The most disappointing thing about Morrissey...

Your first paragraph ("Thank you for the cliched, prepubescent response. As I supsected, little intellect, and lots of emotion. So, to answer your question, without meeting you face to face, you have essentially proven to be an irrational wacko by supporting the listed quotes above, and calling the human race "a disease.") is not an argument. You're begging the question here. So if you say, essentially, "PETA supporters are wackos because they support the following claims. Anyone who believes the following claims are wackos. PETA supporters believe the following claims, therefore they are wackos." That is a FALLACY called "begging the question." (From wikipedia: "In logic, begging the question is the term for a type of fallacy occurring in deductive reasoning in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises.")

You don't even attempt to explain WHY the beliefs held in the quotes you list should be considered erroneous, fallacious, outrageous, etc. True dialogue about the merits of the PETA philosophy should be rooted in logic and open-minded discussion. YOUR "argument" is equivalent to a playground taunt, complete with name calling ("irrational wacko"). It seems to me that you have no basis to call anyone else immature.

Go take a few classes in philosophy, and then come back here.
 
I love everything PETA does, especially the title. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals—I don’t see how anyone could have a problem with that.
 
what he ment

IMHO, the quote's being wacko is to him exiomatic.
it would be more useful to the thread if you showed and explained how this exioma is sometimes, absurd.
 
> is that he actually supports, and promotes the absolute wackos (PETA).
> Although, I am aware that Morrissey should be taken about as seriously
> when it comes to political matters as Anne Coulter, it's still
> embarassing.

Yeah, it's the same as if I liked some singer who got all involved in some Operation Rescue anti-abortion/Christian fundamentalist group and yapped on in every interview about it. Oh well, you know...at the end of the day...just save the songs and forget the singers.

> Oh, and before the cliches are launched, I once supported PETA. Luckily, I
> grew older, and developed proper rationale. Unfortunately, there are
> others out there that still function at the teenage level when it comes to
> reason, and political matters. This is dedicated to you you.

> Mature people who care about animals support Animal Welfare, immature
> people bent on idenitty politics tend to support fringe groups like PETA.

I couldn't agree with you more.

> For all the talk about how crazy suicide bombers, and the Hale Bop Comet
> cult are, PETA followers are slowly catching up.

I like your comparison to a cult. Exactly right.

As far as the suicide bombers...I don't know if I'd go that far. However, Chrissie Hynde is another pop star who's all into PETA, and she yelled at a concert a couple years ago that we deserve to be attacked by Muslims and she hopes the Muslim-fascist-jihadists win. LOL Oh dear, pop stars and their silliness.....

Thank you for your compilation of quotes. I'm gonna save these!

I also think there's a clear connection between Morrissey's nuttier side and the awful culture on online communities for his fans.

> I am also aware that no matter how many insane proclamations are made by
> groups like PETA, there will be those who will defend them forever. Still,
> if there is at least one person who is on the fence about the subject,
> hopefully some light can be shed on the movement.

> "The following are selected quotes by animal rights leaders
> expressing the often-hidden agenda of their movement. They were compiled
> by the American Animal Welfare Foundation, St. Paul, MN."

> "Animal liberationists do not separate out the human animal, so there
> is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A
> rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They're all mammals."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> As quoted in Vogue, September, 1989

> "The life of an ant and the life of my child should be granted equal
> consideration."
> Michael Fox
> Vice President, HSUS

> "Six million Jews died in concentration camps, but six billion
> broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Post, 1983

> "Humans have grown like cancer. We're the biggest blight on the face
> of the planet."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Reader's Digest, June, 1990

> "I am not a morose person but I would rather not be here. I don't
> have any reverence for life, only for the entities themselves. I would
> rather see a blank space where I am. This will sound like fruitcake stuff
> again, but at least I wouldn't be harming anything."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Post, November 13, 1983

> "Probably everything we do is a publicity stunt...We are not here to
> gather members, to please, to placate, to make friends. We're here to hold
> the radical line."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> USA Today, September 3, 1991

> "Even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we'd be against
> it."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Vogue, September, 1989

> -"Even painless research is fascism, supremacism, because the act of
> confinement is traumatizing in itself."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Magazine, August, 1986

> "It (animal research) is immoral even if it is essential."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Post, May 30, 1989

> "Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought on by human
> manipulation."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Magazine, August 1986

> "One day we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of
> animals. (Dogs) would pursue their natural lives in the wild...They would
> have full lives, not waiting at home for someone to come home in the
> evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> "Where Would We Be Without Animals?, Chicago Daily Herald, March 1,
> 1990

> "...Eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would
> return to a more symbiotic relationship, enjoyment at a distance."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Harpers, August, 1988

