"Surely how I feel is not nothing?" by Morrissey - statement at true-to-you.net

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Thatcher was without doubt incredibly popular with Tory voters, all 40 odd percent of those eligable to vote, but lets face it, did anyone ever meet a Tory who's parents weren't also Tories? It's the party of tradition. Those of us who look at her objectively as we haven't got that party allegiance through birth saw her for the monster she was. Just like now, that utter c*** Cameron and his Eton chums are about as popular as a swift kick in the nuts with anyone who isn't a traditional Tory voter and can be seen as completely incompetent - Gove in particular - but then we'll probably be stuck with them for a load more years because the opposition are no more use than as a protest vote. No wonder people are full of apathy towards politics and politicians.

The opposition is a protest vote because not enough people vote for them. It's democracy. When Labour get back in their 42.6% or whatever it might be, it will be seen as a mandate to govern. You can't have it both ways.

Also, one of the defining aspects of Thatcher's three terms was the rise of what was termed Essex Man, the working class Labour voters who turned their backs on the "grotesque chaos" of Labour in favour of the Tories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_man
 
The opposition is a protest vote because not enough people vote for them. It's democracy. When Labour get back in their 42.6% or whatever it might be, it will be seen as a mandate to govern. You can't have it both ways.

Also, one of the defining aspects of Thatcher's three terms was the rise of what was termed Essex Man, the working class Labour voters who turned their backs on the "grotesque chaos" of Labour in favour of the Tories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_man


I think you're assuming that I have some affinity with Labour which I don't, same self serving shit, different colour.

We have a very undemocratic electoral system, we were recently offered a choice between this or something at least as bad. Under a democratic system everybody's vote - as long as it met a minimum requirement - would be represented. What we have is the minority of the population being represented and the rest having to lump it. Where I live there literally is no point in voting as the Conservative Party have won the seat for as long as any of us have been alive.

I'm not sure what you mean by can't have it both ways, if I vote I want my vote to be represented in parliament, I don't want it to depend on gerrymandering or which neighbourhood I live in, would that be so unfair?
 
I think you're assuming that I have some affinity with Labour which I don't, same self serving shit, different colour.

We have a very undemocratic electoral system, we were recently offered a choice between this or something at least as bad. Under a democratic system everybody's vote - as long as it met a minimum requirement - would be represented. What we have is the minority of the population being represented and the rest having to lump it. Where I live there literally is no point in voting as the Conservative Party have won the seat for as long as any of us have been alive.

I'm not sure what you mean by can't have it both ways, if I vote I want my vote to be represented in parliament, I don't want it to depend on gerrymandering or which neighbourhood I live in, would that be so unfair?

I think the both ways comment meant that Labour governments are elected with a minority vote also.

I presume you would like a PR system, which is a fair comment, but it has it's faults. One aspect of PR is that you wouldn't necessarily be voting for your local MP who represents the constituency where you live
 
I think the both ways comment meant that Labour governments are elected with a minority vote also.

I presume you would like a PR system, which is a fair comment, but it has it's faults. One aspect of PR is that you wouldn't necessarily be voting for your local MP who represents the constituency where you live

Exactly, I never really bought into the constituency thing, would it not be able to have a member of parliament to write to still should you have an issue? I never bought into the idea of strong government either, that just says to me a government which can do as it pleases regardless of opposition to what they're doing.

Labour and the Tories would still run the country whatever system we have but under a different system you could vote for your political beliefs rather than the lesser of evils - or if you lived an area like I do and didn't want to vote Tory your vote wouldn't be wasted.
 
Regrettably certain people wish to forget that very salient point. Ditto Reagan, of course. Perhaps there is another parallel we can draw between those two, in death. When Reagan died you had those who thought him a great hero, and those who thought him a great villain, while the vast, vast majority didn't really have a strong opinion either way.

On this thread we've been repeatedly told how much of the country hated her, not least from Morrissey himself, when in fact, broadly speaking the population didn't give a toss.

I also wonder if some Americans fully grasp the role of British Prime Minister. The President Of The United States combines the political and the ceremonial, in as much as the President is also the Head Of State. That means that most Americans, to their great credit, understand a President commands the respect of the nation in that role even if they don't back his policies. We choose our Head Of State by accident of birth, while in the USA they prefer the equally strange method of watching unemployed multi-millionaires battle it out every four years while boring the arse off the entire population.

British Prime Minister is solely a political role, and is known also as first amongst equals with his Cabinet colleagues. The title was unofficial and is quite new by British standards, coming into popular usage in 1905, with Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman. Previous incumbents are called Prime Minister retrospectively.

He or she is head of the executive, while Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her Other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, is the Head Of State. It is also why the PM lives in a terraced house with the use of a country pile at weekends, and the Queen has all the palaces.

