The God Squad- Religion obsessives and philosophical types unite!

Re: Oh dear

Im impressed and now i suggest you f... off.Thanks in advance.

Yes, I'll follow your suggestion and I'll faith off right now, thank you.

Keep practicing your Christianity.

Have a blessed day my darling.
 
Moreover, beyond all the horrible things religions do, and, admittedly, some, like Tibetan Buddhism, are less destructive than others, they ALL are alike in one respect; they are fundamentally illogical, and antithetical to logical thought. This ALONE is reason enough to oppose religion, beyond all the horrible things we do. To paraphrase Sam Harris, besides killing eachother, the only way of communicating and resolving our differences is conversation, and religion is a conversation stopper. Religion takes people out of the game of reasoned discussion.

While admiring the intelligent clarity of this argument, I can't help suggesting that it is actually human nature that is illogical (which is not necessarily a failing per se), and that religion is far from the only 'conversation stopper' e.g. China's internet ban., social taboos, variably, etc.
 
While admiring the intelligent clarity of this argument,

Awww.. Why, thank you.

I can't help suggesting that it is actually human nature that is illogical

I think human nature gets a bad rap. I also think it gets thrown around too carelessly. I think a lot gets attributed to it that shouldn't be, most of it bad.

(which is not necessarily a failing per se), and that religion is far from the only 'conversation stopper' e.g. China's internet ban., social taboos, variably, etc.

No, it's not the only one, but it's the worst one. Most Chinese citizens can get around the ban, one of the coolest things about the internet is try as they might, despots around the globe haven't been able to control it. So people are able to get uncensored news, or post footage of human rights abuses for all the world to see. Science and technology have really awesome applications as tools for liberation. However, I digress... As I was saying, religion is different. Custom,s and governments are more fluid, but if you believe that the creator of the universe, the one true god has demanded that homosexuals are deviants who should be killed, or that heresy will result in an eternity of torment, that's something different. Inasmuch as they believe it it's totally intractable, because it's not connected to any underlying logic, so you can't really argue against it like sports, or politics. Religion sets itself up as absolute and infallible. That makes it dangerous.
 
Awww.. Why, thank you.



I think human nature gets a bad rap. I also think it gets thrown around too carelessly. I think a lot gets attributed to it that shouldn't be, most of it bad.



No, it's not the only one, but it's the worst one. Most Chinese citizens can get around the ban, one of the coolest things about the internet is try as they might, despots around the globe haven't been able to control it. So people are able to get uncensored news, or post footage of human rights abuses for all the world to see. Science and technology have really awesome applications as tools for liberation. However, I digress... As I was saying, religion is different. Custom,s and governments are more fluid, but if you believe that the creator of the universe, the one true god has demanded that homosexuals are deviants who should be killed, or that heresy will result in an eternity of torment, that's something different. Inasmuch as they believe it it's totally intractable, because it's not connected to any underlying logic, so you can't really argue against it like sports, or politics. Religion sets itself up as absolute and infallible. That makes it dangerous.

In recognition of your courteous level-headedness, nogodnomonsters, something for you - http://carnalnation.com/content/56470/88/buggers-and-f*****s-and-c***s-oh-my .

There's been a big shift in the past 50 years in theories about human thinking, and the 'ideal' or logical man, it turns out, is elusive. Apparently heuristics and biases direct our decisions: prior influences and knowledge by which we make rapid intuitive inferences. One such bias is a strong so-called 'teleo-functional' one which drives us to expect and demand things and people to behave in a certain way which is closely linked to both a naturalistic fallacy, and deontic or moral judgements that can entail calling on reinforcement by a divine order.

Wittgenstein's conclusions on conceptual reasoning divided concepts into two categories.Those that deal with definable objective quantities are intellectual concepts and measurement criteria are relatively easily devised. Those that deal with emotions like betrayal or compassion are called experiential concepts. They are subjective with individual life triggers, and therefore infinite and countless. The only way of organising knowledge of such mental events is through metaphors. Trying to capture them like intellectual concepts gives rise to confusion and error.

This is where religion, myth, art, symbols etc can work better. It also helps to explain why these somewhat illogical latter activities have been practised by human beings through the aeons. Inasmuch as religion has had holocaust-like consequences for certain varying groups of people due to emotional extremes like fear, self-defense (identity-wise), it must have provided fairly consistant imaginative and inclusive sustenance as well. Or else the human race is truly illogical!
 
Why do you ask, do you want to make christmas cards with me?

My cat blesses you too:
CanYouSeeJesus.jpg

Only someone who doesn't believe in God couldn't tell the difference beteween a cat's ass and a dog's ass. :rolleyes: :p

In recognition of your courteous level-headedness, nogodnomonsters, something for you - http://carnalnation.com/content/56470/88/buggers-and-f*****s-and-c***s-oh-my .

