Response to Arizona's New Law

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

Arizona is a weird place
the only people I know who live there are weirdoes that went there to get clean and stayed, when I have visited them its like they are in a different world than the kind of Arizona that makes laws like this, bans MLK day and is well, about as backward a place as one can find in America
a lot of good electronic music is made there though

 

[Flax]

Would you believe that I have NEVER once listened to Rush Limbaugh?

Actually, the woman who sent it to me is a die hard Liberal old enough to be my Mom (and that's pretty old).
I've known her since the Jimmy Carter years.

So we all agree that this email you received is just laughable BS, correct? She probably sent this out as some sort of obviously sarcastic, weird inside joke.

 

[Mars_Rover]

you people are grasping at straws. Lived in Arizona more than 5 years, and never met a Cuban.

Your point being? Come to South Florida, they're thick on the ground here.

Without doing a lot of research though, I remember one we DID send back, shamefully, and that was Elian Gonzales.

Why shamefully? We returned a 5-year old boy to his father, thus rescuing him from his crazy relatives who taunted the police into that SWAT-team response. They had numerous invitations to return the boy safely, which they defied. Police are funny like that, you know. If you defy court orders and say in effect, "Come and get me coppers!" they will.

To highlight the difference in how immigrants of different nationalities are treated, my Jamaican friend noticed that Lazaro Gonzalez, Elian's uncle, was a U.S. citizen, even though the man didn't speak a word of English. She bitterly told me that speaking English was a requirement of everyone who wanted to be a U.S. ctizen, except for Cubans who get a free pass apparently.

Political refugees, maybe; economic refugees just like almost every other immigrant, definitely. It's the material deprivation that Cubans mostly speak of; they come to the U.S. for opportunity. We deport the Chinese illegal immigrants back to China, but Cubans can stay. Their votes and their money carry a lot of clout. It's understandable but hardly fair. The immigration laws should be the same for everyone.

As for which Marielitos are being deported and why, I hope to God it's these horse-murdering, tax-dodging, freeloading scum of the earth:
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2010-0...c-9-basin-miami-dade-s-most-lawless-outpost/1

 

[Dave]

Your point being? Come to South Florida, they're thick on the ground here.

Well, the point is that this thread is about a law in Arizona.


"They're thick on the ground here"? Really? You wrote that in a thread where you're defending a racist law and representing yourself as a champion of equality?

Why shamefully? We returned a 5-year old boy to his father, thus rescuing him from his crazy relatives who taunted the police into that SWAT-team response. They had numerous invitations to return the boy safely, which they defied. Police are funny like that, you know. If you defy court orders and say in effect, "Come and get me coppers!" they will.

Why "shamefully"? Did you see the picture? There's a gun aimed at a child. "Taunting" the police should not result in guns being aimed at innocent children.

To highlight the difference in how immigrants of different nationalities are treated, my Jamaican friend noticed that Lazaro Gonzalez, Elian's uncle, was a U.S. citizen, even though the man didn't speak a word of English. She bitterly told me that speaking English was a requirement of everyone who wanted to be a U.S. ctizen, except for Cubans who get a free pass apparently.

Political refugees, maybe; economic refugees just like almost every other immigrant, definitely. It's the material deprivation that Cubans mostly speak of; they come to the U.S. for opportunity. We deport the Chinese illegal immigrants back to China, but Cubans can stay. Their votes and their money carry a lot of clout. It's understandable but hardly fair. The immigration laws should be the same for everyone.

Your friend "noticed" that Lazaro Gonzalez "can't speak a word of English'? That's not something that one would typically "notice", and I doubt it's true that he speaks no English. Assuming it was true it would be irrelevant for reasons we've already covered. Not sure the relevance that your friend is Jamaican either, but she seems to know things. Maybe she can tell you why a law that allows racial profiling by the police against Latinos would violate your principle of the laws being the same for everyone.

 

[Black Cloud]

Actually Mars Rover, your Jamaican friend is wrong about the English language requirement. Maybe you can show her this link and she won't be bitter anymore?

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=ffe2a3ac86aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

 

[Mars_Rover]

Actually Mars Rover, your Jamaican friend is wrong about the English language requirement. Maybe you can show her this link and she won't be bitter anymore?

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=ffe2a3ac86aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

Thanks, but she's not over 50 so it doesn't apply. Her English is fine actually, it was the principle of the thing.

 

[Mars_Rover]

Your friend "noticed" that Lazaro Gonzalez "can't speak a word of English'? That's not something that one would typically "notice", and I doubt it's true that he speaks no English.

