiet (/bootleg) in my book.
As for the money counterfieting analogy, what's the most counterfieted bill? Right, the $20. Because valuable bills of large denominations are scrutinized a lot more closely. Same for the records, why do a highly desired collectable when a standard issue with a twist (such as colored vinyl or pic discs) will fly under the radar. And going for the homerun ball is what raised so many flags with the "November the 2nd" 12" test pressings that all of a sudden popped up.
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beau
Member
Let me preface my response as I view this thread, and every thread I respond to here, as light hearted "shop talk" amongst fellow collecting enthusiasts. So please do not take any of my posts as a rebuttal of all you stand for, culminating with pistols at dawn. I will appreciate civil discourse.
It is my opinion that no collector would confuse the picture discs or colored vinyls as original Rough Trade releases because none were ever made during the time of Rough Trade. I do not believe the intent of the maker of these records was to fool people into believing they were long lost rarities from the RT era, thus demanding heavy sums. The reasonable asking price of these items reinforce my theory.
People are leveling very serious accusations against well-established rarities sellers without one iota of evidence.
A couple years ago I was the only person to sell Dutch Headmaster Ritual 7"s with the 12" cowboy kids sleeve. Hitherto unseen by anyone. Does this mean I was selling counterfeits? Of course not. I know for an absolute fact that a Morrissey Madness source for its top rarities is from the same source I received mine from; an unimpeachable source. If I did some asking around, I'm sure I would learn that these November The Second 12"s came from the same source I have received scores of top rarities from.
If you could provide me a link to an auction where someone is selling 10 of the same test pressing, or a test pressing which you have any evidence is not authentic, I'd welcome it. Until any evidence is provided, I'll just take these types of posts for what they really are; uncorroborated paranoid musings by uninformed neophytes. Which may sound a bit harsh, but that's the truth as I see it.
It is my opinion that no collector would confuse the picture discs or colored vinyls as original Rough Trade releases because none were ever made during the time of Rough Trade. I do not believe the intent of the maker of these records was to fool people into believing they were long lost rarities from the RT era, thus demanding heavy sums. The reasonable asking price of these items reinforce my theory.
People are leveling very serious accusations against well-established rarities sellers without one iota of evidence.
A couple years ago I was the only person to sell Dutch Headmaster Ritual 7"s with the 12" cowboy kids sleeve. Hitherto unseen by anyone. Does this mean I was selling counterfeits? Of course not. I know for an absolute fact that a Morrissey Madness source for its top rarities is from the same source I received mine from; an unimpeachable source. If I did some asking around, I'm sure I would learn that these November The Second 12"s came from the same source I have received scores of top rarities from.
If you could provide me a link to an auction where someone is selling 10 of the same test pressing, or a test pressing which you have any evidence is not authentic, I'd welcome it. Until any evidence is provided, I'll just take these types of posts for what they really are; uncorroborated paranoid musings by uninformed neophytes. Which may sound a bit harsh, but that's the truth as I see it.
robert
Same old suit since 1962
But by passing them off as RT issued, they are counterfieting a legitimate product. Ok, they're not replicating exactly an existing vauluable, and they may not be trying to break the bank with these releases, but still making a health sum (20 GBP/each) for their efforts. There certainly is confusion when they appear on the market, unseen before, and I'm sure people are buying them up on the off-chance that they're newfound rarities. I know I almost did.
I just think it's going out on a limb to say there haven't been counterfiets when there clearly have been. The November2 testpressings I don't think have ever been legitimized. EIL claims only 1 copy survived, and they have it....but there's still the copy on morrisseymadness, right?
Look at the CD-R promo for "live at Earl's Court" that X posted "post pictures of your collection" thread. I have the same one...it's a stickered CD-R with a computer printed tracklisting. I bought it as a rarity but would stake my collection that it was probably made on somebody's home PC. For other bands that I collect, there have been rumored fake Hibtone R.E.M. "Radio Free Europe" singles for years, and you sure see a lot of them around for what was supposed to be a run of 1000 copies.