There's been a big shift in the past 50 years in theories about human thinking, and the 'ideal' or logical man, it turns out, is elusive. Apparently heuristics and biases direct our decisions: prior influences and knowledge by which we make rapid intuitive inferences. One such bias is a strong so-called 'teleo-functional' one which drives us to expect and demand things and people to behave in a certain way which is closely linked to both a naturalistic fallacy, and deontic or moral judgements that can entail calling on reinforcement by a divine order.

Wittgenstein's conclusions on conceptual reasoning divided concepts into two categories.Those that deal with definable objective quantities are intellectual concepts and measurement criteria are relatively easily devised. Those that deal with emotions like betrayal or compassion are called experiential concepts. They are subjective with individual life triggers, and therefore infinite and countless. The only way of organising knowledge of such mental events is through metaphors. Trying to capture them like intellectual concepts gives rise to confusion and error.

This is where religion, myth, art, symbols etc can work better. It also helps to explain why these somewhat illogical latter activities have been practised by human beings through the aeons. Inasmuch as religion has had holocaust-like consequences for certain varying groups of people due to emotional extremes like fear, self-defense (identity-wise), it must have provided fairly consistant imaginative and inclusive sustenance as well. Or else the human race is truly illogical!

:sweet: Would you like to join my church? You'd be the most intelligent and eloquent parishoner. :D
 
Without the actual belief, it's just a tradition, or a style. What seperates religion is the beliefs.

First of all, the big offenders are the Abrahamic faiths; Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.

Read the books, it's all in there.

1. According to your definition. "Religion" is just a word, it doesn't really mean anything. There are so many different definitions of the word. There is no absolute definition of the word, all definition have their problems.
2. Hmm, that is the typical romantical view that westeners generally have, thinking Buddhism and other asian religions are more peaceful then the abrahamic religions, but when you look at the facts they are just as violent as "western" religions. Take Dalai Lama for example, he is just as conservative as the pope.
3. The books, well there is nothing in them, it's all in the interpretors mind. Naturally a text would not have had the same meaning to an interpretor that read it 2000 years ago as it has to an interpretor that reads it today.

 
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Another short article on religion, once again translated in google translation but I hope anyone who wants to read it can understand!

Buddhism - an upper class religion?

Buddhism in the West has become something of a fashion religion, not least in Hollywood, for example - with the famous proponents like Richard Gere. But it is not just among wealthy Hollywood celebrities as Buddhism but also gain support among people in general. My own experience of Buddhist retreats and courses, however, indicate that among Western Buddhists is an over-representation of intellectuals, materially well-off people with academic background.

Perhaps we need look back to the Buddha himself to understand why Buddhism seems so attractive to this particular group. Unlike other religious founders who came from a modest background, that carpenter Jesus or illiterate Muhammad, Buddha, according to myth grew up as a prince and lived a life of luxury and abundance. Something felt wrong, however, and the Buddha was difficult to find any lasting satisfaction, although he had everything one could wish for. Instead, he looked beyond the palace walls, where he was faced with suffering dilemma that we all get sick, old and eventually die. This became the starting point for his search for the meaning of life and a more lasting peace than temporary sense gratification can offer. It should be mentioned that the Buddha's supporters came mainly from urban areas and belonged köpmannaklassen, although the Buddha's path was open to all.

Perhaps the situation is the same with many people in the west. Many may have felt that the material prosperity does not lead to anything other than lead, restlessness or a feeling of futility. Like Prince Buddha are looking for some kind of deeper meaning or peace of mind than what materialism can offer. To many Western Buddhists tend to be intellectuals or academics, can be explained that Buddhism in the West highlights philosophy, logic and rationalism, which emphasizes the individual's own experience and meditation are highlighted as a path to understanding, not only for monks but for whom any time. These ideals arose in the late 1800s, where the encounter with Christian missionaries in Sri Lanka came to defend Buddhism as a scientific, rational and sensible. A major role in this reformation thought the Theosophical Society with Helena Blavatsky foreground subjects and Colonel Olcott. They became the first two Westerners who converted to Buddhism and gave Buddhism in Sri Lanka's aid. Their influence mark today when it celebrates the annual "Olcott Day".

If you look at the popular Buddhism in the traditionally Buddhist countries, however, sees it differently. Meditation is nothing that lay people are generally engaged in - instead emphasized reliance on the Buddha (as in certain directions can next be seen as a God), rituals, sacrifice and prayer. Here, given the complex philosophy and meditation to professional practitioners as monks and nuns.

Will the Western modernist form of Buddhism to reach a larger audience than academics and will be charged in this case adapted and become more accessible and popular? It remains to be seen ...
 
1. According to your definition. "Religion" is just a word, it doesn't really mean anything. There are so many different definitions of the word. There is no absolute definition of the word, all definition have their problems.


No. From Merriam-Webster:
" re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"

What makes religion religion is a belief in the supernatural, and that said belief is not based on any empirical facts. That's it.

