The ethics of vegetarianism

Discussion in 'General Discussion archive 2000 (read-only)' started by Transient, Jul 23, 2000.

  1. Sweetie, if everyone went veggie there would be no food shortage..."huh...how d'ya work that out, you been sniffing the cleaning products again?!..."

    See it takes more land to grow crops to feed to animals to make them fat enough to go under the knife than it does to not mass produce these animals and just eat the vegetables themselves, see? I'm not sure of the actual figure but the same amount of land that feeds two meat eaters would feed eight vegetarians! See vegetarianism is about being kinder all round. Rain forest is destroyed daily to make way for cattle ranching to satisfy the burger business in the US. And this also causes errosion of top soil, so after a couple of years this land is no good to anyone but the dead...so more trees come down!

    Somebody once asked me to give them one good reason why someone who doesn't care for any of that should give up meat...My reply...ecoli, listeria, botulism, salmonella, bse...
     
  2. Roy

    Roy Guest

    Re: just remember this.. everyone..

    anyone want to place bets with me over which oversensitive, holier-than-thou person (who takes themselves WAY too seriously) will be the first to chime in to refute hnia's very down-to-earth, sensible post???

    > All around us are items connected in some way to animal
    > suffering: some brands of white sugar (bone char used in some
    > processing), monoglycerides (might come from an animal),
    > non-dairy chocolate (made on machines that also make milk
    > chocolate), beer and wine (animal products used in some
    > processing), photographs and reel-to-reel movies (gelatin),
    > bicycles (animal fat used in the vulcanization of tires), books
    > (hooves and bones in binding glue), roads and buildings (animal
    > products used in curing concrete), medicine (tested on animals),
    > etc.

    > All of us benefit in some way by the death of animals.

    > hnia
     
  3. IceNoodle

    IceNoodle Guest

    > you will have trouble keeping that child healthy, although
    > spinach does contain lots of Iron it won't do you any good
    > without b12, there are only 3 ways to obtain b12, 1) Red meat 2)
    > Raw Liver 3) artificial suppliment, without b12 your child's
    > body will be unable to absorb iron.

    > Some vegetarians know how to stay healthy but many of them are
    > unable to stay healthy and end up pale, lethargic and
    > underweight.

    > You will probably find that forcing your child to be a
    > vegetarian will constitute child abuse.

    WEll, i've been a vegetarian for all my 14 years, and i'd never say i was stuck in a rut, stuck in a rut, stuck in a rut, stuck in a rut

    Monty Python aside, i truly doubt what you are saying. I have been a veggie all my 14 years since birth, and i am more healthy than any of my meat eating friends.

    Leo
     
  4. IceNoodle

    IceNoodle Guest

    Re: Morally Acceptable Diets.

    > I'm from big nose city, and I can tell you we all like a bit of
    > bully.

    > Has anyone thought of starting a Jim Bowen fanclub? It could
    > have a fancy name like The Jim Bowen Fanclub.

    > I'll open up proceedings then with 50p and a set of hardly used
    > darts.

    Wow, I saw Jim Bowen getting off the QE2!!!!!! Can I join?
     
  5. IceNoodle

    IceNoodle Guest

    > Thanks for your usual enlightment, my dear cinders, but it
    > really makes no difference because I'd still see meat as other
    > bad things that are likewise enjoyable...I ocassionally have a
    > cigarette and a drink although it's proven they kill you and
    > every month or so I gulp a deadly ecstasy in a rave party and as
    > far as my meat consumption, it only represents 20% of my diet, I
    > dont eat porkchops/ribs/bacon, I'm more the grilled chicken
    > salad or seafood type ...my philosophy is you can do anything
    > you want with measurement and moderation... I eat a lot of
    > veggies because they are better for my health but I still
    > believe they are live things that had to be killed for me to eat
    > them!! Translate that moderation into an organized society
    > (worth striving for) where animal species aren't affected by the
    > achievement of controlled meat production systems, that can be
    > manipulated to feed the millions of starving humans who live in
    > countries that are too dead to grow even cacti, how can you
    > condemn that?
    > If all these flaming vegetarians applied such fervor in all the
    > things that are morally wrong this would be the nicest forum to
    > share ideas with, but it is so easy to feel righteous and
    > perfect (and what about their self-granted right to be
    > judgemental!!) by not eating something, but when it comes to
    > making prevail human life and its values or refraining from
    > diminishing other people by their points of views ,then they
    > turn aroung and gag!!!
    > Well, I really have to get back to work...
    > hey , seafood makes u f.uck even harder!!!!