This also means we don't have quite the same respect for the office of Prime Minister itself.


This definitely helps explain why in America no one that I know of cheered when Reagan died. Though many disliked his policies, they did have a measure of respect for him simply because he was their President. I disliked Bush's policies. But would never wish him dead or celebrate his death. That IS a very un-American thing to do.

So thanks for that bit of info/analysis.
 
Exactly, I never really bought into the constituency thing, would it not be able to have a member of parliament to write to still should you have an issue? I never bought into the idea of strong government either, that just says to me a government which can do as it pleases regardless of opposition to what they're doing.

Labour and the Tories would still run the country whatever system we have but under a different system you could vote for your political beliefs rather than the lesser of evils - or if you lived an area like I do and didn't want to vote Tory your vote wouldn't be wasted.

The local MP for a voter's constituency should really be valued and used more than it is. I've never visited my MP's surgery with issues, and I don't personally know anyone who has. How this would work under PR hasn't been broadly explained, but it would, I presume, be a loss to some voters. I think the majority do vote on national issues, albeit ones which ultimately effect themselves
 
The local MP for a voter's constituency should really be valued and used more than it is. I've never visited my MP's surgery with issues, and I don't personally know anyone who has. How this would work under PR hasn't been broadly explained, but it would, I presume, be a loss to some voters. I think the majority do vote on national issues, albeit ones which ultimately effect themselves



I've written to Kenneth Clarke a couple of times as he's my MP and fair enough he replied but my questions were on a National issue rather than local so they wouldn't be affected. To my mind most local issues are dealt with by councils rather than your MP although I guess if your MP gives a shit about what your problem is he/she could take it up for you. Mine didn't :D

I'm sure you could have a designated MP under a PR system, would this be any different than one of the parties banging one of their favoured candidates into a safe seat?
 
How would that work under PR though? How would an MP be delegated to your area if the vote in that constituency was mostly for a different party than theirs?

I've written to Kenneth Clarke a couple of times as he's my MP and fair enough he replied but my questions were on a National issue rather than local so they wouldn't be affected. To my mind most local issues are dealt with by councils rather than your MP although I guess if your MP gives a shit about what your problem is he/she could take it up for you. Mine didn't :D

I'm sure you could have a designated MP under a PR system, would this be any different than one of the parties banging one of their favoured candidates into a safe seat?
 
How would that work under PR though? How would an MP be delegated to your area if the vote in that constituency was mostly for a different party than theirs?


I wouldn't have a problem being designated an MP, I've never voted for Kenneth Clarke but as he's the man that represents me he's the one I write to. The only negative for me would be that I would imagine getting elected as an Independent could be very difficult.
 
I wouldn't have a problem being designated an MP, I've never voted for Kenneth Clarke but as he's the man that represents me he's the one I write to. The only negative for me would be that I would imagine getting elected as an Independent could be very difficult.

Yeah, I'm not questioning whether it would work, so much as how it would work. No one seems to answer that point effectively
 
I wouldn't have a problem being designated an MP, I've never voted for Kenneth Clarke but as he's the man that represents me he's the one I write to. The only negative for me would be that I would imagine getting elected as an Independent could be very difficult.

Martin Bell did it, I think.

P.
 
Martin Bell did it, I think.

P.

He did, he was pretty well known though wasn't he? Say if you or me wanted to stand for election now we could probably drum up a bit of support to stand locally if we were sensible where as to do that Nationally would take $$$.
 
Yeah, I'm not questioning whether it would work, so much as how it would work. No one seems to answer that point effectively

It's a massive area that's the trouble, if you wanted to go PR then there are loads of different options and the more options you have the harder it is to get agreement on where to go.
 
I really do respect Morrissey's words here, but I just don't have the right to comment, really. I was just a kid living in the USA during the time Thatcher was PM. I do remember seeing her on the news with President Reagan quite a bit, but that's about it. From what I've heard from others, and the fact that Ding Dong the Witch is Dead made it to #2 on the charts...well...that says a lot, right there, about what huge majority of the British public think and feel! As for Morrissey's statement, well, lots of people have been looking for this and expected no less. He's always been very outspoken against Thatcher and the Royals. I mean, who else remembers reading this man stood in front of Buckingham palace with a noose around his neck in the early 1980's...before he was famous?

Ok. Thank you Hand in Glove in the USA. Hey, please join in the Thatcher debate, it is for everyone! In fact i loved your comments & agree with you.
I never knew about Morrissey's episode at the palace with the noose around his neck! Look when he & Johnny made their voice heard there were historical tracks issued, like The Queen is Dead plus Margaret on the guillotine!
I have NOT heard anyone mention " MARGARET ON THE GUILLOTINE " on this site Why?? Denial that he sang it all those moons ago? You tell me?
Thank you Morrissey for always sticking your guns - hey, i can not hear any other protest singers speaking out about Thatcher. Shame on you Billy Bragg, Paul Weller & Oasis. Gawd bless Morrissey! - Pleeeaaassseee keeep saying it exactly as it is!

