The Smiths abortive attempt to continue (1987)

[Crisstti]

He did have legal grounds because 'The Smiths' was Morrissey and him, they co-signed the contracts. In October 1987, Johnny dissolved Morrissey & Marr Songs Ltd (their publishing company) and changed his publishing to Marr Songs Ltd which it still is.

Yeah that's a good point. What's the effect of him leaving, though? Wouldn't that mean now the Smiths was only Morrissey? This kind of thing has resulted in lengthy trials with other bands.

And that judge later on considered The Smiths was all four of them.

 

[Anonymous]

But then it ended and the friendship died. Morrissey and Johnny had become embittered by the trauma of the band's break up and nothing would be the same, or as good, ever again.

That is one way of looking at it. On a more positive note, both of them got the freedom too enjoy doing whatever they wanted, and despite the trauma and regrets were probably ultimately happier going their own way. Moz could go forward with 100% creative control over every aspect of his career, and Johnny could run around having fun playing with whoever he wanted.

'I want the freedom, and I want the guile...', as the old song goes.

 

[Gray Fruit]

No I think Tony Wilson's hold over Vini's stopped any further working together. I seem to remember SS wanted to be on stage at Wolverhampton but Moz said no.

Tony Wilson was managing Vini and was trying to get more money for Vini. I think he only made £800 for Viva Hate and Morrissey said no to more money for Vini. I think another self-sabotaging mistake.

 

[Anonymous]

‘John Peel radio session circa November 1987Morrissey went into the Maida Vale studios to record a 4-song session for John Peel's programme, but it was never completed nor broadcast. Very little is known about the sessions, besides the fact that it included "Suedehead" and "Margaret On The Guillotine".

Margaret On The Guillotine

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Morrissey complained about the way he was treated by the BBC session's producer/engineer, and that he was so upset he couldn't sing. I've always wondered if that meant he didn't like the way his voice sounded, or if they never got further than recording the musical backing before he walked out. It's tantalizing to think that this recording might exist somewhere, but there's been no hint of it surfacing yet. The session was apparently pulled at Morrissey's request, so it's quite possible any recordings were wiped/binned.

 

[Gray Fruit]

He did have legal grounds because 'The Smiths' was Morrissey and him, they co-signed the contracts. In October 1987, Johnny dissolved Morrissey & Marr Songs Ltd (their publishing company) and changed his publishing to Marr Songs Ltd which it still is.

This legal move right here tells me Johnny had made up his mind early on that he was never going back. This was just weeks after Strangeways was released. To me it shows, it was thought through, not temporary to have that legal break as well.

 

[JerryCan]

I think another self-sabotaging mistake.

Yes, I think M didn't want any ties to Tony Wilson. He was never going to forgive him for dismissing his chances years before.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Yes, I think M didn't want any ties to Tony Wilson. He was never going to forgive him for dismissing his chances years before.

Thinking if Tony didn’t continually try to belittle Morrissey by referring to him as ‘Steven’, maybe we would have gotten to hear some co-writes with Vini. Morrissey is a fan of Vini’s playing, and seemed to really enjoy Vini’s company during the Viva sessions, so I can only see Tony as the one that made it impossible for Morrissey to continue working with Reilly. That’s not to say, Tony wasn’t trying to do the best for his client. Because he did care for Vini. But Tony claims it was a money issue, I think it was a relationship issue.
M and Tony just never got along.

But also, it’s unfortunate we only have Tony’s side of the story on what supposedly happened.

 

[Anonymous]

But Tony claims it was a money issue, I think it was a relationship issue.

More likely to be Morrissey being a penny-pinching tight-arse. This is the same guy who let Stephen Street go a short time later, as he wasn't willing to pay him production royalties.

 

[A Barnett]

In Johnny's interview with Danny Kelly in NME (August 87) , he made mention that The Smiths name was "tied up in whole load of legal things" (paraphrased).
Think it is well documented that Morrissey was having issues around this time - he mentions the anti depressant he was on in Autobiography - and also his behaviour at the B side recordings for Girlfriend are seemingly out of character (drunk etc).
I think Moz could not come to terms that the band were breaking up.
They should have gone on hiatus as The smiths - Moz could have done Viva Hate - JM could have done what he wanted musically.
They could then have come back refreshed ; instead we lost the best band ever.
I won't share you indeed

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

More likely to be Morrissey being a penny-pinching tight-arse. This is the same guy who let Stephen Street go a short time later, as he wasn't willing to pay him production royalties.

