The two greatest lyricists Morrissey and Bob Dylan, discuss

Just my personal opinion, but I could never really get into Dylan. I enjoy certain songs of his, but they never spoke to me on a deeply personal level.

However, since many have mentioned Cohen as a comparision, I have to mention a similiar artist - for me, the only one who keeps up to Moz is Nick Cave. To me, he is the only one who captures depression and the negative sides of love in such a relatable and beautiful way. They both have a very individual but similiar way of capturing their personal struggles in their lyrics and they both speak to me on such a personal level that it's almost scary.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Just my personal opinion, but I could never really get into Dylan. I enjoy certain songs of his, but they never spoke to me on a deeply personal level.

However, since many have mentioned Cohen as a comparision, I have to mention a similiar artist - for me, the only one who keeps up to Moz is Nick Cave. To me, he is the only one who captures depression and the negative sides of love in such a relatable and beautiful way. They both have a very individual but similiar way of capturing their personal struggles in their lyrics and they both speak to me on such a personal level that it's almost scary.

If you like some of Dylan's songs, go back through his albums.

When The Beatles were singing Please, Please, Me and Love Me Do, Dylan was singing Masters of War.

 

Ketamine Sun

HANG THEM HIGH VERONICA
Bob dylan is unquestionably a better lyricist,over the years his range is incredible taking in folk,county,rock n roll and gospel.Bob Dylan is one of those people I immediately buy their music as I believe every thing they do has merit.Of course Morrissey is another favourite of mine as well as Paul Weller, Neil Young,Tom Waits and many more.


Of course folks can post who they enjoy more as lyricists. And who we believe is better is of course subjective. All the artists you mention are great in their own right.

Agree, artists like Dylan, etc you can count on with every album that they will do their thing like no other can.

Dylan and Morrissey’s art is so unique, two artists that have, do and will influence many artists, directly or indirectly for ever.

In that way, they are both two of the greatest lyricists.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I don't think art works that way, Ketamine.

Putting Morrissey up there with Dylan is like putting Damien Hirst up there with Picasso.
It's true, trying to put these two on equal footing as far as influence goes is a joke. Lyrical quality is subjective, there are always going to be those who appreciate one thing over another. But speaking of Morrissey and Bob Dylan in the same breath as far as their musical reach is concerned is just ludicrous. A mere three years into his career, Dylan was single-handedly molding new possibilities of the form that would continue to be looked to as the blueprint for decades upon decades to come. While some people in this thread have struggled to conjure up names of artists influenced by Morrissey, they'd be even harder pressed to list the people that haven't been influenced by Dylan.

I actually think Morrissey's lyrics are maybe the least influential thing about him. His aesthetic sensibility (in both the way he looks and what he was doing with the Smiths sleeves) is probably more resonant than his words, oddly enough.
 

crotty32

Active Member
Of course folks can post who they enjoy more as lyricists. And who we believe is better is of course subjective. All the artists you mention are great in their own right.

Agree, artists like Dylan, etc you can count on with every album that they will do their thing like no other can.

Dylan and Morrissey’s art is so unique, two artists that have, do and will influence many artists, directly or indirectly for ever.

In that way, they are both two of the greatest lyricists.
Couldn't agree more,my post neglected to make clear that I love the "uniqueness " of these singers,vocalists,musicians.
 

Gregor Samsa

I straighten up, and my position is one of hope.
I’m with Skylarker. Dylan, to me, is generally too verbose, too obtuse, too abstract. That’s the sole reason I’ve never really been a proper fan. Although I do think he’s great and the amount of respect I have for him can not be overstated. Morrissey I love, of course. Again, like Skylarker said, to the point, funny, honest, direct, hits the nail on the head. At least peak Morrissey, i.e. 1983-2004. Since then he’s been way too uneven, which makes it hard for me to say he’s the greatest of all time.
My candidates, besides Moz, are probably and in no particular order:

Joakim Thåström
Pelle Ossler
Jason Molina
Bruce Springsteen
Ian Curtis
Phil Elverum
Nick Cave
Scott Walker
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I’m with Skylarker. Dylan, to me, is generally too verbose, too obtuse, too abstract. That’s the sole reason I’ve never really been a proper fan. Although I do think he’s great and the amount of respect I have for him can not be overstated. Morrissey I love, of course. Again, like Skylarker said, to the point, funny, honest, direct, hits the nail on the head. At least peak Morrissey, i.e. 1983-2004. Since then he’s been way too uneven, which makes it hard for me to say he’s the greatest of all time.
My candidates, besides Moz, are probably and in no particular order:

Joakim Thåström
Pelle Ossler
Jason Molina
Bruce Springsteen
Ian Curtis
Phil Elverum
Nick Cave
Scott Walker

Springsteen on Dylan

Bob Dylan is the father of my country. Highway 61 Revisited and Bringing It All Back Home were not only great records, but they were the first time I can remember being exposed to a truthful vision of the place I lived. The darkness and light were all there, the veil of illusion and deception ripped aside. He put his boot on the stultifying politeness and daily routine that covered corruption and decay. The world he described was all on view, in my little town, and spread out over the television that beamed into our isolated homes, but it went uncommented on and silently tolerated. He inspired me and gave me hope. He asked the questions everyone else was too frightened to ask, especially to a fifteen-year-old: “How does it feel… to be on your own?” A seismic gap had opened up between generations and you suddenly felt orphaned, abandoned amid the flow of history, your compass spinning, internally homeless. Bob pointed true north and served as a beacon to assist you in making your way through the new wilderness America had become. He planted a flag, wrote the songs, sang the words that were essential to the times, to the emotional and spiritual survival of so many young Americans at that moment.

I had the opportunity to sing “The Times They Are A-Changin’ ” for Bob when he received the Kennedy Center Honors. We were alone together for a brief moment walking down a back stairwell when he thanked me for being there and said, “If there’s anything I can ever do for you…” I thought, “Are you kidding me?” and answered, “It’s already been done.”

 
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Anonymous

Guest
I’m with Skylarker. Dylan, to me, is generally too verbose, too obtuse, too abstract. That’s the sole reason I’ve never really been a proper fan. Although I do think he’s great and the amount of respect I have for him can not be overstated. Morrissey I love, of course. Again, like Skylarker said, to the point, funny, honest, direct, hits the nail on the head. At least peak Morrissey, i.e. 1983-2004. Since then he’s been way too uneven, which makes it hard for me to say he’s the greatest of all time.
My candidates, besides Moz, are probably and in no particular order:

Joakim Thåström
Pelle Ossler
Jason Molina
Bruce Springsteen
Ian Curtis
Phil Elverum
Nick Cave
Scott Walker
Same for me
I'm not into Dylan lyrics but everyone praises him for that, he even won a nobel prize for literature ( yea, many people laughed at it but he still won it)
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Same for me
I'm not into Dylan lyrics but everyone praises him for that, he even won a nobel prize for literature ( yea, many people laughed at it but he still won it)

"The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 was awarded to Bob Dylan "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition."

 

Ketamine Sun

HANG THEM HIGH VERONICA
Just my personal opinion, but I could never really get into Dylan. I enjoy certain songs of his, but they never spoke to me on a deeply personal level.

However, since many have mentioned Cohen as a comparision, I have to mention a similiar artist - for me, the only one who keeps up to Moz is Nick Cave. To me, he is the only one who captures depression and the negative sides of love in such a relatable and beautiful way. They both have a very individual but similiar way of capturing their personal struggles in their lyrics and they both speak to me on such a personal level that it's almost scary.

both Nick and I love this Cohen song in particular ...






Well I stepped into an avalanche
It covered up my soul
When I am not this hunchback that you see
I sleep beneath the golden hill
You who wish to conquer pain
You must learn, learn to serve me well

You strike my side by accident
As you go down for your gold
The cripple here that you clothe and feed
Is neither starved nor cold
He does not ask for your company
Not at the centre, the centre of the world

When I am on a pedestal
You did not raise me there
Your laws do not compel me
To kneel grotesque and bare
I myself am the pedestal
For this ugly hump at which you stare

You who wish to conquer pain
You must learn what makes me kind
The crumbs of love that you offer me
They're the crumbs I've left behind
Your pain is no credential here
It's just the shadow, shadow of my wound

I have begun to long for you
I who have no greed
I have begun to ask for you
I who have no need
You say you've gone away from me
But I can feel you when you breathe

Do not dress in those rags for me
I know you are not poor
And don't love me quite so fiercely now
When you know that you are not sure
It is your turn, beloved
It is your flesh that I wear
 

Ketamine Sun

HANG THEM HIGH VERONICA
I don't think art works that way, Ketamine.

