The message of Morrissey's music

[Branwell]

I just don't think there is a comparison with someone like Morrissey who is completely in control of his persona, knows exactly what he wants to convey, and avoids ordinary thought in favour of subversive expression.

Oh no, that's for sure. Michael Jackson never was a poet.
I wouldn't task a comparison between Moz and Michael Jackson, either. They're from different spheres and their mediums and aims differ.

You mean We are the world, Heal the world and so on? That's actually just crap dude. It'd be cute in a ten-year old. In a thirty-something billionaire it's the kind of thing that makes intelligent pop singers try to jump on stage and bash your head in, for the benefit of all.

And you certainly may have a point in that. Nevertheless I wouldn't call it all crap dude, cause it does convey something. Only it's uttered in a very naive and simplistic way - it's for children, and I don't mean to say that in a dismissive way.
I am biased because I revered Jackson when I was a child and believe that it was he who inspired my awareness for nature conservation. That's not too bad a thing.

 

[murder and desire]

Ok.But let me have my opinion.As for people mentioned:I dont like John Lennon,i dont like Dylan and i like Bowie a little.Morrissey is better than all of them anyway.

Well, the trouble with fandom is people often get the subjective mixed up with the objective.

I love Morrissey and Bowie and I like Dylan but I wouldn't call them a Genius.
I would say this though Bowie and maybe Dylan have more of a claim to the genius tag than Moz.

 

[murder and desire]

And I find it really interesting how different a fan of Morrissey and of Michael Jackson respectively is looked upon. An obsessive fan of Michael Jackson is plain crazy whereas a fan of Moz is not.

I don't know moz fans are getting a pretty bad rep.
Smiths fans aren't but Moz fans are.

 

[murder and desire]

True.But only his music moves me.

A train moves me but no one calls British rail a genius.

 

[JoanOfArc]

I would say this though Bowie and maybe Dylan has more of a claim to the genius tag than Moz.

I disagree.Morrissey has the talent and charisma they can only dream about.

 

[JoanOfArc]

A train moves me but no one calls British rail a genius.

hey you can laugh at me if you want,but this is how i feel.

 

[murder and desire]

Exactly. That has probably a lot to do with the common peasant's opinion of Michael. Him being this freak, weirdo, molester etc... Sad really.

"Common peasants Opinion", what a lovely world view you have.
Jackson was only of any worth (in a pop culture sense) with his first two lps-Off the Wall and Thriller.
Anyone who thinks he was any good from Bad onwards is a tad silly and has a severe lack of taste.
Why anyone would compare Jacko with Moz is madness. I think you would have to be pretty dim to think they hang around in the same shopping line.

The reason people think MJ was bonkers is because he was, all that plastic surgery, hanging around with kids- the amount of money he paid out to the kids with stories is huge, if there was nothing to hide why pay out?
Then there is neverland, a retreat for someone who lives in a fantasy world.
It was sad that he died the way he did and he left some nice songs but he was just in the singing and dancing racket, he didn't deal in the poetic or the real (whatever that is).

 

[murder and desire]

hey you can laugh at me if you want,but this is how i feel.

I wasn't laughing at you.
I know what you mean and I feel the same to a degree I think Morrissey is a true talent.
In terms of his art form he is a master and in that sense he is a genius ( I just think the term genius has been watered down).

It is certainly true, and like them or loath them, that he hasn't had the impact of Dylan,Lennon or Bowie.
I tend to think Dylan is over rated and am not much a fan of his music, that said he truly changed music and his book has been a critical success.
Morrissey can write but I doubt his book will have the same impact.

 

[JoanOfArc]

I wasn't laughing at you.
I know what you mean and I feel the same to a degree I think Morrissey is a true talent.
In terms of his art form he is a master and in that sense he is a genius ( I just think the term genius has been watered down).

It is certainly true, and like them or loath them, that he hasn't had the impact of Dylan,Lennon or Bowie.
I tend to think Dylan is over rated and am not much a fan of his music, that said he truly changed music and his book has been a critical success.
Morrissey can write but I doubt his book will have the same impact.

