nogodsnomasters85
Not Stirred
No, no, no. I'm not pre-judging, I'm judging. That is a logical conclusion based on the facts. It's absolutely true. Some religions are worse than others, but they're all fundamentally bad.
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No, no, no. I'm not pre-judging, I'm judging. That is a logical conclusion based on the facts. It's absolutely true. Some religions are worse than others, but they're all fundamentally bad.
Emotional Guide Dog
Chairman Of The Bored
We're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see how you can say ALL religion is bad without being some sort of scholar.
I for example, could say that ALL black teenage girls are loud & obnoxious. That's based on the black teenage girls that live near me, but having not met them all, I couldn't say for sure.
Hmmm, only knowing about the ones that make the most noise - that's quite a good metaphor for your argument.
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yesitis
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Jackie London
♥ Howlin' Pelle
The problem with statements like that all religions are evil are that they are based on a politically correct reductionist view if what religion is. If it’s one thing scholars disagree on it is how to define what a religion is. Today it’s more popular to define religion as something functionalistic while previously it was more popular to define it by its essence.
Most people would agree that Christianity, Islam, Judaism and all the big religions are religions. But for example is Judaism a religion? What is it about Judaism that makes it a religion? That Jews believe in god? Actually if you start looking around you will find that many Jews who consider themselves as very, very orthodox don’t believe in god; to them their practice has nothing to do with god or anything “supernatural”. To them their “religion” is nothing more then a way of living a good life; they don’t believe in life after death, they don’t believe in god, they don’t believe that the Torah has a divine origin. But then again there are also orthodox Jews who do believe in god and claim that it’s hypocrite to call yourself a Jew without believing in god. One of my ex-co-workers is a Jew who is extremely pro-Israel (she moved to Israel about a year ago) and I think a lot of people would call her a fundamentalist, but she is also a fundamentalist atheist, I have honestly never heard anyone arguing for evolution theory as hard as she does. And her being a Jew is something very important to her, when you meet her it’s among the first things she will let you know about her. Is she religious? Is her Judaism a religion? My point is that there isn't just one Judaism, there are several. It's not easy to answer what religion and religiousness is. And whenever someone tries to define it the definition always tends to be to reductionist. There is not just one way of being religious, and it’s very, very problematic to generalize and reduce all the ways to just one way. You have to consider the diversity on this topic.
And I would also say that you have to consider your sources very carefully. Because most people get their information from media and I would strongly recommend using a more reliable source because with media you always have to remember that bad news sell. An example: a lot of media have had a habit of portraying Muslims as doing nothing else then committing terrorist attacks which has caused something of a islamophobia among a lot of people today. And I personally would claim that that picture is caused mostly by media. Because when you look into scientific research that has been made on this topic you will find that there in fact is no research at all that backs up the statement that Muslims would be terrorists to any higher degree then the average person. For example, during 2008 there were around 500 terrorist attacks throughout Europe, anyone who wants to guess how many of them that was committed by a Muslim? Come on, just take a guess before you read the answer……………………………………………………………….The answer is zero! None of the terrorist attacks committed in Europe during 2008 was committed by a Muslim when the investigations were finished. That’s not really the impression you get by the media. So you have to think both once and twice on what you’re founding your picture of religions on. And as Emotional Guide Dog said; relying on your own experiences isn’t a great idea. You will see what you’re expecting to see.
Most people would agree that Christianity, Islam, Judaism and all the big religions are religions. But for example is Judaism a religion? What is it about Judaism that makes it a religion? That Jews believe in god? Actually if you start looking around you will find that many Jews who consider themselves as very, very orthodox don’t believe in god; to them their practice has nothing to do with god or anything “supernatural”. To them their “religion” is nothing more then a way of living a good life; they don’t believe in life after death, they don’t believe in god, they don’t believe that the Torah has a divine origin. But then again there are also orthodox Jews who do believe in god and claim that it’s hypocrite to call yourself a Jew without believing in god. One of my ex-co-workers is a Jew who is extremely pro-Israel (she moved to Israel about a year ago) and I think a lot of people would call her a fundamentalist, but she is also a fundamentalist atheist, I have honestly never heard anyone arguing for evolution theory as hard as she does. And her being a Jew is something very important to her, when you meet her it’s among the first things she will let you know about her. Is she religious? Is her Judaism a religion? My point is that there isn't just one Judaism, there are several. It's not easy to answer what religion and religiousness is. And whenever someone tries to define it the definition always tends to be to reductionist. There is not just one way of being religious, and it’s very, very problematic to generalize and reduce all the ways to just one way. You have to consider the diversity on this topic.