    Cool, I'm a flaming vegetarian. Join me as I set fire to the meaters

    Leo
     
  6. IceNoodle

    IceNoodle Guest

    Re: just remember this.. everyone..

    > All around us are items connected in some way to animal
    > suffering: some brands of white sugar (bone char used in some
    > processing), monoglycerides (might come from an animal),
    > non-dairy chocolate (made on machines that also make milk
    > chocolate), beer and wine (animal products used in some
    > processing), photographs and reel-to-reel movies (gelatin),
    > bicycles (animal fat used in the vulcanization of tires), books
    > (hooves and bones in binding glue), roads and buildings (animal
    > products used in curing concrete), medicine (tested on animals),
    > etc.

    > All of us benefit in some way by the death of animals.

    > hnia

    hi there, i'm holier-than-thou. Frankly, this has many good points, but it serves to feed my bellowing vegetarianistic attitudes more, and really makes me even more fed up with society and its many pitfalls for people like me, mr holier-than-thou. Ooh, i think i'll go and live in the mud. But then what do I know? I'm an anarchist. c'est la vie, citizens.

    Leo
     
  7. IceNoodle

    IceNoodle Guest

    Re: just remember this.. everyone..

    > anyone want to place bets with me over which oversensitive,
    > holier-than-thou person (who takes themselves WAY too seriously)
    > will be the first to chime in to refute hnia's very
    > down-to-earth, sensible post???

    Plus, there's nothing wrong with taking yourself seriously, "roy". If that IS your real name

    Leo
     
  8. IceNoodle

    IceNoodle Guest

    Re: On the contrary!

    > Sorry sdavenport but I absolutely HAVE to disagree. Simply look
    > at the size of this thread and read some of the anger scattered
    > through it. It seems Transient touched a bit of a raw nerve on a
    > dangerously emotional subject. Even his/her own admission that
    > it was only a joke hasn't stopped upset vego's having a dig.

    > I don't normally do this, actually I've NEVER done this as I
    > find it wincingly pretentious but(cringe!) " It is strange
    > that the most violent republicans I know are all vegetarians.
    > Brussel sprouts seem to make people bloodthirsty and those who
    > live on lentils and artichokes are always calling for the gore
    > of the aristocracy and the severed heads of kings." O.
    > Wilde.

    > Whad'ya reckon?

    > T.P.U. xxx

    curses! An oscar Wilde quote! Or is it? Further investigation (i.e making it up) has shown that this O is nothing more than a mr. Oliver Wilde, famous for criticising vegetarians for their vegetable tendencies. Answer THAT!
     
  9. IceNoodle

    IceNoodle Guest

    Re: Beetroot break-out.

    > You're the first one here who hasn't gotten all self righteous
    > and serious, it was all meant to be a joke but people chose to
    > take it serious so I decided to let them keep being serious and
    > get myself into a nice little argument while I'm at it.

    Ha. ha. ha. A Joke. Ha. Ha. Ha. See my fist? WHACK
     
  10. Re: On the contrary!

    > curses! An oscar Wilde quote! Or is it? Further investigation
    > (i.e making it up) has shown that this O is nothing more than a
    > mr. Oliver Wilde, famous for criticising vegetarians for their
    > vegetable tendencies. Answer THAT!