Putting Morrissey up there with Dylan is like putting Damien Hirst up there with Picasso.

Time and place. Dylan and Picasso both came at a time that, talent aside, enabled them to make the impact they did. I’m sure the surrealists and art world would have
had their minds blown if Hirst was
doing his work in the 30’s on.
It's true, trying to put these two on equal footing as far as influence goes is a joke.
Sorry you two have misread and misunderstood my posts and reason for this thread. I’m not and did not put them on ‘equal footing’. They both, due to their unique art have made a unique impact.


from my post #23 page two....

‘1. For the first time in popular music they brought something new to the table that was uniquely theirs.

2. Besides their distinct delivery and maybe also because of their distinct
deliveries and unique presence, their lyric has influenced other lyric writers.’



Lyrical quality is subjective, there are always going to be those who appreciate one thing over another.

But speaking of Morrissey and Bob Dylan in the same breath as far as their musical reach is concerned is just ludicrous.

Time and place, time and place.


A mere three years into his career, Dylan was single-handedly molding new possibilities of the form that would continue to be looked to as the blueprint for decades upon decades to come.
Time and place.

And in their way Morrissey with The Smiths have done the same thing. Music, was changed ever after by them.

While some people in this thread have struggled to conjure up names of artists influenced by Morrissey, they'd be even harder pressed to list the people that haven't been influenced by Dylan.

directly or indirectly, other lyricists have been influenced by both. Any lyric writer will investigate these two artists, that’s if they’re serious about lyric craft. Or they will be influenced by others that have.

I actually think Morrissey's lyrics are maybe the least influential thing about him. His aesthetic sensibility (in both the way he looks and what he was doing with the Smiths sleeves) is probably more resonant than his words, oddly enough.

It’s the whole package I agree. But of course it’s easier to spot if someone is imitating an image and it’s also easier to pull off, not so easy to pull of the writing skill bit.
 
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KillAllHippies

Guest
I agree completely about Dylan and Morrissey, although I would also add Leonard Cohen, Phil Ochs, Stuart Murdoch, and Warren Zevon to the list. I actually think Ochs was a better lyricist than Dylan, which is saying a lot.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Time and place. Dylan and Picasso both came at a time that, talent aside, enabled them to make the impact they did. I’m sure the surrealists and art world would have
had their minds blown if Hirst was
doing his work in the 30’s on.

Sorry you two have misread and misunderstood my posts and reason for this thread. I’m not and did not put them on ‘equal footing’. They both, due to their unique art have made a unique impact.








Time and place, time and place.



Time and place.

And in their way Morrissey with The Smiths have done the same thing. Music, was changed ever after by them.



directly or indirectly, other lyricists have been influenced by both. Any lyric writer will investigate these two artists, that’s if they’re serious about lyric craft. Or they will be influenced by others that have.



It’s the whole package I agree. But of course it’s easier to spot if someone is imitating an image and it’s also easier to pull off, not so easy to pull of the writing skill bit.

Man, you are so full of it.

Your thread title reads, "The two greatest lyricists Morrissey and Bob Dylan, discuss".
 

Ketamine Sun

HANG THEM HIGH VERONICA
Man, you are so full of it.

Your thread title reads, "The two greatest lyricists Morrissey and Bob Dylan, discuss".


Aw, don’t be upset because you’re wrong.

I see. You just read the title and got triggered. Lol.
 

The Wild Turkey

Wild T!
Turkerator
Bob and Moz are my favorites.
Bob Dylan said he considers Smokey Robinson
to be the best.
Not sure who Moz considers the best.
Moz might say himself or maybe he might
say David Johansen.
 
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