2. Hmm, that is the typical romantical view that westeners generally have, thinking Buddhism and other asian religions are more peaceful then the abrahamic religions, but when you look at the facts they are just as violent as "western" religions. Take Dalai Lama for example, he is just as conservative as the pope.

Definitely not Zen Buddhism. However, despite having an oppressive caste system, Tibetan Buddhists are markedly less violent than the Abrahamic faiths.
If we were to keep a moral scorecard I still think the Dalai Lama would win by a substantial lead.

3. The books, well there is nothing in them, it's all in the interpretors mind. Naturally a text would not have had the same meaning to an interpretor that read it 2000 years ago as it has to an interpretor that reads it today.

That's to say the books don't mean anything at all. No, I think this absolutely false. There are some inevitable cultural differences, but that's relatively minor. Again, take a look at passages like these; "He that does not believeth in me, bring him hither and slay him before me." "...'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." "You must kill those who worship another God." I could go on and on. The meanings are clear. These books are full of bigotry and blatant exhortations to violence. There is nothing of value in them except as historical artifacts.
 
You're as bad as any fundamentalist with your absolute faith.

You need to take up meditation, or yoga or something.

There's no comparison. I 'believe' in a material universe, governed by the four forces, by the laws of thermodynamics, etc. This 'belief', if you want to call it that, is based on empirical evidence and observation. I am just as passionate about my ideas, but that's where the comparison ends. This stuff about 'dogmatic atheism' is just malarky.


Except that when you're challenged you waffle and talk about soft atheism.

I don't need superfluous adjectives. I'm an atheist, plain and simple.

I don't think you have anything useful to say on this subject,

How lovely.


and your recent post about scientists creating life was purposely written to miss the point.

It was written to make a point. The point was that since the dawn of science and reason the mystics and prophets have been steadily losing control, now they just have the big mysteries left, and those are shrinking fast. I, for one, am positively thrilled. As Stephen Hawking recently said;

"What could define God [is thinking of God] as the embodiment of the laws of nature. However, this is not what most people would think of that God,..They made a human-like being with whom one can have a personal relationship. When you look at the vast size of the universe and how insignificant an accidental human life is in it, that seems most impossible. ..There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works." "


I don't trust you because you are advocating a belief system and willfully or not, you mislead to do so.

My belief system is Anarchism, which is a materialist philosophy, but right now I'm strictly talking about religion. I haven't made any fantastical claims here, or required anyone to take any leaps of faith. I offered clear examples. If you disagree with my thesis, you can make a case, but I think the facts are on my side.

You're also a bigot and want people to have no choice but to believe as you (sort of, softly) do.

No, no, no. If I said I hated Jews, I'd be bigoted. It's like the t-shirt; "I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody." I am against religion, period. Moreover, prejudice involves a kneejerk projection of ascribed characteristics without cause. I'm not pre-judging, I'm judging.

You've said you would abolish all religion,

Not exactly. Although, I know you're never going to let this go. What I want is a world without religion. I want religion to cease to exist.


and you've said you were once a believer in fascism.

You're being very tricky. Also, I find it both a little flattering and a little disturbing you remember that. No, what I said was I went through a Leninist phase in high school, then I got my head sorted out and went back to Anarchism. Now, Leninists might sometimes behave in a way that could be called fascist, but fascism and Leninism are not interchangeable.

Why don't you give it a rest. All you do is regurgitate things you've read. You're like a Jehovah's Witness.

Who doesn't? This is really meaningless. Hell, all works of literature, from Shakespeare to Danielle Steele is reducible to like, six or seven basic plots regurgitated and rearranged, ad inifinitum. There is no output without input. I have no shame about being influenced by Nietzsche, Chomsky, Emma Goldman, Che Guevara, etc., etc. Everything from Issac Asimov to Susan Faludi. Gravity isn't an original idea, human rights aren't original ideas, but I'm sticking with them. If you have some alternative formulation, or a philosophical difference, I'm all ears.

Again, this comparison to religion is just false. It's totally baseless.
 
...If you disagree with my thesis, you can make a case, but I think the facts are on my side...

I pray that I am not being unduly presumptious by availing of your kind permission to make a case, through the presentation of the following plea for non-absolutism, if not absolution, in the contemplation of multi-faceted realities:

- Falsifiability is an important concept in science and the philosophy of science. The concept was made popular by Karl Popper, who, in his philosophical analysis of the scientific method, concluded that a hypothesis, proposition, or theory is "scientific" only if it is falsifiable. Popper asserted that unfalsifiable statements are non-scientific, but not of zero importance. For example, meta-physical or religious propositions have cultural or spiritual meaning, and the ancient metaphysical and unfalsifiable idea of the existence of atoms has led to corresponding falsifiable modern theories. A falsifiable theory that has withstood severe scientific testing is said to be corroborated by past experience, though in Popper's view this is not equivalent with confirmation and does not lead to the conclusion that the theory is true or even partially true.