    DRAT AND DOUBLE DRAT! You're keen brain and ever-so-clever lateral thinking approach has exposed my cunning ploy. Curses upon you IceNoodle
    *shaking fist whilst plummeting down a bottomless chasm* You'll pay for this, I'll get you next time....AAAAAaaaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh!

    T.P.U. xxx
     
  11. Membership.

    > Wow, I saw Jim Bowen getting off the QE2!!!!!! Can I join?

    Yeah sure, you can join. All you have to do is answer the simple initiation question (which any self-respecting Jim Bowen fan will automatically know). What's the name of the score-caller guy?

    BTW another smashing, triffic, interesting Jimbo fact. The reason you saw Mr B. alight from the QE2 is that he is absolutely TERRIFIED of flying. True, honest, super, greeeaaat!

    T.P.U. xxx
     
  12. Well, I was kinda picturing the lab way of producing meat than the traditional out-in-the-open way you describe... of course that might sound crueler for animals but these 'cloning' facilities could also monitor their nervous system to keep them from feeling pain and the sort.
    Vegetables/fruits are nowadays produced this way!!!

    > Sweetie, if everyone went veggie there would be no food
    > shortage..."huh...how d'ya work that out, you been sniffing
    > the cleaning products again?!..."

    > See it takes more land to grow crops to feed to animals to make
    > them fat enough to go under the knife than it does to not mass
    > produce these animals and just eat the vegetables themselves,
    > see? I'm not sure of the actual figure but the same amount of
    > land that feeds two meat eaters would feed eight vegetarians!
    > See vegetarianism is about being kinder all round. Rain forest
    > is destroyed daily to make way for cattle ranching to satisfy
    > the burger business in the US. And this also causes errosion of
    > top soil, so after a couple of years this land is no good to
    > anyone but the dead...so more trees come down!

    > Somebody once asked me to give them one good reason why someone
    > who doesn't care for any of that should give up meat...My
    > reply...ecoli, listeria, botulism, salmonella, bse...
     
  13. >Translate that moderation into an organized society
    > (worth striving for) where animal species aren't affected by the
    > achievement of controlled meat production systems, that can be
    > manipulated to feed the millions of starving humans who live in
    > countries that are too dead to grow even cacti, how can you
    > condemn that?

    Reality Check. The grain used to feed those cattle (one herd) can feed millions of starving people. But, we spend in on the cattle, becuase meat sells. IF you truly want to help end world starvation, read into the facts. That is if you want to. You could just be using that as a nice point to add to your paragraph.
     
  14. Re: just remember this.. everyone..

    > All of us benefit in some way by the death of animals.

    > hnia

    But, you have to injest the carcassed afterward? Disguisting, hmm, anyone for a broken bleeding thigh?

    ~oh, for those of you with way too many poles up your you-know-where, get off your high horses and realize that those responding are those who care, and not "holier than thou."
     
  15. somnium

    somnium Guest

    > WEll, i've been a vegetarian for all my 14 years, and i'd never
    > say i was stuck in a rut, stuck in a rut, stuck in a rut, stuck
    > in a rut

    > Monty Python aside, i truly doubt what you are saying. I have
    > been a veggie all my 14 years since birth, and i am more healthy
    > than any of my meat eating friends.

    > Leo

    Right. In fact when you say NO to "meat", your body says to you: "Thank you so much for respecting me !!!"...
     
  16. somnium

    somnium Guest

    > Cool, I'm a flaming vegetarian. Join me as I set fire to the
    > meaters

    > Leo

    Go ahead Leo !!! You've got my support.
     
  17. somnium

    somnium Guest

    Re: Here's your answer..