Well see it was a big story in our area like, and during this round-the-clock news coverage, Lazaro and other family members had many opportunities to speak to the press, nearly all of which they took. And the man spoke only Spanish, never English, though he was reported in the newspaper to be a citizen. Which caused my friend to remark on the inequalities on how different standards are applied to this particular group of immigrants.

 

[Mars_Rover]

"They're thick on the ground here"? Really? You wrote that in a thread where you're defending a racist law and representing yourself as a champion of equality?

No more than you - who thinks "gringo" is humorous and not a derogatory term. Thick on the ground merely means there are a lot of them.

 

[Black Cloud]

Thanks, but she's not over 50 so it doesn't apply. Her English is fine actually, it was the principle of the thing.

What I meant was that maybe Elian's great uncle, who was pretty old, met the age requirement for exemption?

Being angry about people speaking Spanish in Miami is like being angry when it rains in England. Give up.

 

[Mars_Rover]

I'm well aware of that, thanks. No more than I would complain about the humidity or rude service: it's a fact of life. I've long since adjusted.

 

[Dave]

I'm well aware of that, thanks. No more than I would complain about the humidity or rude service: it's a fact of life. I've long since adjusted.

The people that serve you are rude? They can probably tell you'd like to have them deported.

 

[Mars_Rover]

The rudeness and aggression is trans-ethnic in Miami, it's our unifying feature. And you're a close-minded, ignorant person. Goodbye.

 

[Black Cloud]

The rudeness and aggression is trans-ethnic in Miami, it's our unifying feature. And you're a close-minded, ignorant person. Goodbye.

Good example of 305-style rudeness and aggression

 

[Dave]

The rudeness and aggression is trans-ethnic in Miami, it's our unifying feature. And you're a close-minded, ignorant person. Goodbye.

I asked you to enlighten me, and even looked for sources for the claims you were making. I've been trying to understand your point of view. Far from being closed-minded, I resisted the urge to draw conclusions about you from your posts. If the ideas you presented had no connection, then I am at fault for seeing one. But in this thread you have been for equality only when it served to further your own interests, and it was not possible for me to not see your comment about service as being a cliche along the lines of "you can't get good help anymore" as much as your talk of your Jamaican friend seemed to be saying, "Some of my best friends are ..." the type of statement one usually makes to attempt to assert one's own broadmindedness while at the same time aligning oneself with those that would, for example, "send all the (blacks) back to Africa."

So long.

 

[melodie]

It's not that hard to know what they are thinking. This started with a murder case where it appeared that the person who murdered a rancher fled to Mexico.

From the first link we get this:
"Investigators say they believe an illegal immigrant shot Krentz because he was overheard on the radio earlier Saturday saying to his brother "illegal immigrant" and "hurt." That was the last contact before law enforcement found him dead in his ATV later that night.

Search teams tracked footprints 20 miles south to the U.S./ Mexico border, but don't have any suspects."

The second link is a google search result showing that people (white people) flee to Mexico. Who knew? Anyone that has ever watched a few cowboy movies.

Anyway, that case of the murdered rancher, who may very well have been murdered by an "illegal" is what got this issue fired up in the first place. The evidence is sketchy, but we can say that is what happened. I'm not going to get into any speculation about it. Someone died and little is known about what led to it. It's unlikely that someone would come to the US to commit a random murder, but there are all sorts of possible scenarios. The point is, this is "what they were thinking."

It does no one any good to pretend that we can't see who the law is aimed at. But we don't have to debate that either. Let's say that it's aimed at Canadians if you prefer.

The point is, there are already laws that keep Canadians from coming here illegally. If these Canadians are stopped and do not have papers, well, unless they talk like these guys


they'll probably let you go. I carry ID pretty much all the time, but I don't have to, and someone in this country from Canada wouldn't have to, either, it's pretty safe to say.

But someone in this country from Mexico is ALREADY REQUIRED to have documents. That is the reason this law is simply a tool to justify police racial profiling. Before the law, they would need cause to pull over a US born Latino. Now, if they happened to pull over an undocumented immigrant without cause, it wouldn't really matter, because the person wouldn't be able to fight it. They would be in the system, in their way back to Mexico, and no one is going to be interested in hearing their side of the story. They are clearly in the wrong in the eyes of the law.

BUT, if the police had stopped a US citizen without cause, in violation of their rights, before this law, that person would have had a case. They would have had a means of recourse. What can happen now is that a US citizen can be stopped for no reason, and the police can say that they wanted to look at their papers. If this person is like many of us, and might have left their home without ID, they can now be arrested for that.