I love Morrissey because HE sticks to his guns, he never wavers & he is never up for debate.

Jacxxx
 
hey, i can not hear any other protest singers speaking out about Thatcher. Shame on you Billy Bragg, Paul Weller & Oasis.

Billy Bragg...

This is not a time for celebration. The death of Margaret Thatcher is nothing more than a salient reminder of how Britain got into the mess that we are in today.

Of why ordinary working people are no longer able to earn enough from one job to support a family; of why there is a shortage of decent affordable housing; of why domestic growth is driven by credit, not by real incomes; of why tax-payers are forced to top up wages; of why a spiteful government seeks to penalise the poor for having an extra bedroom; of why Rupert Murdoch became so powerful; of why cynicism and greed became the hallmarks of our society.

Raising a glass to the death of an infirm old lady changes none of this. The only real antidote to cynicism is activism. Don't celebrate - organise!

Whether you agree with him or not, at least he doesn't sound like a petulant teenager.

Also, can I just ask, at what point did Oasis become "protest singers"?
 
I really do respect Morrissey's words here, but I just don't have the right to comment, really. I was just a kid living in the USA during the time Thatcher was PM. I do remember seeing her on the news with President Reagan quite a bit, but that's about it. From what I've heard from others, and the fact that Ding Dong the Witch is Dead made it to #2 on the charts...well...that says a lot, right there, about what huge majority of the British public think and feel! As for Morrissey's statement, well, lots of people have been looking for this and expected no less. He's always been very outspoken against Thatcher and the Royals. I mean, who else remembers reading this man stood in front of Buckingham palace with a noose around his neck in the early 1980's...before he was famous?

Thank you. I'm right there as well. I only remember her on the TV with President Reagan.
 
Thanks for your kind words, Jaclove and HandThatRocksTheCradle :)

I guess no one else remembers the Noose and Palace story...hmmm...I'll have to dig through my books/magazines on a day I don't have so much to do and find that story. I know I read about that SOMEWHERE.
 
Who on earth would even attempt to wade through this sea of text? Go f*** yourself, Morrissey. You've really lost it.




16 April 2013

Surely how I feel is not nothing?