Popper invented the notion of metaphysical research programs to name such ideas. In contrast to positivism, which held that statements are senseless if they cannot be verified or falsified, Popper claimed that falsifiability is merely a special case of the more general notion of criticizability, even though he admitted that refutation is one of the most effective methods by which theories can be criticized. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

You quote Hawking - "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."

Religion is based on desire and a yearning to deal with existential anxieties which consciousness embues on humans. Scientists were nurtured and patronised for millenia in orthodox religious structures to assist in the same endeavour; many were clergymen before the last couple of centuries. The East produced similar minds investigating reality. The Sufi approach to education has always been sufi-sticated. Both science and religion rely on authority of various kinds to promote their messages. Authority is not bad per se; are you not attempting to wield some? Hawking seems to curiously, perhaps superstitiously, ascribe anthropomorphic characteristics of competition to science if he's egging it on to 'win'. Win what? Science is done by people, who, as Popper underscored almost as a dogma, are fallible, and often disagree with each other on methods and results. Religion is correlated strongly with better psycho-social health measures for many practising individuals, though of course has been lethal to others at times. However for similar reasons of pride, ulterior gain, aggressively pushing the power agenda, science does not always work either e.g. the swine flu panic - http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2923981.htm . Meta-values drive both approaches to life and can overlap for better or worse when it comes to decision-making and implementation.

“It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."
- Albert Einstein :yum: :flowers:
 
No. From Merriam-Webster:
[......]

What makes religion religion is a belief in the supernatural, and that said belief is not based on any empirical facts. That's it.

1. That definition is just from an ordinary dictionary and of no real use when you want to study religions scientifically/academically. A word never has a meaning in itself, it only has the meaning which is ascribed to it, obviously since a word can change its meaning over time and mean things. So no, the word religion doesn’t mean a thing. It’s always very important to be precise. If you read an academic thesis you will find that the writer may spend a whole chapter at just defining different words and terms used in the thesis. So you can’t assume that a word has a meaning which is unproblematic and everyone agrees on. Your definition is one definition, my definition is one definition. All definition has their strengths and weaknesses. No definition is right or wrong; one may be more well-founded or more useful then another, but none is right or wrong. And all definitions are problematic.

Definitely not Zen Buddhism. [......]
If we were to keep a moral scorecard I still think the Dalai Lama would win by a substantial lead.

2. Keeping a moral scorecard is not something academics want to do. The purpose of a scientific approach to religion and religious studies is definitely not to make moral judgements. And moral is not a static, unchanging phenomenon. What is moral? Who has the right to decide that? Whatever you talk about, that may sound very clear to us (feminism, human rights etc.) are also just cultural, temporary projections although to us they are very clear. It's all social constructions.
Zen-Buddhism is not just one thing, so when you talk about zen-buddhism, which of all the zen-buddhisms do you mean? Do you mean Chan, which is on of the Chinese versions of what’s called zen in Japan. But since you use the word Zen I assume that you are interested in the Japanese version? Do you mean soto or Renzai? If you are interested in the Japanese version you have to remember that in Japan Buddhism, Shinto and Christianity have lived side by side for a long time and that has resulted in a very complex mixture. Or do you mean the Zen that is popular in the west today, which has been spread much thanks to the diaspora and therefore has been influenced by so many different phenomenons? Which some religious scholars would call a new religious movement. My point is that you have to be very, very precise and not generalize. And when you say that Buddhists are less violent, does that depend on the religion or are there other circumstances that can explain that? And when you say that followers of the abrahamic religions are more violent, is that because of their religion or are there other circumstances that may explain that? When someone does something bad in the name of religion, how can we know the real cause for their action? Is an individual even aware themselves about the “real” cause for their action?


That's to say the books don't mean anything at all. No, I think this absolutely false. There are some inevitable cultural differences, but that's relatively minor. Again, take a look at passages like these; "He that does not believeth in me, bring him hither and slay him before me." "...'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." "You must kill those who worship another God." I could go on and on. The meanings are clear. These books are full of bigotry and blatant exhortations to violence. There is nothing of value in them except as historical artifacts.

3. Each interpreter interprets a text differently. There is no meaning in a text itself. Björn Vikström (he’s a lecturer at Åbo Academy) has written a book about hermeneutics and interpretation skills. At page 107 he writes about Jacques Derrida: Derrida wants to deconstruct all the standards and concepts and to demonstrate that they are time-bound structures, whose emergence may be due to anything from a mere coincidence to a conscious effort to control and manipulate the world. The text of the precise shape is not, nor is its meaning. Vikström also writes at page 21: each interpretation is rooted in and dependent on the interpreters life. The interpretation is, in other words, contextually-colored, i.e. dependent on the social, historical and ideological environment interpreter live in. So a lot of scholars and philosophers wouldn’t agree that a text has a meaning in itself.