And I would also say that you have to consider your sources very carefully. Because most people get their information from media and I would strongly recommend using a more reliable source because with media you always have to remember that bad news sell. An example: a lot of media have had a habit of portraying Muslims as doing nothing else then committing terrorist attacks which has caused something of a islamophobia among a lot of people today. And I personally would claim that that picture is caused mostly by media. Because when you look into scientific research that has been made on this topic you will find that there in fact is no research at all that backs up the statement that Muslims would be terrorists to any higher degree then the average person. For example, during 2008 there were around 500 terrorist attacks throughout Europe, anyone who wants to guess how many of them that was committed by a Muslim? Come on, just take a guess before you read the answer……………………………………………………………….The answer is zero! None of the terrorist attacks committed in Europe during 2008 was committed by a Muslim when the investigations were finished. That’s not really the impression you get by the media. So you have to think both once and twice on what you’re founding your picture of religions on. And as Emotional Guide Dog said; relying on your own experiences isn’t a great idea. You will see what you’re expecting to see.
nogodsnomasters85
Not Stirred
Jackie London & Emotional Guide Dog, I'm just going to post one response, because you're oth essentially making the same argument, so I'll just 'kill two birds' as the saying goes...
First, as Jackie London asks, what is religion? Religion includes culture, and practices, clothing, rituals, etc. However, that's really surface phenomena. Fundamentally, religion is, and is generally understood to be, belief in some particular faith. I'm aware many Jews are essentially atheists who cling to a culture, and traditions, that they value, I know a Rabbi who is like this, however, to put it bluntly, I would say they are not really Jewish. Of course, I'd be more diplomatic if I was speaking to them, personally, but that's it. Without the actual belief, it's just a tradition, or a style. What seperates religion is the beliefs. As the colloquialism goes; "Sticking feathers up your.."
Alright, now that's out of the way. Now, Emotional Guide Dog's assertion that I'm judging unfairly by disproportionately looking at the most egregious examples. Well, I'd have to say I think that's incorrect. First of all, the big offenders are the Abrahamic faiths; Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Collectively, these faiths not only make up niine-tenths of the religious landscape, but of the population of earth. That's not cherry picking. Moreover, beyond all the horrible things religions do, and, admittedly, some, like Tibetan Buddhism, are less destructive than others, they ALL are alike in one respect; they are fundamentally illogical, and antithetical to logical thought. This ALONE is reason enough to oppose religion, beyond all the horrible things we do. To paraphrase Sam Harris, besides killing eachother, the only way of communicating and resolving our differences is conversation, and religion is a conversation stopper. Religion takes people out of the game of reasoned discussion.
Just as a sidenote to Jackie London, I'm aware of the hysterical, and racist Islamophobia that has become disturbingly prevalent in the United States, it repulses me as well. The US media tends to reinforce this attitudes which is one of the millions of reasons why I prefer independent or foreign media.
I'm not picking on Islam.