    > Over and over, i have heard non-vegetarians use this arguement
    > against ours, and the other one, about us being the dominant
    > species, therefore we should USE animals for our own ends. First
    > off, i am wondering, why do you (non-vegetarians as a whole)
    > take
    > such issue with what we do? We're not hurting anyone or standing
    > in the way of your meat, there's no way we could stop it. Why
    > did you even bring it up? ..Anyway, in my perspective, (and this
    > doesn't go for everyone of course)i believe for one thing, in
    > the
    > unity of every living thing, human, animal, plants, just every
    > aspect of life, i believe that no living thing is no more equal
    > then the other, and that everything is beautiful and divine, in
    > way this suggests i'm a naturalist, but i love animals too much
    > to eat them and besides it's pretty damn obvious to me that they
    > have souls and have the capacity to feel and think..i mean,
    > @#!!! ,
    > this isn't even a arguement!! Watch the animals, perhaps you'd
    > notice they act just LIKE US in their circumstances. Then
    > some stupid @#!!! says "OH but..cluck,
    > cluck..c'mon"..Well don't
    > you ever think how we sound to other animals, it's was
    > "woofs" are
    > to us, they don't make a bunch of "noise" for the sake
    > of it,
    > they're communicating, it's so obvious. And then there's the
    > plant arguement. "Why do you eat carrots?", etc..well,
    > first off, i am
    > not denying that plant life HAS life and feeling, i think
    > perhaps
    > it does, though i'm not as well-learned in this area, but it
    > comes down to the fact that in modern society one can't feed on
    > roots and twigs, so either we eat plants or die. So there you
    > go.
    > Animals CAN feel and i believe meat is murder frankly, though
    > i won't get pissy at you if you eat a burger, i mean, what can i
    > do
    > about it, so why do you get pissy at us?

    > -lazy line painter jane

    I'm sure they have feelings and even a soul. We are not still able to understand how reach is the language betwen animals and nature, but when I see my dog, full of love and devotion, and when I see a pig, I don't know the difference, cause they both deserve to be here. If you enjoy eating a dead body, go on, but I don't accept when they say:"This is normal and natural". No, this is not normal. And when I person eats meat near me I feel sick just to feel that "evil aroma". Yes, MEAT IS MURDER.
     
  18. somnium

    somnium Guest

    Re: just understand this...

    > All around us are items connected in some way to animal
    > suffering: some brands of white sugar (bone char used in some
    > processing), monoglycerides (might come from an animal),
    > non-dairy chocolate (made on machines that also make milk
    > chocolate), beer and wine (animal products used in some
    > processing), photographs and reel-to-reel movies (gelatin),
    > bicycles (animal fat used in the vulcanization of tires), books
    > (hooves and bones in binding glue), roads and buildings (animal
    > products used in curing concrete), medicine (tested on animals),
    > etc.

    > All of us benefit in some way by the death of animals.

    > hnia

    When you are a real vegetarian, you will not buy leather, or eat something wich could benefit the death of animals. There are lots of great alternatives. You just need to say no to some useless things wich will not make your life better. This atitude will not kill you at all, you know? When I see a person wearing leather and smiling like a stupid, I think: Oh you...evil thing !!!
     
  19. Transient

    Transient Guest

    Re: one of the stupidest posts ever...

    > please tell me this is a joke...

    I've told them this is a joke many times now but they still choose to get up on their soap boxes.
     
  20. Transient

    Transient Guest

    To Cinders and others.

    > Human beings have plant eaters jaws (move from side to side and
    > not just up and down as do carnivors)

    We aren't made as vegetarians, we aren't made as carnivours, we are omnivours, our jaw and teeth have features for flesh and plant.

    > Human beings have plant eaters guts (long not short as carnivors
    > guts are)

    But with each generation the appendix gets smaller, it processes chloroform(that's the green stuff in plants), a specialist plant eater has a big appendix.

    > We cannot properly digest meat...

    True we can't digest all of it but even without processing it all we extract more energy than is possible from many times the plant matter.

    You may notice that all the more intelligent creatures eat flesh, Dolphines eat flesh, the higher order of primates eat flesh, octopus eat flesh and parrots(proven to be quite intelligent) eat small creatures, The more complexed and active brains require alot of protien, you have to eat several pounds of nuts to get the protien available in a few ounces of meat.
     
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