What?!Morrissey book is one of the most anticipated books!People have been waiting for this book for years!!!I dislike Dylan and his mumbling,he is so overrated,and so is David Bowie.As for John Lennon he was just an average songwriter,and if it wasnt for his tragic death nobody would care now- see: Paul McCartney.Morrissey's music is timeless,is still alive,is cool-young people listen to his music,getting tattoos done.Show me Paul McCartney tattoo!haha

 

[murder and desire]

What?!Morrissey book is one of the most anticipated books!People have been waiting for this book for years!!!I dislike Dylan and his mumbling,he is so overrated,and so is David Bowie.As for John Lennon he was just an average songwriter,and if it wasnt for his tragic death nobody would care now- see: Paul McCartney.Morrissey's music is timeless,is still alive,is cool-young people listen to his music,getting tattoos done.Show me Paul McCartney tattoo!haha

You are being silly now,
you seem unable to see beyond your fan worship. As I say I am not a Dylan fan but I bet you all the tea shops in Essex that his book will not sell as well as Dylans or be as critically acclaimed.
Morrissey's main trouble is he is lazy. I don't think (and I love them) that his last few LPs have been that good in a word based sense.
I can only hope that his new book has more writing merit than his early "fan" books they were simply lackluster, it's hard to think that the mind that wrote those also wrote suffer little children
I am not much a fan of the fabs but they achieved a lot and everything has it's place in time.
As for Bowie, he has been a massive influence on lots and lots of artists and is still the standard to beat, he moved things forward in a breath taking way. Nobody has since kicked the pop scene around in quite the same way.
Even Morrissey can't help but still love him, for every bitchy attack (because Bowie won't talk to Moz anymore) there is respect given.
Bowie threw himself at his art and at life in a way most artist dare not. He came out of his depression,drugs troubles and managed to bring up his kid- who has done quite well thank you very much.
Morrissey in contrast, is a happier and richer version of his teenage self and seems less well rounded as a human being and certainly more childish (he knows it too)
As a person I am closer to a Morrissey type than a Bowie type but I would rather be more like Bowie

As for tattoos Morrissey fans didn't event that trend, people had been getting tats of Elvis,Dylan,Bowie and others for years.
I suggest you widen your landscape (i mean that in a nice way)


Side note- Bowie's kid has done a lot and tried not to link himself with his dad, as he makes his way in life.
Morrissey's nephews can't make the same noble claims, Noise is the best revenge make Gene look like the worlds most original band.
Then there is the other one whom has his uncles words on his faceache page.
They are hardly treading new ground

 

[Gregor Samsa]

What are you guys discussing here? The message or the fact that Mozzer's a genius?

 

[murder and desire]

What are you guys discussing here? The message or the fact that Mozzer's a genius?

Ones door leads on to the next but we have gone off topic some what.
Nice pic by the way, I miss Ken

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Ones door leads on to the next but we have gone off topic some what.
Nice pic by the way, I miss Ken

Indeed we (you?) have.

Yeah, he was great. Want to read that new book on him...

To me; Moz' message is one of life and living. More precisely a life lived on the outskirts of common society. Where one struggles to keep ones head above the waterline, struggling to fit in, find a place of ones own, but not always being very succesful at it. Searching for love, yet knowing that finding it might not solve anything. You're still you, still fighting yourself.
But ultimately it's about life and trying to live and get along, despite it being a pigsty...

 

[murder and desire]

Indeed we (you?) have.

Yeah, he was great. Want to read that new book on him...

To me; Moz' message is one of life and living. More precisely a life lived on the outskirts of common society. Where one struggles to keep ones head above the waterline, struggling to fit in, find a place of ones own, but not always being very succesful at it. Searching for love, yet knowing that finding it might not solve anything. You're still you, still fighting yourself.
But ultimately it's about life and trying to live and get along, despite it being a pigsty...

Yes, this be true

 

[JoanOfArc]

You are being silly now,
you seem unable to see beyond your fan worship. As I say I am not a Dylan fan but I bet you all the tea shops in Essex that his book will not sell as well as Dylans or be as critically acclaimed.
Morrissey's main trouble is he is lazy. I don't think (and I love them) that his last few LPs have been that good in a word based sense.
I can only hope that his new book has more writing merit than his early "fan" books they were simply lackluster, it's hard to think that the mind that wrote those also wrote suffer little children
I am not much a fan of the fabs but they achieved a lot and everything has it's place in time.
As for Bowie, he has been a massive influence on lots and lots of artists and is still the standard to beat, he moved things forward in a breath taking way. Nobody has since kicked the pop scene around in quite the same way.
Even Morrissey can't help but still love him, for every bitchy attack (because Bowie won't talk to Moz anymore) there is respect given.
Bowie threw himself at his art and at life in a way most artist dare not. He came out of his depression,drugs troubles and managed to bring up his kid- who has done quite well thank you very much.
Morrissey in contrast, is a happier and richer version of his teenage self and seems less well rounded as a human being and certainly more childish (he knows it too)
As a person I am closer to a Morrissey type than a Bowie type but I would rather be more like Bowie