Nah.

M and Tony just never got along.

Case closed.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

 

[Mimi Ramone]

this thread makes me sad.

Me too...their little last dance to "Hand in Glove" at the end. Yeah, "I probably never see you again"

 

[Mimi Ramone]

When I say power play, I mean something like this.
Johnny gets fed up of various issues and does a disappearing act - not really sure of the 'big plan', just wanting to ruffle the others a bit because they're not taking him seriously. Gives them the cold shoulder, makes Moz sweat a bit and contemplate his sins. He did not intend to leave permanently until the NME situation provoked him (so he says).
In the interval, Moz gets tired of the cold shoulder and paranoid about JM's intentions and decides to flex his own muscles - 'right, we're done with waiting, have this!' - probably hoping to provoke Johnny to come to his senses.
End result - both hurt each other pointlessly and stupidly, due to nothing more than ego, paranoia and an inability to talk it out like adults. And the worst of it is that they've never grown up, they're just the same now!

Yes, very true. It's sad but also tragically funny and telling that the signs of that dynamic are still evident up to today with the Open Letter and Johnny's reaction to it. Sometimes I'd like to think that they made up a long time ago and keep up this charade to have a peaceful and not public friendship. But that's a story for a parallel universe I guess

 

[js138]

When I say power play, I mean something like this.
Johnny gets fed up of various issues and does a disappearing act - not really sure of the 'big plan', just wanting to ruffle the others a bit because they're not taking him seriously. Gives them the cold shoulder, makes Moz sweat a bit and contemplate his sins. He did not intend to leave permanently until the NME situation provoked him (so he says).
In the interval, Moz gets tired of the cold shoulder and paranoid about JM's intentions and decides to flex his own muscles - 'right, we're done with waiting, have this!' - probably hoping to provoke Johnny to come to his senses.
End result - both hurt each other pointlessly and stupidly, due to nothing more than ego, paranoia and an inability to talk it out like adults. And the worst of it is that they've never grown up, they're just the same now!

I can appreciate this well thought out and articulated take and would take comfort in it rather than facing what I feel really happened. After reading Marr's book I got a pretty clear feeling there's definitely some ego there. A lot more than he wants people to know at least (Johnny F'in Marr for instance). Marr had his grievances (work is a 4 letter word) and I am sure Morrissey could be difficult, but ultimately I feel he was gone because he felt he had bigger and better things on the horizon. Did Electronic get #1 because it was really that good? Or was it because two of the biggest popstars of the 80's came together to collaborate on a super group?


I also think playing second fiddle to Morrissey over what was considered "brilliant" about the band didn't sit well with him after a while. I feel a good part of Marr's personality wants people to think he's "cool" and I think Morrissey overshadowed a lot of it. I know this sounds overwhelmingly negative in Marr's direction, but ultimately he abandoned his friends. He overworked himself, didn't speak up, and ultimately abandoned his family at the time with little to no explanation. The notion he would be offended the project he abandoned with no communication, moved on without him is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[Amy]

Yes, very true. It's sad but also tragically funny and telling that the signs of that dynamic are still evident up to today with the Open Letter and Johnny's reaction to it. Sometimes I'd like to think that they made up a long time ago and keep up this charade to have a peaceful and not public friendship. But that's a story for a parallel universe I guess

It is, they're ridiculous.
What I also find sad is that after being 'told off', Johnny has pretty much done what M wanted - gone about his own stuff with Glasto and gigs and this upcoming guitar book, tried not to piss him off any more and had quite a positive response to his projects. Whilst Moz, after accusing him of "clickbait" as though he were the real star, has 'lost' his album, lost half his band, started a war with another label exec, had an embarrassing episode on a plane, cancelled more gigs, etc, etc. And he can't turn around and blame Johnny or the media for that, it was him. Endlessly shits on his own doorstep and then looks around to blame someone else.

 

[js138]

This legal move right here tells me Johnny had made up his mind early on that he was never going back. This was just weeks after Strangeways was released. To me it shows, it was thought through, not temporary to have that legal break as well.

Also another inidcator IMO that he felt he had "bigger and better" things on the horizon.

