Russell Brand

Luxo said:
Illegality depends on the context? A court and a good lawyer could argue that he was in a position of trust. In any case, considering he is alleged to have groomed her, whether she was 16 or not, he is still committing alleged crimes.
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If she consented then I would've through that is that. What do you mean by 'groomed?' Was he simpy too charming? Either the age of consent is 16 or it's not.
 
bhops said:
If she consented then I would've through that is that. What do you mean by 'groomed?' Was he simpy too charming? Either the age of consent is 16 or it's not.
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Someone can still appear to give consent and still be groomed. It's how grooming works - give the victim the impression that they are consenting to whatever they are being subject to, hiding the subtle (and sometimes overt) manipulation that is being used to groom the victim.
 
Luxo said:
Someone can still appear to give consent and still be groomed. It's how grooming works - give the victim the impression that they are consenting to whatever they are being subject to, hiding the subtle (and sometimes overt) manipulation that is being used to groom the victim.
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Then we are heading down a veeerrrryyy dangerous path. It basically means a woman who consents 'can' after a number of years deicide to reassess the relationship and claim a type of quasi rape through grooming.
 
Luxo said:
Someone can still appear to give consent and still be groomed. It's how grooming works - give the victim the impression that they are consenting to whatever they are being subject to, hiding the subtle (and sometimes overt) manipulation that is being used to groom the victim.
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Coercion, rape by coercion is a crime in a lot of places because it lacks consent
Sexual coercion is unwanted sexual activity that happens when you are pressured, tricked, threatened, or forced in a nonphysical way. Coercion can make you think you owe sex to someone. It might be from someone who has power over you, like a teacher, landlord, or a boss. No person is ever required to have sex with someone else.
 
bhops said:
Yeah the 'responsibility' clause LOL I had a quick look at David Bowie's official channel. Still up and going. I guess boinking underage fans is OK.
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I don't make the rules, I just complain about them
 
bhops said:
Then we are heading down a veeerrrryyy dangerous path. It basically means a woman who consents 'can' after a number of years deicide to reassess the relationship and claim a type of quasi rape through grooming.
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Yeah, you aren't saying anything new, and I'm guessing this is the first time you have heard of grooming, judging by your reaction?

It takes victims of sustained abuse and manipulation to realise they are being manipulated and abused because that's the whole point of grooming - don't give the victim a chance to realise what is happening to them. It often takes the victim speaking to someone else and meeting other people to understand that what happened to them. Case in point, the victims of grooming gangs (who were initially not believed by the authorities); victims of Jimmy Saville; and pretty much the victim(s) of any well organised paedophile.
 
Luxo said:
Yeah, you aren't saying anything new, and I'm guessing this is the first time you have heard of grooming, judging by your reaction?

It takes victims of sustained abuse and manipulation to realise they are being manipulated and abused because that's the whole point of grooming - don't give the victim a chance to realise what is happening to them. It often takes the victim speaking to someone else and meeting other people to understand that what happened to them. Case in point, the victims of grooming gangs (who were initially not believed by the authorities); victims of Jimmy Saville; and pretty much the victim(s) of any well organised paedophile.
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I've heard of grooming of course, I haven't been living under a rock. I just think if you want to relitigate a consensual relationship via a grooming charge you are potentially going down a very very dangerous path.
 
bhops said:
I've heard of grooming of course, I haven't been living under a rock. I just think if you want to relitigate a consensual relationship via a grooming charge you are potentially going down a very very dangerous path.
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Sex obtained by coercion is not sex obtained by consent, so there was not consent to begin with
 
bhops said:
I've heard of grooming of course, I haven't been living under a rock. I just think if you want to relitigate a consensual relationship via a grooming charge you are potentially going down a very very dangerous path.
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I mean, this how many grooming cases come about - relitigating on what the victim thought was a consensual relationship.

This is all besides the point though, because Brand hasn't been accused of subtle grooming, he has been accused of overt sexual assault and rape.
 
Luxo said:
I mean, this how many grooming cases come about - relitigating on what the victim thought was a consensual relationship.

This is all besides the point though, because Brand hasn't been accused of subtle grooming, he has been accused of overt sexual assault and rape.
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but drag queen story hour totally isnt grooming, right?!
 
bhops said:
From her story there didn't sound like much coercion to be honest.
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I can see how it's problematic, she was of age. Her mother did not approve. This is a parent who knew where her child was but felt powerless due to this being a legal arrangement, in that it was not against the law. Alice claims Brand taught her how to lie and manipulate the people around her so they would not know how much time she was spending with him. I think that's grooming, but she also says she enjoyed her time with him and felt special. She even refers to herself as a child. I think a 30 year old man has no business with a 16 year old, no matter what the law says and I think he has to assume the risk of entering into such a relationship. He did sexually assault her and that is where the real problem is, I don't think any allegations of grooming need to be proved in order to prove he engaged in criminal activity, should this go to trial. I do think the girl has some responsibility for the relationship but not the assault. At age 16, I would never date a 30 year old, I would expect sex to be part of the relationship and at 16 I honestly felt I was too young for sex and more adult things, I was just a teenager.
 
Redacted said:
I can see how it's problematic, she was of age. Her mother did not approve. This is a parent who knew where her child was but felt powerless due to this being a legal arrangement, in that it was not against the law. Alice claims Brand taught her how to lie and manipulate the people around her so they would not know how much time she was spending with him. I think that's grooming, but she also says she enjoyed her time with him and felt special. She even refers to herself as a child. I think a 30 year old man has no business with a 16 year old, no matter what the law says and I think he has to assume the risk of entering into such a relationship. He did sexually assault her and that is where the real problem is, I don't think any allegations of grooming need to be proved in order to prove he engaged in criminal activity, should this go to trial. I do think the girl has some responsibility for the relationship but not the assault. At age 16, I would never date a 30 year old, I would expect sex to be part of the relationship and at 16 I honestly felt I was too young for sex and more adult things, I was just a teenager.
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‘Alleged’ assault.
 
Redacted said:
I can see how it's problematic, she was of age. Her mother did not approve. This is a parent who knew where her child was but felt powerless due to this being a legal arrangement, in that it was not against the law. Alice claims Brand taught her how to lie and manipulate the people around her so they would not know how much time she was spending with him. I think that's grooming, but she also says she enjoyed her time with him and felt special. She even refers to herself as a child. I think a 30 year old man has no business with a 16 year old, no matter what the law says and I think he has to assume the risk of entering into such a relationship. He did sexually assault her and that is where the real problem is, I don't think any allegations of grooming need to be proved in order to prove he engaged in criminal activity, should this go to trial. I do think the girl has some responsibility for the relationship but not the assault. At age 16, I would never date a 30 year old, I would expect sex to be part of the relationship and at 16 I honestly felt I was too young for sex and more adult things, I was just a teenager.
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He also referred to her as "the child", allegedly, and allegedly told her to save his number as "Carly" in her phone - this is a clear act of grooming and coercion.
 
Luxo said:
He also referred to her as "the child", allegedly, and allegedly told her to save his number as "Carly" in her phone - this is a clear act of grooming and coercion.
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Yes, I do agree with those things, but I honestly can't get past the driver begging her not to go in and her mother disapproving and she went anyway. She was a participant. Like I said, I would never have dated a 30 year old at 16.
When I was that age, I had an after school job as a file clerk, with 2 other girls. There was this guy who worked there who was always asking us to come out with him and his friends, he was around 30. He seemed ancient to me at the time and he may have been married. The married part aside, we girls knew only a creeper who was up to no good would be asking us to go out with him and his friends, there should be some common sense that comes into play here.
 
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