As for tattoos Morrissey fans didn't event that trend, people had been getting tats of Elvis,Dylan,Bowie and others for years.
I suggest you widen your landscape (i mean that in a nice way)


Side note- Bowie's kid has done a lot and tried not to link himself with his dad, as he makes his way in life.
Morrissey's nephews can't make the same noble claims, Noise is the best revenge make Gene look like the worlds most original band.
Then there is the other one whom has his uncles words on his faceache page.
They are hardly treading new ground

"you seem unable to see beyond your fan worship"-this may be true a bit,but i just love Morrissey.As for David Bowie,i like him a little,i didnt know those things about him,i will have to listen to his music and read about him more.Its quite sad that he doesnt speak to Morrissey -but i think he is probably jealous.I think the only problem that Morrissey has is not being"lazy",but all this jealousy that surrounds him.(this is the reason he didnt get all those awards).People are just jealous of him,trying to prove they are better,outdo him-e.g."poet"ArmitageIt makes me so angry!I like Russell Brand way-he seems sincere.

 

[death below the stairs]

"you seem unable to see beyond your fan worship"-this

 

[murder and desire]

"you seem unable to see beyond your fan worship"-this may be true a bit,but i just love Morrissey.As for David Bowie,i like him a little,i didn't know those things about him,i will have to listen to his music and read about him more.Its quite sad that he doesnt speak to Morrissey -but i think he is probably jealous.I think the only problem that Morrissey has is not being"lazy",but all this jealousy that surrounds him.(this is the reason he didnt get all those awards).People are just jealous of him,trying to prove they are better,outdo him-e.g."poet"ArmitageIt makes me so angry!I like Russell Brand way-he seems sincere.

Yes there is a lot of jealousy aimed at Morrissey, the reason he and Bowie haven't spoken is because Morrissey left the Bowie tour in the 90's, then years later Morrissey started making catty remarks. Bowie would never be jealous of Morrissey
It should be noted that Bowie has never taken the bait and couldn't care less what Morrissey thinks he has a family and a number of other artistic ventures to be getting on with ( although he has been rather ill of late).
If you are going to get into Bowie I suggest the following-
The London years (late 60s) right through to Lets Dance (80s),
Have a week off and start again on around Heathen- there are a number of good singles in between this time (esp Jump they say).
My Fave Bowie Lps are still The Man who Sold The World, Aladdin sane and Low.
Mr Brand is a true fan, though he has always had a limited idea of Morrissey and even though he now knows him, still continues to have a limited understanding of him.
Plus he is one of those whom will like something just because Morrissey does- by all means check out your heros influences but don't like them just because they do.
I can remember him being horrid about Alan Bennett, then once Morrissey had a word with him he started using Bennetts name every other Tuesday.
Still, I agree with your general point about Brand and he has been good for Moz. He certainly did a lot of Moz PR.
Brand can also be very funny, which I expect helps if you are in the comedy lark.
There are certain people I could mention, one Manchester no mark whom I will call C. Everrat, for instance who are extremely dishonest. This Everrat looks nothing like Moz, he has the face of a wimpy waiter with a mouth that looks like it has been punched too much, yet he still wears a quiff and James Dean t shirt and it seems he can't leave the house with out a list of Moz reference points in his pocket.
The person i have mentioned will divulge the name of an influence (always one Morrissey has mentioned himself) at the drop of a stitch. Yet when it comes to Morrissey there is never a mention, this I feel is when Fandom takes a darker turn- There are a number of people who do have the same influences as Morrissey and talk in a similar way etc, some are Moz fans some aren't but you can tell when a person is being natural or when they faking
Its as if people of this ilk want to suck all they can from Moz and then lock him in a draw and never mention his name again (they know that if they do, they will be reveled for the shallow copyists they are).
It's said copying is a form of flattery and it is but it's also a way of trying to steal someone's glory for your self

 

[JoanOfArc]