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. You picked a classic pericope which a lot of people who argues that homosexuality is a sin would use. Which means it’s a periscope that many, many bible exegetes have made interpretations on. First of all, we have to assume that this pericope possibly could have a different meaning to us today then to someone who read it 2000 years ago. The language has changed over 2000 years and English is not the language that it was originally written in. So we can’t say for sure what it originally was meant by the text. I actually listened to a lecture about this pericope about a year ago, someone who was writing about queer-theology had written an interpretation, but I can’t remember who it was. Anyway, the first thing he said was to read it closely, specially if a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman…..that doesn’t sound odd to you? Because here is a surprise: that is not possible….it’s not possible for a man to “lie with a man as one lies with a woman”, it’s physically impossible! Which people back then definitely knew! They knew that the genitals of a man were different from the genitals of a woman….so they knew that it’s impossible for a man to lie with a man as one lies with a woman! So, the text is actually a bit oddly written. So what do they mean then? To understand the meaning of the pericope one has to understand how people in that time perceived gender. Today we generally see gender as two separate genders; you either are a man or a woman. In antiquity people generally didn’t see the genders as two separate genders but just as variations on a scale. This means that one also could go from being a man to being a woman on a scale; they generally didn’t consider the gender as absolute as we do today. And this affected their view of sex, when a man and a woman had sex it’s not just a physical act; it’s also a power relationship where the woman was the “weaker” part who received and the mean the “stronger” part that gave. The woman, in the sexual act, submitted herself to the man. So sex wasn’t just about a physical act, it was about submitting oneself to someone. With this in mind, "...'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”, may actually have another meaning then what we first think. It’s possible that it’s not the physical act that is referred to; it’s more the act of submitting oneself to someone, or more or less fall on a scale. I’m not saying that this interpretation is perfect, I see many problems with it but it’s still a good example at how we may interpret things wrong if we get anachronistic and project all our own cultural expectations onto texts from different cultures.
 
1. That definition is just from an ordinary dictionary and of no real use when you want to study religions scientifically/academically. A word never has a meaning in itself, it only has the meaning which is ascribed to it, obviously since a word can change its meaning over time and mean things. So no, the word religion doesn’t mean a thing. It’s always very important to be precise. If you read an academic thesis you will find that the writer may spend a whole chapter at just defining different words and terms used in the thesis. So you can’t assume that a word has a meaning which is unproblematic and everyone agrees on. Your definition is one definition, my definition is one definition. All definition has their strengths and weaknesses. No definition is right or wrong; one may be more well-founded or more useful then another, but none is right or wrong. And all definitions are problematic.

Yes, words have multiple meaning and interpretations. However, I know what I meany by it, and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, as well. So, it's really irrelevant.

2. Keeping a moral scorecard is not something academics want to do. The purpose of a scientific approach to religion and religious studies is definitely not to make moral judgements.

First of all, making a moral judgement was part of my whole point. That religion necessitates and perpetuates barbarism and bigotry, which I find objectionable.

And moral is not a static, unchanging phenomenon. What is moral? Who has the right to decide that? Whatever you talk about, that may sound very clear to us (feminism, human rights etc.) are also just cultural, temporary projections although to us they are very clear. It's all social constructions.

I disagree, for the most part. There are differences in social norms, that's a given. However, I don't think slavery was any less monstrous or objectionable when it was considered the norm, just as I think honor killings are a horrifying, primitive form of barbarism, although it is a regular practice in some parts of the world. I have serious problems with this kind of relativism. I don't think even most of the people who espouse it actually believe it. I feel very comfortable saying these behaviors are wrong today, wrong 200 years ago, and wrong next tuesday. I don't feel that this is eurocentrism, or whatever, I think any decent human being should come to the same conclusion.


Zen-Buddhism is not just one thing, so when you talk about zen-buddhism, which of all the zen-buddhisms do you mean? Do you mean Chan, which is on of the Chinese versions of what’s called zen in Japan. But since you use the word Zen I assume that you are interested in the Japanese version?
Do you mean soto or Renzai? If you are interested in the Japanese version you have to remember that in Japan Buddhism, Shinto and Christianity have lived side by side for a long time and that has resulted in a very complex mixture. Or do you mean the Zen that is popular in the west today, which has been spread much thanks to the diaspora and therefore has been influenced by so many different phenomenons? Which some religious scholars would call a new religious movement. My point is that you have to be very, very precise and not generalize.

I meant Japanese Buddhism. Yes, I'm aware Buddhism and Shinto are practiced simultaneously. We need to get back to the objective. I'm not conducting a historical analysis of major religions. It's moderately interesting, and it's important, but not that important. Most of this has little or no bearing on my central point.


And when you say that Buddhists are less violent, does that depend on the religion or are there other circumstances that can explain that?

Tibetan Buddhists, yes, because their ideology has a deeply ingrained pacifism. I think this probably relates to socio-historical factors, but, again, that's going off-topic.