> "We feel that animals have the same rights as a retarded human
> child."
> Alex Pacheco
> Chairman, PETA,
> The New York Times, Jan. 14, 1989

> "We have a lazy, sick society. People bring diseases on themselves.
> [People should] avoid getting the disease in the first place."
> Dan Mathews
> PeTA spokesperson
> USA Today, July 27, 1994

> Question to PeTA Outreach Coordinator Susan Rich: "If you were aboard
> a lifeboat with a baby and a dog, and the boat capsized, which would you
> rescue?"
> Rich's answer: "I wouldn't know for sure...I might choose the human
> baby or I might choose the dog."
> Steve Kane Show
> WIOD-AM Radio
> Miami, FL
> Feb, 23, 1989

> "In a perfect world, all other than human animals would be free of
> human interference, dogs and cats would part of the ecological
> scheme."
> PeTA's Statement on Companion Animals

> In response to Animal Liberation Front violence in the Pacific Northwest:
> "We cannot condemn the Animal Liberation Front...they act
> courageously, risking their freedom and their careers to stop the terror
> inflicted every day on animals in the labs. [ALF's activities] comprise an
> important part of today's animal protection movement."
> PeTA statement
> June 19, 1991

> "Homelessness drives me crazy! I take responsibility for everything
> that happens to me. Everyone can pull themselves up. I have more sympathy
> for animals because they don't deserve anything that happens to them.
> They're innocent."
> PeTa member
> "What Becomes a Zealot Most?"
> GQ Magazine
> November 1993

> "The life of an ant and the life of my child should be granted equal
> consideration."
> Michael Fox
> HSUS President
> Inhumane Society
> Fox Publication

> "We're not superior. There are no clear distinctions between us and
> animals."
> Michael Fox
> Washingtonian Magazine
> February 1990

> "Man is the most dangerous, destructive, selfish and unethical animal
> on earth."
> Michael Fox
> The Intellectual Activist
> Sept. 14, 1983

> (Expressing opposition to use of bug sprays) "Only a few of the
> million you kill would have bitten you."
> Michael Fox
> Returning to Eden
> Fox Publication

> "We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of
> livestock produced through selective breeding. ...One generation and out.
> We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are
> creations of human selective breeding."
> Wayne Pacelle
> Animal People
> May 1993

> "If we could shut down all sport hunting in a moment, we would."
> Wayne Pacelle
> formerly of Friends of Animals
> Impassioned Agitator
> Associated Press
> Dec. 30, 1991

> "If abandoning animal research means that there are some things we
> cannot learn, then so be it... We have no basic right...not to be harmed
> by those natural diseases we are heir to."
> Tom Regan
> North Carolina State University
> The Case for Animal Rights, 1983

> "It is not larger, cleaner cages that justice demands...but empty
> cages; not traditional animal agriculture but a complete end to all
> commerce in the flesh of dead animals; not more humane hunting and
> trapping, but the total eradication of these barbarous practices."
> Tom Regan
> North Carolina State University
> The Philosophy of Animal Rights, 1989

> When asked which he would save, a dog or a baby, if a boat capsized in the
> ocean: "If it were a retarded baby and a bright dog, I'd save the
> dog."
> Tom Regan
> North Carolina State University
> Q & A session following speech
> "Animal Rights, Human Wrongs"
> U of Wisconsin-Madison
> Oct. 27, 1989

> "Even granting that we [humans] face greater harm than laboratory
> animals presently endure if research on these animals is stopped, the
> animal rights view will not be satisfied with anything less than total
> abolition."
> Tom Regan
> North Carolina State University
> The Case for Animal Rights, 1983
 
"We f***ing deserve to get bombed. Bring it on."

"Let's get rid of all the economic (expletive) this country represents! Bring it on, I hope the Muslims win!"

-Chrissie Hynde, member of the Pretenders and very active member of PETA

Real sick minds at work amongst that crowd. You'd probably need to be a shrink to work it all out.
 
These comments are not "wacko" at all, they are moral and are not opinions, but thoughts with which we all should share.
To claim to have positive views on animal rights and to say 'but not that strong' is worse than having an opinion at all.
A life is a life and how that life is lived, more importantly, how it is ALLOWED to be lived is of the most importance.
Life is a term, not specified to humans.
I just wish I was not a hypocrite, but unfortunately unlike animals with natural innocence..I am human and naturally feel I have the rights to this planet.
I applaud all members of PETA and their quotes and courage to speak them without the slightest hint of hesitation.
They are living, as is Morrissey and his support of these quotes and values.
I wish I where that alive, you should too.
 
i am a vegetarian and i believe animal cruelty and eating meat is very wrong, i support PETAs ideas, however i believe sometimes they cross the line, hence talking about the holocaust (which i take personally as my grandpa was a Jewish soldier in the war, i am not jewish though)
I also disagree when they send death threats or harm people, two wrongs really make your cause seem pathetic
 
is that he's not my next door neighbour, and I can't drop in for a cuppa and a chat every now and then.
 