Yes there is a lot of jealousy aimed at Morrissey, the reason he and Bowie haven't spoken is because Morrissey left the Bowie tour in the 90's, then years later Morrissey started making catty remarks. Bowie would never be jealous of Morrissey
It should be noted that Bowie has never taken the bait and couldn't care less what Morrissey thinks he has a family and a number of other artistic ventures to be getting on with ( although he has been rather ill of late).
If you are going to get into Bowie I suggest the following-
The London years (late 60s) right through to Lets Dance (80s),
Have a week off and start again on around Heathen- there are a number of good singles in between this time (esp Jump they say).
My Fave Bowie Lps are still The Man who Sold The World, Aladdin sane and Low.
Mr Brand is a true fan, though he has always had a limited idea of Morrissey and even though he now knows him, still continues to have a limited understanding of him.
Plus he is one of those whom will like something just because Morrissey does- by all means check out your heros influences but don't like them just because they do.
I can remember him being horrid about Alan Bennett, then once Morrissey had a word with him he started using Bennetts name every other Tuesday.
Still, I agree with your general point about Brand and he has been good for Moz. He certainly did a lot of Moz PR.
Brand can also be very funny, which I expect helps if you are in the comedy lark.
There are certain people I could mention, one Manchester no mark whom I will call C. Everrat, for instance who are extremely dishonest. This Everrat looks nothing like Moz, he has the face of a wimpy waiter with a mouth that looks like it has been punched too much, yet he still wears a quiff and James Dean t shirt and it seems he can't leave the house with out a list of Moz reference points in his pocket.
The person i have mentioned will divulge the name of an influence (always one Morrissey has mentioned himself) at the drop of a stitch. Yet when it comes to Morrissey there is never a mention, this I feel is when Fandom takes a darker turn- There are a number of people who do have the same influences as Morrissey and talk in a similar way etc, some are Moz fans some aren't but you can tell when a person is being natural or when they faking
Its as if people of this ilk want to suck all they can from Moz and then lock him in a draw and never mention his name again (they know that if they do, they will be reveled for the shallow copyists they are).
It's said copying is a form of flattery and it is but it's also a way of trying to steal someone's glory for your self

Yes and this is also very dishonest way, behaving like a thief.Im just suprised that Morrissey is so patient with such idiots.Thanks for the suggestions about Bowie,i will have to try to find it,i dont like music from the computer i never download etc.i plan to check internet auctions to find those records.Why do you think Bowie doesnt care about Morrissey?It sounds quite harsh.

 

[murder and desire]

Yes and this is also very dishonest way, behaving like a thief.Im just suprised that Morrissey is so patient with such idiots.Thanks for the suggestions about Bowie,i will have to try to find it,i dont like music from the computer i never download etc.i plan to check internet auctions to find those records.Why do you think Bowie doesnt care about Morrissey?It sounds quite harsh.

Well, Bowie means more to Morrissey than Morrissey means to Bowie.
I don't mean this in a harsh way.
Its Morrissey who had the pictures of Bowie on this walls and went to his concerts.
It's Bowie who helped shape Morrisseys minds landscape.
Also, Morrissey is rubbish at being rejected, which is why he rejects first.
He holds on to this grudges for years.
Bowie isn't as troubled by such things. Bowie would have seen Moz as a fan with talent who's music he admired, with maybe the start of a friendship but nothing more.
Bowie, also has rolled with the bitchy punches for years, Dylan,Lennon, Lou Reed,Jagger,weller among others have all had a pop at him he just shrugs it off (in the end they have all gone back on their anti Bowie words).
More to the point though, is that Bowie has a wife and kids, he isn't going to concern himself with what Morrissey says-esp when anyone who knows Morrissey well enough will know he doesn't really mean it ( I wouldn't be surprised if he started playing Drive in Saturday, as some sort of lets be friends gesture)

This is my take on it.

 

[JoanOfArc]

Well, Bowie means more to Morrissey than Morrissey means to Bowie.
I don't mean this in a harsh way.
Its Morrissey who had the pictures of Bowie on this walls and went to his concerts.
It's Bowie who helped shape Morrisseys minds landscape.
Also, Morrissey is rubbish at being rejected, which is why he rejects first.
He holds on to this grudges for years.
Bowie isn't as troubled by such things. Bowie would have seen Moz as a fan with talent who's music he admired, with maybe the start of a friendship but nothing more.
Bowie, also has rolled with the bitchy punches for years, Dylan,Lennon, Lou Reed,Jagger,weller among others have all had a pop at him he just shrugs it off (in the end they have all gone back on their anti Bowie words).
More to the point though, is that Bowie has a wife and kids, he isn't going to concern himself with what Morrissey says-esp when anyone who knows Morrissey well enough will know he doesn't really mean it ( I wouldn't be surprised if he started playing Drive in Saturday, as some sort of lets be friends gesture)

This is my take on it.

Well i too hold grudges for years so i understand Morrissey.Why do you think Morrissey rejects people for fear of being rejected?I think its more complicated.And i dont think Morrissey would like to have the same lifestyle as Bowie-a family etc.Maybe Bowie is stronger than Morrissey but its because Morrissey is so sensitive we have this great music.