by Morrissey, 15 april 2013

I have listened and I have seen a lack of truth that we had dared not believe existed in modern Britain. Margaret Thatcher has left the order of the world, and she is not to blame for the reports of her own death - reports so dangerously biased and full of intolerant menace that we now wonder how we can possibly believe anything that has ever been recorded in British history books. The coverage by the British media of Thatcher's death has been exclusively absorbed in Thatcher's canonization to such a censorial degree that we suddenly see the modern British establishment as an uncivilized entity of delusion, giving the cold shoulder to truth, and offering indescribable disgust to anyone unimpressed by Thatcher. Even to contest Thatcher's worth is termed "anarchist", and this source of insanity - intolerant of debate, is spearheaded by the BBC reporting not on how things actually are on British streets, but on how they would prefer things to be. For those of us who survived despite Thatcherism, and who recall Thatcher as a living hell, The Daily Mail and The Guardian have a steadfast message for us: You are nothing. Our thoughts are further burdened by the taunting extravagance of Thatcher's funeral; the ceremonial lavish, the military salute, stripping Thatcher's victims of everything, and rubbing salt in wounds with teasing relish. It is all happening against us. In thought, we have killed Thatcher off a million times, but now that we have the reality of her death, the Metropolitan Police have set up new laws against us, and within paragraphs of law, we are not allowed to register our feelings so that anyone might overhear them. Echoes of Libya? Echoes of any Middle Eastern patch whose troubles are thought too uncivilized for a democratic England where chivalrous respect is afforded to "freedom", and where we are all servile to "democracy." It is, of course, The Big Lie. The fact that there will be such an enormous police presence at Thatcher's funeral is evidence that her name is synonymous with trouble - a trouble she brought on herself. No one wished for it, or brought it to her, yet she created her subtle form of anarchy nonetheless. BBC News will scantily report on anti-Thatcher demonstrations as if those taking part aren't real people. Lordly scorn is shown towards North Korea and Syria, and any distant country ruled by tyrannical means, yet the British government employs similar dictatorship tactics in order to protect their own arrogant interests. There will be no search for true wisdom this week, as the BBC gleefully report how Ding Dong the witch is dead "failed to reach number 1", and they repeat the word "failed" four times within the brief report, and a shivering sovereign darkness clouds England - such identifications known only in China. There will be no report as to how "the British people have succeeded in downloading Ding dong the witch is dead to number 2", and we are engulfed in Third Reich maneuvers as BBC Radio assume the role of sensible adult, finger-wagging at that naughty public who must not be allowed to hear the song that they have elected to number 2. By banning Ding dong the witch is dead (and only allowing four seconds of a song is, in fact, a ban) the BBC are effectively admitting that the witch in question can only possibly be Margaret Thatcher (and not Margaret Hamilton), even though Thatcher isn't mentioned in the song, which is in fact a harmless, children's song written over 70 years ago. Whilst the BBC tut-tut-tutted a polite disapproval at the Russian government for sending a "feminist punk" band to prison for recording an anti-government song, they engage in identical intolerance against Ding dong the witch is dead without a second's hesitation. Thatcher's funeral will be paid for by the public - who have not been asked if they object to paying, yet the public will be barred from attending. In their place, the cast are symbols of withering - as old as their prejudices, adroit at hiding Thatcher's disasters. Ancestry and posterity, trimmed with pageantry, will block out anyone with a gripe. David Cameron will cling to Thatcher as she clung to the Malvinas, each in their last-ditch efforts to survive obscurity. Cameron achieves his own conclusions without any regard for the appalling social record of The Thatcher Destroyer - the protestors outside are simply not being British, or, even worse, are probably from Liverpool. When Cameron talks he is simply speaking his part, but he is adamant that the scorn Thatcher poured onto others should not be returned to her. Her mourning family must have considerations that were never shown to the families of the Hillsborough victims, and although Thatcher willingly played her part in the Hillsborough cover-up, let's not go into all that now. Instead we're asked to show respect for a Prime Minister whose own Cabinet were her rivals. Thatcher's death gives added height to David Cameron (a Prime Minister who wasn't actually voted in by the British people, yet there he is – reminding us all of our manners), and he does not understand how the best reason for doing something is because there's nothing in it for you. The words of Cameron are assumed to have weight, yet his personal gain is the only reason why he speaks those words. Cameron tells us that the British people loved Thatcher, but we are all aware that Sunningdale and Chelsea are his Britain; he does not mean the people of Salford or Stockton-on-Tees, who are, in any case, somewhere north of Lord's Cricket Ground. Can the BBC possibly interview someone with no careerist gain attached to their dribble? No. On the day that nine British citizens are arrested in Trafalgar Square for voicing their objections to the Baroness, the BBC News instead offer their opening platform to Carol Thatcher, a dumped non-star of I'm a celebrity get me out of here, and to Sir Mark Thatcher (Sir!), unseen since the disgrace of his involvement in selling arms to countries at odds with Britain (magically, he avoided a 15-year prison term and was financially bailed out by his mother - her moral conscience nowhere in sight as Sir Mark patriotically took his 64 million and fled to Gibraltar having been refused entry to Switzerland and Monaco. What kind of mother raised such a son?) Both Mark and Carol get the BBC spotlight because they mourn their mother's death, whilst those honest civilians who mourn Thatcher's life are shunted out of view. This is how we see Syrian TV operate, and this is most certainly NOT a week when David Cameron will advise: "hug a hoodie." Whilst the quite astonishing social phenomenon of Ding Dong the witch is dead is ignored by the television news, instead we are shown an eight-minute clip of Psy, a funny little South Korean singer who is making all British newsreaders laugh with his funny little new video. Today, news items from South Korea, Belgium and China get precedence over homeland news of anti-Thatcher protests in Trafalgar Square, and the meaningless banality of Modern Media Britain casts a shameful shadow. Repeated and repeated, words strengthen. The truth sleeps as the heartlessness of Thatcher is re-written as a strength, for it was not exclusively because Thatcher destroyed the miners or murdered the boys of The Belgrano that we feel rage, but it was the lip-smacking relish with which she did both, and with which she sent armies of police to batter anyone who opposed her view. Gaddafi did the same thing in the same way. Thatcher could never show sympathy, or empathy, or understanding to those from whom David Cameron is now demanding a show of civil respect for a woman who, like Myra Hindley, proved to all of us that the female could be just as cruel as the male. By 1990 Thatcher was the gift that not even her own Cabinet wanted, and she was tufted out of office. How could such a catastrophic end warrant a statue in Trafalgar Square? Revenge was the vital juice of every move made by Thatcher, and her results produced the most dis-United Kingdom ever seen in history. Although Thatcher was never flesh, her demeanor took on an incurably demented sadness, and her broadcasting tones registered madness … as Britain burned. From all of this we see, in this April week of 2013, that modern media reporting in Britain is a disturbing fog of taboos and prejudices, reviving the divisions that Thatcher hatched, whilst hiding her horrors. Even in death, Thatcher remains 'the enemy within.'
And the truth sleeps.
 

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