> i am a vegetarian and i believe animal cruelty and eating meat is very
> wrong, i support PETAs ideas, however i believe sometimes they cross the
> line, hence talking about the holocaust (which i take personally as my
> grandpa was a Jewish soldier in the war, i am not jewish though)
> I also disagree when they send death threats or harm people, two wrongs
> really make your cause seem pathetic

Well my Grandpa nor Grandma was Jewish so it means nothing to me.

As for the death threats on those that torture those that can't defend themselves, well that SPEAKS for itself really.

At least the Jews had a VOICE, or did they?
 
> Well my Grandpa nor Grandma was Jewish so it means nothing to me.

> As for the death threats on those that torture those that can't defend
> themselves, well that SPEAKS for itself really.

> At least the Jews had a VOICE, or did they?

no mate, the Jews didn't have a voice, they were brutally f***ing tortured and raped before being gassed or beaten to death. I still think animals being murdered is wrong but that is not something to compare it to
 
Very interesting post. And a very well reasoned argument as well. Let me expand on your theme though. First, do not be suprised by Morrissey's support of PETA. Why? Becuase politically Morrissey has very 'elitist' views of society. We are talking about a man who has never worked a f***ing job in his entire life. NEVER. He knows not what its like to be in the working classes, nor does he understand what its like to be insecure either socially or financially. Therefore, people such as Morrissey--tend to gravitate toward fringe political issues with a militant edge because frankly speaking: Morrissey lives in a f***ing utopia. He is free of want. He is adored by millions. He is welathy to the teeth, and is totally detached from reality. Therefore, when he claims to use his celebrity for 'good' its for causes that are basicly bullshit in the overall scheme of things. WHY? becuase morrissey is not advoacting institutional changes to the order of society that would benefit the majority of his 'fans' or humanity in general? He squanders his 'voice' on things like saying 'bush is a bad guy' and 'eating meat is inhumane' but lets face it--thats the extent of his criticisms because he is an eltitist. Thus, his rationale is the following: the world is basicly fine the way it is, except it would be better if people would stop killing animals.
BUT, in reality the world is in total disarray. Those of us who working class or middle class are in deep. deep shit in general. IF and only IF we are going to dedicate our time to 'substantive changes' we would like universal health coverage, or right to employment, or how about a global minimum wage? My point is that Morrissey is so detached from reality that I would expect him to pick PETA and vegetarianism as his 'one issue' to lament about. As far as i am concerned he is nearly invisible politically. Think about it. What the f*** has he done but complain about BUSH, BLAIR, and Animal Rights? At least BONO from U2 is using his star privledge for a real cause. I f***ing hate U2 but man that guy is beating the crap out of people and actually helping remove debt from 3rd world countries.
In summary, dont be suprised if a guy like MOZ supports this shit. HE wants minor tweaks to this shitty system to simply make him happier. Other than that he likes things the way they are. OR else he would have wrote a song called, "war is capitalism" or "sweatshop labor is wrong" or "how about Health Insurance America" etc etc

> is that he actually supports, and promotes the absolute wackos (PETA).
> Although, I am aware that Morrissey should be taken about as seriously
> when it comes to political matters as Anne Coulter, it's still
> embarassing.

> Oh, and before the cliches are launched, I once supported PETA. Luckily, I
> grew older, and developed proper rationale. Unfortunately, there are
> others out there that still function at the teenage level when it comes to
> reason, and political matters. This is dedicated to you you.

> Mature people who care about animals support Animal Welfare, immature
> people bent on idenitty politics tend to support fringe groups like PETA.
> For all the talk about how crazy suicide bombers, and the Hale Bop Comet
> cult are, PETA followers are slowly catching up.

> I am also aware that no matter how many insane proclamations are made by
> groups like PETA, there will be those who will defend them forever. Still,
> if there is at least one person who is on the fence about the subject,
> hopefully some light can be shed on the movement.

> "The following are selected quotes by animal rights leaders
> expressing the often-hidden agenda of their movement. They were compiled
> by the American Animal Welfare Foundation, St. Paul, MN."