And when you say that followers of the abrahamic religions are more violent, is that because of their religion or are there other circumstances that may explain that? When someone does something bad in the name of religion, how can we know the real cause for their action? Is an individual even aware themselves about the “real” cause for their action?

I think we can know because they say it, and they believe it. Don't get me wrong, I think politics and economics are powerful forces driving the Jihadist movement, however, it's under the banner of religion. The religion gives them license, it justifies it, it promotes it, etc.


3. Each interpreter interprets a text differently. There is no meaning in a text itself. Björn Vikström (he’s a lecturer at Åbo Academy) has written a book about hermeneutics and interpretation skills. At page 107 he writes about Jacques Derrida: Derrida wants to deconstruct all the standards and concepts and to demonstrate that they are time-bound structures, whose emergence may be due to anything from a mere coincidence to a conscious effort to control and manipulate the world. The text of the precise shape is not, nor is its meaning. Vikström also writes at page 21: each interpretation is rooted in and dependent on the interpreters life. The interpretation is, in other words, contextually-colored, i.e. dependent on the social, historical and ideological environment interpreter live in. So a lot of scholars and philosophers wouldn’t agree that a text has a meaning in itself.


I really despise Postmodernism. Some of it is basic truisms, the other nine-tenths is bullshit.

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. You picked a classic pericope which a lot of people who argues that homosexuality is a sin would use. Which means it’s a periscope that many, many bible exegetes have made interpretations on. First of all, we have to assume that this pericope possibly could have a different meaning to us today then to someone who read it 2000 years ago. The language has changed over 2000 years and English is not the language that it was originally written in. So we can’t say for sure what it originally was meant by the text. I actually listened to a lecture about this pericope about a year ago, someone who was writing about queer-theology had written an interpretation, but I can’t remember who it was. Anyway, the first thing he said was to read it closely, specially if a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman…..that doesn’t sound odd to you? Because here is a surprise: that is not possible….it’s not possible for a man to “lie with a man as one lies with a woman”, it’s physically impossible! Which people back then definitely knew! They knew that the genitals of a man were different from the genitals of a woman….so they knew that it’s impossible for a man to lie with a man as one lies with a woman! So, the text is actually a bit oddly written. So what do they mean then? To understand the meaning of the pericope one has to understand how people in that time perceived gender. Today we generally see gender as two separate genders; you either are a man or a woman. In antiquity people generally didn’t see the genders as two separate genders but just as variations on a scale. This means that one also could go from being a man to being a woman on a scale; they generally didn’t consider the gender as absolute as we do today. And this affected their view of sex, when a man and a woman had sex it’s not just a physical act; it’s also a power relationship where the woman was the “weaker” part who received and the mean the “stronger” part that gave. The woman, in the sexual act, submitted herself to the man. So sex wasn’t just about a physical act, it was about submitting oneself to someone. With this in mind, "...'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”, may actually have another meaning then what we first think. It’s possible that it’s not the physical act that is referred to; it’s more the act of submitting oneself to someone, or more or less fall on a scale. I’m not saying that this interpretation is perfect, I see many problems with it but it’s still a good example at how we may interpret things wrong if we get anachronistic and project all our own cultural expectations onto texts from different cultures.

Even if that's a misinterpretation, it's the official policy. The catholic church officially considers homosexuality an abomination, as do a substantial number of Muslims and Jews, especially the religious leaders, most especially the orthodox ones.

Even if you let that slide, what about heresy? That should be fairly cut and dry. The price for heresy is very clearly expressed, over and over. There's no room for debate.

Again, I don't see that as really fundamentally undermining what I was saying. Total certitude in the face of zero evidence is illogical, and illogical thinking is generally bad. Religion does inspire violence and bigotry, and these are not random mutations, but, in fact, taken very directly from the texts themselves, and exemplify a pattern of behavior from around the time the texts were written to today.
 
Yes, words have multiple meaning and interpretations. However, I know what I meany by it, and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, as well. So, it's really irrelevant.

It is not irrelevant, I understood what you meant but I don’t agree. Your definition is ill-founded, superficial, non-academic and not very useful.

First of all, making a moral judgement was part of my whole point. That religion necessitates and perpetuates barbarism and bigotry, which I find objectionable.

You can make how many moral judgements you want, but don’t expect people to consider them to be anything else but your personal opinion which you have created with regards to the social context you live in.

I disagree, for the most part. There are differences in social norms, that's a given. However, I don't think slavery was any less monstrous or objectionable when it was considered the norm, just as I think honor killings are a horrifying, primitive form of barbarism, although it is a regular practice in some parts of the world. I have serious problems with this kind of relativism. I don't think even most of the people who espouse it actually believe it. I feel very comfortable saying these behaviors are wrong today, wrong 200 years ago, and wrong next tuesday. I don't feel that this is eurocentrism, or whatever, I think any decent human being should come to the same conclusion.