Now... The one thing that I will concede, just so that I'm being clear, is that I understand perfectly that there are billions of religious people out there, and most of them are largely decent people. The most violent and bigoted individuals are not necessarily representative of the rank and file. However, they are absolutely representative of their respective faiths. What does the Bible say about women's rights or homosexuality? Or the Koran? Read the books, it's all in there. These books contain very obvious, and explicit exhortations to violence. According to the scripture homosexuality is an 'abomination' that should be punishible by death. That's not subtle, there's no room for misinterpretation. Read Levicticus, whatever, just pick a page and start reading, in no time you'll find impetus for some atrocity or another. The Osama bin Laden's and the abortion clinic bombers read the books cover to cover, I assure you. They can quote chapter and verse. They were able to square everything that they did with what they found in those books, in fact, that's where they got the idea. There's definitely a problem within Islam, but I'm not singling them out by any means. For Christians to decry Islam as violent and brutal is the definition of hypocrisy. Devout christians massacred, and tortured heretics, really, in thost abominable ways you can imagine, just about the worst acts of sadism you can conjure, for centuries. As I've said, the individuals doing this read the book cover to cover. They read the sermon on the mount and they were able to square their actions perfectly with that book. The new testament does not repudiate all the awful shit in the first half, even jesus has his bad days where he says things like if you find a heretic you should "bring him hither and slay him before me." It's pretty easy to see where people might go with that. So I'm not pre-judging, I'm judging. These books are filled with bigotry, sexism, intolerance, and deliberate, open exhortations to do violence.
Now, I don't deny religions do some very good things. However, I would say that religion doesn't offer anything real that couldn't be acquired, or would be better off being acquired elsewhere. The catholic church does a lot for charity, however, it also instructs people who have no other source of information, in the most AIDS-ravaged parts of Africa, that they shouldn't use condoms. I fully support charity, humility, graciousness, morality, etc., but none of these traits are inherently religious. None of these traits automatically follow from blind certitude in a magical creator. Whereas the belief that all homosexuals should be killed, that women are essentially chattel, and all heretics will burn in hell forever absolutely come from those respective texts.
Religion, moreso than anything else, is proclaimed to be beyond the scope of conversation. Unlike sports, science, art, politics, and everything else we have to give religion a wide berth. We can't discuss it, we can't question it, and we certainly can't criticize it. We need new rules of conversation. We need to break down these barriers and have the guts to call a spade a spade. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say religion is the opposite of civilization, that's an absolute fact. If we want to build a better world, if we want to get it together as a species, we must fianally shrug off these pre-medieval dogmatisms. To quote Sam Harris; "There is no possible future in which aspiring martyrs will make good neighbors."
First, as Jackie London asks, what is religion? Religion includes culture, and practices, clothing, rituals, etc. However, that's really surface phenomena. Fundamentally, religion is, and is generally understood to be, belief in some particular faith. I'm aware many Jews are essentially atheists who cling to a culture, and traditions, that they value, I know a Rabbi who is like this, however, to put it bluntly, I would say they are not really Jewish. Of course, I'd be more diplomatic if I was speaking to them, personally, but that's it. Without the actual belief, it's just a tradition, or a style. What seperates religion is the beliefs. As the colloquialism goes; "Sticking feathers up your.."
Alright, now that's out of the way. Now, Emotional Guide Dog's assertion that I'm judging unfairly by disproportionately looking at the most egregious examples. Well, I'd have to say I think that's incorrect. First of all, the big offenders are the Abrahamic faiths; Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Collectively, these faiths not only make up niine-tenths of the religious landscape, but of the population of earth. That's not cherry picking. Moreover, beyond all the horrible things religions do, and, admittedly, some, like Tibetan Buddhism, are less destructive than others, they ALL are alike in one respect; they are fundamentally illogical, and antithetical to logical thought. This ALONE is reason enough to oppose religion, beyond all the horrible things we do. To paraphrase Sam Harris, besides killing eachother, the only way of communicating and resolving our differences is conversation, and religion is a conversation stopper. Religion takes people out of the game of reasoned discussion.
Just as a sidenote to Jackie London, I'm aware of the hysterical, and racist Islamophobia that has become disturbingly prevalent in the United States, it repulses me as well. The US media tends to reinforce this attitudes which is one of the millions of reasons why I prefer independent or foreign media.
I'm not picking on Islam.