So I think I agree w/ you that there aren't any mass-produced Smiths knockoffs but I think it's naive to say that hasn't happened on a small scale.
burnedmind
member
The only one I know of that I know is legit is the on at Morrissey Madness...
I was in coraspondance with a person from EMI and they said he had the only origional one for sale. The rest are in collectors hands.. But they did tell me people got the track from other sources cd-r's, tapes, etc... and pressed them on vinyl to try to pass them off as the real thing.. and some sound real shotty....
But isn't "The First Lost Lad Under The Sun" LP a fan made vinyl?
beau
Member
If you reread the thread, at no time were CD-Rs mentioned. My musings are about counterfeit records. It would be naive to believe that some dimwit somewhere hasn't tried to pass off a home CD-R as the real thing. But that is hardly the same as salacious and slanderous statements like EIL and/or Morrissey Madness are selling counterfeit test pressings of vinyl.
burnedmind, you say an EMI employee said his only copy was the only one for sale; the others were in hands of collectors. Collectors are indeed allowed to sell items, and if they did, would it not be plausible that they sell it to either of the two highest profile peddlers of all things Moz? Saying one has the lone copy does make for a good story, though. Which was probably their intention. I would simply chalk it up to a salesman talking up his wares to increase interest or price. It would be naive for any person to say concretely how many of any particular item there is. Surely they didn't stand guard at the pressing plant at all times.
robert said:
A colored vinyl or picture disc of the RT titles mentioned were never a legitimate product to begin with. So how could they be counterfeit of something that never existed? Newfound rarities? In bulk on eBay? Surely you jest. I saw a half dozen of these things (the colored vinyls) sitting in a record store in San Francisco for $18 each and never had any other thought than they were simply a bootlegger getting creative.
Again, nothing more than speculation and conjuecture from my two contemporaries.
burnedmind
member
I didn't mention they were selling cd-r's... Just that they got the track off a cd-r, tape etc.. and pressed it to vinyl to sell.. The source at EMI had one and sold to Mike. The other went to collectors that will not part with the item which I know for a fact...
Remember the guy that bought The Smiths reel to reel show with "I Want A Boy For My Birthday". Heard from him lately???
Remember the guy that bought The Smiths reel to reel show with "I Want A Boy For My Birthday". Heard from him lately???
beau
Member
You'll see that the CD-R comment was directed towards Robert.
"The guy that bought The Smiths reel to reel show" is a friend of mine whom I have had the pleasure of driving around San Francisco.
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burnedmind
member
I wasn't trying to start a fuss... I was just trying to understand...
sorry for the miss understanding....
sorry for the miss understanding....
like lovers do
Member
"uncorroborated paranoid musings by uninformed neophytes. Which may sound a bit harsh, but that's the truth as I see it."
........... I saw strange things happened in records buisness........... it's why i said you must be very sure about your source when you're about to pay something a bit expensive
........... I saw strange things happened in records buisness........... it's why i said you must be very sure about your source when you're about to pay something a bit expensive
MOZZERBLONDE
New Member
Hello All
Right once and for all lets put this to bed about the November second and bootleg forms of it. The reason i had a copy showing on my site (Morrissey Madness) and eil had one is because i wanted them to try and sell it on my behalf which they did and on odd occasions even today sell the artwork sleeves and have even bought said items from me. So now you all know now that it was one and the same record advertised by 2 different sellers.Im with beau on this one i've never come across a counterfeit smiths record EVER
Mike Morrissey Madness
Right once and for all lets put this to bed about the November second and bootleg forms of it. The reason i had a copy showing on my site (Morrissey Madness) and eil had one is because i wanted them to try and sell it on my behalf which they did and on odd occasions even today sell the artwork sleeves and have even bought said items from me. So now you all know now that it was one and the same record advertised by 2 different sellers.Im with beau on this one i've never come across a counterfeit smiths record EVER
Mike Morrissey Madness
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