Yes, it’s an opinion you are entitled to, and I think that you and I would agree on topics like slavery etc. but I still consider them to be nothing but political correct opinions and values.

I meant Japanese Buddhism. Yes, I'm aware Buddhism and Shinto are practiced simultaneously. We need to get back to the objective. I'm not conducting a historical analysis of major religions. It's moderately interesting, and it's important, but not that important. Most of this has little or no bearing on my central point.


I can tell you are not conducting a historical analysis, since to be able to make statements like yours one has to consider the whole picture and all facts, not just some of the facts which suits ones own interests.

Tibetan Buddhists, yes, because their ideology has a deeply ingrained pacifism. I think this probably relates to socio-historical factors, but, again, that's going off-topic.

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I think we can know because they say it, and they believe it. Don't get me wrong, I think politics and economics are powerful forces driving the Jihadist movement, however, it's under the banner of religion. The religion gives them license, it justifies it, it promotes it, etc.


Nope, it’s not that easy. For example within psychoanalysis it’s assumed that people don’t generally know that much about their real motivations. That’s why the subconscious, dreams etc. are very important. So no, just because someone themselves are very convinced of the motivation behind their actions that doesn’t mean that that is the objective truth.


I really despise Postmodernism. Some of it is basic truisms, the other nine-tenths is bullshit.

That is also an opinion you are entitled to. But it’s not a matter of liking it or not, the question is about whether or not it’s well-founded.

Even if that's a misinterpretation, it's the official policy. The catholic church officially considers homosexuality an abomination, as do a substantial number of Muslims and Jews, especially the religious leaders, most especially the orthodox ones

Even if you let that slide, what about heresy? That should be fairly cut and dry. The price for heresy is very clearly expressed, over and over. There's no room for debate.

Again, I don't see that as really fundamentally undermining what I was saying. Total certitude in the face of zero evidence is illogical, and illogical thinking is generally bad. Religion does inspire violence and bigotry, and these are not random mutations, but, in fact, taken very directly from the texts themselves, and exemplify a pattern of behavior from around the time the texts were written to today.

Again, your interpretation. And the “catholic church” doesn’t do or say anything, leaders within the catholic church does and says things. You are just assuming that your opinions and values are the correct ones that everyone should adapt to. I personally agree with your values regarding slavery etc. Seriously, I live in the only country in the world where the largest church (who until recently was the state-church) has allowed gay couples to marry in exactly the same ritual and entering exactly the same covenant that heterosexual couples do. The question of being gay, straight or whatever is so irrelevant to me that I’ve never considered what to call myself, who I like etc. and I would never call myself straight, gay or whatever. BUT I also know that my opinion is very, very rare and the fact is that the majority of the worlds population don’t share my opinion and I am aware that if I would have grown up in a different place, with different parents or different friends or whatever I would be of a different opinion. I don’t want to say that my opinion is better or more right then anyone else’s on this matter, although that’s how I subjectively feel. In one way I sometimes respect people that are against gay marriage here more then people that are for it because today here a lot of people don’t really think about it seriously, they just go along with everyone else and think it’s ok because it’s political correct to think so, but here if someone is against gay-marriage today that’s really, really controversial and that person will really have to think their opinion through both once and twice and constantly defend their opinion. But then at least they have thought it through closely.
Everything is a social construction, and however clear these values are to us they are nothing but social constructions, and if you think they are something else a lot of scholars would call you religious today in the postmodern era. Read the bible on the subject: Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann’s The Social Construction of reality – A Treatise in the Sociology of Knowledge.
 
It is not irrelevant, I understood what you meant but I don’t agree. Your definition is ill-founded, superficial, non-academic and not very useful.

Non-academic, possibly. I could very well concede that. Otherwise, nonsense. This is absurd. One does not need a theology degree to use and understand the word 'religion.'

You can make how many moral judgements you want, but don’t expect people to consider them to be anything else but your personal opinion which you have created with regards to the social context you live in.

Yes, it’s an opinion you are entitled to, and I think that you and I would agree on topics like slavery etc. but I still consider them to be nothing but political correct opinions and values.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. This is a total impasse. I think this is so fundamentally wrong.


I can tell you are not conducting a historical analysis, since to be able to make statements like yours one has to consider the whole picture and all facts, not just some of the facts which suits ones own interests.

Nope, it’s not that easy. For example within psychoanalysis it’s assumed that people don’t generally know that much about their real motivations. That’s why the subconscious, dreams etc. are very important. So no, just because someone themselves are very convinced of the motivation behind their actions that doesn’t mean that that is the objective truth.

What essential facts did I leave out? What part of what I said was untrue?
Let's recap;

I said that religion is both fundamentally illogical, AND antithetical to rational thought. That's absolutely true. Religion involves holding beliefs and believing them fervently without any evidence, whatsoever. Were I to meet Jesus Christ in person, and receive scientifically unassailible proof that he is the one true god, and that everything in the Bible is completely accurate, which I would accept, this would not make me a Christian. What makes it 'faith' is that it's not grounded in evidence. Absolute certainty in the face of zero proof IS illogical. I also argue that illogical thought is generally bad, and should not be encouraged, which I don't think is controversial.