Now... The one thing that I will concede, just so that I'm being clear, is that I understand perfectly that there are billions of religious people out there, and most of them are largely decent people. The most violent and bigoted individuals are not necessarily representative of the rank and file. However, they are absolutely representative of their respective faiths. What does the Bible say about women's rights or homosexuality? Or the Koran? Read the books, it's all in there. These books contain very obvious, and explicit exhortations to violence. According to the scripture homosexuality is an 'abomination' that should be punishible by death. That's not subtle, there's no room for misinterpretation. Read Levicticus, whatever, just pick a page and start reading, in no time you'll find impetus for some atrocity or another. The Osama bin Laden's and the abortion clinic bombers read the books cover to cover, I assure you. They can quote chapter and verse. They were able to square everything that they did with what they found in those books, in fact, that's where they got the idea. There's definitely a problem within Islam, but I'm not singling them out by any means. For Christians to decry Islam as violent and brutal is the definition of hypocrisy. Devout christians massacred, and tortured heretics, really, in thost abominable ways you can imagine, just about the worst acts of sadism you can conjure, for centuries. As I've said, the individuals doing this read the book cover to cover. They read the sermon on the mount and they were able to square their actions perfectly with that book. The new testament does not repudiate all the awful shit in the first half, even jesus has his bad days where he says things like if you find a heretic you should "bring him hither and slay him before me." It's pretty easy to see where people might go with that. So I'm not pre-judging, I'm judging. These books are filled with bigotry, sexism, intolerance, and deliberate, open exhortations to do violence.
Now, I don't deny religions do some very good things. However, I would say that religion doesn't offer anything real that couldn't be acquired, or would be better off being acquired elsewhere. The catholic church does a lot for charity, however, it also instructs people who have no other source of information, in the most AIDS-ravaged parts of Africa, that they shouldn't use condoms. I fully support charity, humility, graciousness, morality, etc., but none of these traits are inherently religious. None of these traits automatically follow from blind certitude in a magical creator. Whereas the belief that all homosexuals should be killed, that women are essentially chattel, and all heretics will burn in hell forever absolutely come from those respective texts.
Religion, moreso than anything else, is proclaimed to be beyond the scope of conversation. Unlike sports, science, art, politics, and everything else we have to give religion a wide berth. We can't discuss it, we can't question it, and we certainly can't criticize it. We need new rules of conversation. We need to break down these barriers and have the guts to call a spade a spade. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say religion is the opposite of civilization, that's an absolute fact. If we want to build a better world, if we want to get it together as a species, we must fianally shrug off these pre-medieval dogmatisms. To quote Sam Harris; "There is no possible future in which aspiring martyrs will make good neighbors."
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Anaesthesine
Angel of Distemper
^ ^
What he said.
What he said.
Y
yesitis
Guest
What they're about to say.
\/ \/
\/ \/
Media Whore
Nowhere. Everywhere.
I like big butts and I cannot lie.
Jackie London
♥ Howlin' Pelle
Betty Bowers, Americas best christian, explains what constitutes a real bible based marriage, enjoy!
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Emotional Guide Dog
Chairman Of The Bored
Well, nogodsnomasters, I still disagree with some of what you're saying but no-one could accuse you of not being thorough.
Excellent post, nice one.
Excellent post, nice one.
billy scissors
a bit fond
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JoanOfArc
Hidden
Hey idiot,are you f***ing stupid?Worship my huge c.............
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JoanOfArc
Hidden
Re: Oh dear
ok...Please do not insult other users outside the pigsty.
Thank you very much.
Re: Oh dear
It's ok.
I forgive you.
And then I bless you with...:
It's ok.
I forgive you.
And then I bless you with...:
...more Jesus huge c****!
And:
!!!!!
And:
JoanOfArc
Hidden
Re: Oh dear
Why do you ask, do you want to make christmas cards with me?
My cat blesses you too:
Why do you ask, do you want to make christmas cards with me?
My cat blesses you too:
JoanOfArc
Hidden
Re: Oh dear
Im impressed and now i suggest you f... off.Thanks in advance.Why do you ask, do you want to make christmas cards with me?
My cat blesses you too:
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