> "Animal liberationists do not separate out the human animal, so there
> is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A
> rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They're all mammals."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> As quoted in Vogue, September, 1989

> "The life of an ant and the life of my child should be granted equal
> consideration."
> Michael Fox
> Vice President, HSUS

> "Six million Jews died in concentration camps, but six billion
> broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Post, 1983

> "Humans have grown like cancer. We're the biggest blight on the face
> of the planet."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Reader's Digest, June, 1990

> "I am not a morose person but I would rather not be here. I don't
> have any reverence for life, only for the entities themselves. I would
> rather see a blank space where I am. This will sound like fruitcake stuff
> again, but at least I wouldn't be harming anything."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Post, November 13, 1983

> "Probably everything we do is a publicity stunt...We are not here to
> gather members, to please, to placate, to make friends. We're here to hold
> the radical line."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> USA Today, September 3, 1991

> "Even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we'd be against
> it."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Vogue, September, 1989

> -"Even painless research is fascism, supremacism, because the act of
> confinement is traumatizing in itself."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Magazine, August, 1986

> "It (animal research) is immoral even if it is essential."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Post, May 30, 1989

> "Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought on by human
> manipulation."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Washington Magazine, August 1986

> "One day we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of
> animals. (Dogs) would pursue their natural lives in the wild...They would
> have full lives, not waiting at home for someone to come home in the
> evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> "Where Would We Be Without Animals?, Chicago Daily Herald, March 1,
> 1990

> "...Eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would
> return to a more symbiotic relationship, enjoyment at a distance."
> Ingrid Newkirk
> Founder, PETA
> Harpers, August, 1988

> "We feel that animals have the same rights as a retarded human
> child."
> Alex Pacheco
> Chairman, PETA,
> The New York Times, Jan. 14, 1989

> "We have a lazy, sick society. People bring diseases on themselves.
> [People should] avoid getting the disease in the first place."
> Dan Mathews
> PeTA spokesperson
> USA Today, July 27, 1994

> Question to PeTA Outreach Coordinator Susan Rich: "If you were aboard
> a lifeboat with a baby and a dog, and the boat capsized, which would you
> rescue?"
> Rich's answer: "I wouldn't know for sure...I might choose the human
> baby or I might choose the dog."
> Steve Kane Show
> WIOD-AM Radio
> Miami, FL
> Feb, 23, 1989

> "In a perfect world, all other than human animals would be free of
> human interference, dogs and cats would part of the ecological
> scheme."
> PeTA's Statement on Companion Animals

> In response to Animal Liberation Front violence in the Pacific Northwest:
> "We cannot condemn the Animal Liberation Front...they act
> courageously, risking their freedom and their careers to stop the terror
> inflicted every day on animals in the labs. [ALF's activities] comprise an
> important part of today's animal protection movement."
> PeTA statement
> June 19, 1991

> "Homelessness drives me crazy! I take responsibility for everything
> that happens to me. Everyone can pull themselves up. I have more sympathy
> for animals because they don't deserve anything that happens to them.
> They're innocent."
> PeTa member
> "What Becomes a Zealot Most?"
> GQ Magazine
> November 1993

> "The life of an ant and the life of my child should be granted equal
> consideration."
> Michael Fox
> HSUS President
> Inhumane Society
> Fox Publication

> "We're not superior. There are no clear distinctions between us and
> animals."
> Michael Fox
> Washingtonian Magazine
> February 1990

> "Man is the most dangerous, destructive, selfish and unethical animal
> on earth."
> Michael Fox
> The Intellectual Activist
> Sept. 14, 1983

> (Expressing opposition to use of bug sprays) "Only a few of the
> million you kill would have bitten you."
> Michael Fox
> Returning to Eden
> Fox Publication

> "We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of
> livestock produced through selective breeding. ...One generation and out.
> We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are
> creations of human selective breeding."
> Wayne Pacelle
> Animal People
> May 1993

> "If we could shut down all sport hunting in a moment, we would."
> Wayne Pacelle
> formerly of Friends of Animals
> Impassioned Agitator
> Associated Press
> Dec. 30, 1991

> "If abandoning animal research means that there are some things we
> cannot learn, then so be it... We have no basic right...not to be harmed
> by those natural diseases we are heir to."
> Tom Regan
> North Carolina State University
> The Case for Animal Rights, 1983

> "It is not larger, cleaner cages that justice demands...but empty
> cages; not traditional animal agriculture but a complete end to all
> commerce in the flesh of dead animals; not more humane hunting and
> trapping, but the total eradication of these barbarous practices."
> Tom Regan
> North Carolina State University
> The Philosophy of Animal Rights, 1989

> When asked which he would save, a dog or a baby, if a boat capsized in the
> ocean: "If it were a retarded baby and a bright dog, I'd save the
> dog."
> Tom Regan
> North Carolina State University
> Q & A session following speech
> "Animal Rights, Human Wrongs"
> U of Wisconsin-Madison
> Oct. 27, 1989

> "Even granting that we [humans] face greater harm than laboratory
> animals presently endure if research on these animals is stopped, the
> animal rights view will not be satisfied with anything less than total
> abolition."
> Tom Regan
> North Carolina State University
> The Case for Animal Rights, 1983
 
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