I also said that religion, as a rule, is inherently bigoted. This is also true. According to the official doctrine of Christians, Jews, and Muslims, heresy is an unpardonable sin. For example, it is made abundantly clear in the Bible that anyone who is not a Christian (Jews/Muslims/Buddhists/etc.) is going to burn in hell forever, and the implication is that this is justifiable. One does not need to do a penetrating analysis to see the worlds' religions, as a rule, are almost entirely incompatible. Moreover, many religions, especially the three Abrahamic faiths, which represent most of the people of faith on earth, also have very clear policies about homosexuals, about a woman's place, etc. Most of these perscriptions are very explicit. Also, most of the time these books not only say certain people are inherently inferior, or what have you, but actually suggests, or even commands believers to do harm to those deemed unfit, or unworthy, or what-have-you.

Which brings me to my next point, that there is no separating religion from violence. The books contain numerous, explicit exhortations to violence, and glorification of violence. I could fill up pages of quotes. This is underlined by the fact that perpetrating said violence was official policy, and continues to be in various religious groups. Not only was it condoned by the Bible, or by the institution of the church, there was a long pattern of behavior for hundreds of years of the most sadistic and wanton violence, from the crusades, to the modern abortion-clinic bombers. The history of religion is soaked in blood.

Lastly, I said that religion really only has academic value, to those who study art, history, literature, etc. None of the positive attributes; humility, charity, honesty, etc., that are claimed to be instilled by religion actually necessitate religious belief. While those who perpetrate religious violence are absolutely motivated by their beliefs, because they're taking it right out of the books. Again, I don't dispute that politics and economics are contributing factors, but to say that the guy who shouts Allahu Akbar!" before igniting the dynamite strapped to his chest, or the people who carry the banners reading; "God Hates Fags!" aren't motivated by their religion is simply preposterous. There's no reason to believe that if religion disappeared overnight that charity, or honesty, etc., would disappear, however I garuntee we'd see a lot less of the aforementioned behavior.


That is also an opinion you are entitled to. But it’s not a matter of liking it or not, the question is about whether or not it’s well-founded.

It's not just a matter of simply disliking it, I think Postmodernism for the most part includes a lot of bad ideas. However, that is really broad and, frankly, off-topic.

You can argue about what the authors of the bible actually meant by the comments on homosexuality, however I find it hard to believe that the modern interpreatation is that far off the mark. However, it has been interpreted essentially one way, and by the other Abrahamic faiths as well. Moreover, this is really only debateable because the Bible doesn't devote that much text to the subject. However, it devotes substantially greater text to other groups and how they should be treated, heretics, especially.

Again, your interpretation. And the “catholic church” doesn’t do or say anything, leaders within the catholic church does and says things.

Yes, it does. Just as the US government, or Chevron, etc. It's a large institution with a central charter, an organized hierarchy and leadership, etc.


You are just assuming that your opinions and values are the correct ones that everyone should adapt to.

I believe that right and wrong are not merely arbitrary constructions. I believe in morality and ethics, and that they are real, and grounded in the real world.

I personally agree with your values regarding slavery etc. Seriously, I live in the only country in the world where the largest church (who until recently was the state-church) has allowed gay couples to marry in exactly the same ritual and entering exactly the same covenant that heterosexual couples do.

That's not based on the official text, nor is that the policy of the Catholic church (The central body of Christianity.), or even the majority, or even close to a majority, of Christian denominations.


The question of being gay, straight or whatever is so irrelevant to me that I’ve never considered what to call myself, who I like etc. and I would never call myself straight, gay or whatever.


You can call yourself whatever you like, however, there are only so many options.


BUT I also know that my opinion is very, very rare and the fact is that the majority of the worlds population don’t share my opinion and I am aware that if I would have grown up in a different place, with different parents or different friends or whatever I would be of a different opinion. I don’t want to say that my opinion is better or more right then anyone else’s on this matter, although that’s how I subjectively feel. In one way I sometimes respect people that are against gay marriage here more then people that are for it because today here a lot of people don’t really think about it seriously, they just go along with everyone else and think it’s ok because it’s political correct to think so, but here if someone is against gay-marriage today that’s really, really controversial and that person will really have to think their opinion through both once and twice and constantly defend their opinion. But then at least they have thought it through closely.
Everything is a social construction, and however clear these values are to us they are nothing but social constructions, and if you think they are something else a lot of scholars would call you religious today in the postmodern era. Read the bible on the subject: Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann’s The Social Construction of reality – A Treatise in the Sociology of Knowledge.

Again, this is a complete impasse. This idea that morality is just some arbitrary, artificial fabrication is absolutely wrong to me. I've never found this idea pursuasive.
 
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