 

[Muzz]

I can appreciate this well thought out and articulated take and would take comfort in it rather than facing what I feel really happened. After reading Marr's book I got a pretty clear feeling there's definitely some ego there. A lot more than he wants people to know at least (Johnny F'in Marr for instance). Marr had his grievances (work is a 4 letter word) and I am sure Morrissey could be difficult, but ultimately I feel he was gone because he felt he had bigger and better things on the horizon. Did Electronic get #1 because it was really that good? Or was it because two of the biggest popstars of the 80's came together to collaborate on a super group?


I also think playing second fiddle to Morrissey over what was considered "brilliant" about the band didn't sit well with him after a while. I feel a good part of Marr's personality wants people to think he's "cool" and I think Morrissey overshadowed a lot of it. I know this sounds overwhelmingly negative in Marr's direction, but ultimately he abandoned his friends. He overworked himself, didn't speak up, and ultimately abandoned his family at the time with little to no explanation. The notion he would be offended the project he abandoned with no communication, moved on without him is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

Would it sit well with you if you had composed, arranged, produced all the music as well as played brilliant guitar and in articles the press would mention him once along with Andy and Mike as being part of the band? Of course there’s ego, no one gets far in the music biz without one. Morrissey was already firing managers, canceling shows and tours, not showing up for an expensive video shoot. Johnny was only 23 at the end of the Smiths. Who could have coped with all that stress and bother at that age? Johnny made a great choice to disappear into a lot of bands and just play guitar after the Smiths. I see that as a healing process and learning experience for him.

 

[js138]

Would it sit well with you if you had composed, arranged, produced all the music as well as played brilliant guitar and in articles the press would mention him once along with Andy and Mike as being part of the band? Of course there’s ego, no one gets far in the music biz without one. Morrissey was already firing managers, canceling shows and tours, not showing up for an expensive video shoot. Johnny was only 23 at the end of the Smiths. Who could have coped with all that stress and bother at that age? Johnny made a great choice to disappear into a lot of bands and just play guitar after the Smiths. I see that as a healing process and learning experience for him.

A great choice is debatable seeing how nothing he's done since has been widely regarded as brilliant. I am not saying he isn't happy, but one could argue that he peaked at 23.

 

[Gray Fruit]

A great choice is debatable seeing how nothing he's done since has been widely regarded as brilliant. I am not saying he isn't happy, but one could argue that he peaked at 23.

I'd say you don't know much about what Johnny has been doing since the Smiths and probably don't care. He is going to go down in musical history as one of the greatest guitarists that ever lived and that is based on his current live reputation.

 

[Amy]

I can appreciate this well thought out and articulated take and would take comfort in it rather than facing what I feel really happened. After reading Marr's book I got a pretty clear feeling there's definitely some ego there. A lot more than he wants people to know at least (Johnny F'in Marr for instance). Marr had his grievances (work is a 4 letter word) and I am sure Morrissey could be difficult, but ultimately I feel he was gone because he felt he had bigger and better things on the horizon. Did Electronic get #1 because it was really that good? Or was it because two of the biggest popstars of the 80's came together to collaborate on a super group?


I also think playing second fiddle to Morrissey over what was considered "brilliant" about the band didn't sit well with him after a while. I feel a good part of Marr's personality wants people to think he's "cool" and I think Morrissey overshadowed a lot of it. I know this sounds overwhelmingly negative in Marr's direction, but ultimately he abandoned his friends. He overworked himself, didn't speak up, and ultimately abandoned his family at the time with little to no explanation. The notion he would be offended the project he abandoned with no communication, moved on without him is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

Your understanding aligns quite closely with Morrissey's version - he felt that Johnny was surrounded by undesirable friends who wanted to lure him away to greater things. Ultimately though, I don't see much evidence for that. Johnny did try to tell M and the others how tired and stressed he was (the chip shop summit?) - M even recalls this in The Importance... documentary and says "I didn't think he meant it". Then Moz, cluelessly, suggested they go on holiday to France. They just didn't want to hear it, and when people are not listening because they don't want to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs, what can you do?

Johnny's post-Smiths career doesn't fit the bill of someone who was looking for greater things - if anything he shrank away from his legacy and buried himself in other bands like he wanted to hide, he has only really stepped out on his own in the last 10 years. I agree that the power dynamic shifted but I think that is a 'scapegoat issue', it's made into a bigger thing than it was. Ultimately, Johnny hand-picked Morrissey to be the leader, and he's played second fiddle to a lot of lesser lights since then without any complaints. I think the Johnny F-ing Marr thing is JM trying to compensate for those years when people thought he was just wasting himself, he's a man on a mission.