Do you see the problem? This law does not protect the border. This law does not prevent someone from getting emergency healthcare (and what's wrong with that anyway? we send billions in aid to other countries) this law exists for one reason. This law exists to allow the police to stop people who look like they might be from another country. There's no reason to pretend that means they are going to stop white people to see if they know the words to "Oh, Cananda."

Truth of the matter is that they could use this law to go after whomever they wish, regardless of their appearance. They used the peoples' fear and anger toward illegal immigrants to further erode our freedoms and inch us closer to a police state. The immigration laws are in place, but they aren't enforced. At least up here, illegal immigrants that commit crimes are seldom, if ever, deported.
And considering there is a huge number of people in SW US that is of hispanic descent, I think Arizona is shooting themselves in the foot by alienating them in such a way. Surrounding states are shying away from doing business in Arizona out of fear of their employees being harassed. Not to mention the fact that the enforcement of this law lies squarely on local law enforcement. So, while you're being robbed, don't be mad that all the cops are too busy looking at everyone's papers to get to you in time.

 

[Mars_Rover]

I asked you to enlighten me, and even looked for sources for the claims you were making. I've been trying to understand your point of view. Far from being closed-minded, I resisted the urge to draw conclusions about you from your posts. If the ideas you presented had no connection, then I am at fault for seeing one. But in this thread you have been for equality only when it served to further your own interests, and it was not possible for me to not see your comment about service as being a cliche along the lines of "you can't get good help anymore" as much as your talk of your Jamaican friend seemed to be saying, "Some of my best friends are ..." the type of statement one usually makes to attempt to assert one's own broadmindedness while at the same time aligning oneself with those that would, for example, "send all the (blacks) back to Africa."

So long.

Wow, you make a lot of assumptions - all of them wrong, as it turns out. The rude service and general aggression of Miamians is a widely ackowledged fact o' life here, it's nothing to do with a particular ethnicity, though I imagine all the transplanted New Yorkers had an influence (kidding). It wasn't a complaint, more of a wry observation. Read any Dave Barry column, you'll get the picture. I've never had "help" nor do I expect other people to have a serving/servile manner towards me. I'm a working-class person.

I brought up my Jamaican friend, as I explained, because she was someone who had been through the immigration process and knew the procedures. I didn't mention her because of her race, that is your deliberate misinterpretation (I even prefaced the part about her "to highlight the differences in how immigrants of different nationalities are treated..." How much clearer could it have been, or do you have reading comprehension issues?). You're not as objective as you claim. Anyone who disagrees with you on this issue is a racist - that is very clear from your posts.

Anyway, I saw an article this morning that answers the question you had about Mariels being deported, so I thought I would share:
The agreement [made during the Reagan administration] allows U.S. immigration authorities to deport certain Mariel Cubans convicted of crimes both in Cuba and within the United States. Other Cubans typically do not get deported to the island nation.
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/04/...rd-allows-for-deportations.html#ixzz0oTyRL4um

You're welcome.

I'm not sure what unsubstantiated claims I made in my previous posts that you refer to. Is it possible you really don't know that Cubans are treated differently than other migrants?

Cuban citizens are treated differently from other immigrants seeking a new home in the United States. Under America's "wet foot, dry foot" policy, any Cuban who reaches U.S. soil is automatically granted asylum. Those interdicted at sea are sent home. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100520/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_cuba_arizona_immigration

 

[Dave]

I was trying to see the connection between your posts. I avoided drawing any conclusions, actually, and compared to the way most of these discussions go, I felt I was pretty fair. Your Jamaican friend has an ax to grind because her immigration process was more difficult. I guessed that much. I still don't see how she could have noticed that someone "doesn't speak a word of English."

If you were in a situation like the one faced by Elian's family, and found yourself in the spotlight, you would speak your native language too. So don't talk about being fair, when you use language that skews what you assume to be the truth. The word "noticed" sounds very passive, or casual. Maybe you chose the word unconsciously, but it appeared to be there to disguise her lack of bias on the issue. I don't blame her for wanting to have an easier process, but the fact is, she's not an unbiased observer, and seeing a man speaking Spanish on news reports did not tell her that he does not speak a word of English.

You seemed to agree at one point that this Arizona law was aimed at Latinos. I'm still not sure if you understand that the Latinos it is going to affect most are legal US citizens. Your comment that there are some provisions in case the law is misused appears to say that you find this a tolerable situation. We'll just make this unfair law, and then when it's used blatantly unfairly, the people that it is used against, who are very likely to be poor people since these are the people the police will use the law against, can simply begin some process to have the officer's actions investigated, and everything will be fine. The reality is that accusing the police of abuse of power is something many people would be intimidated about. Besides the fact that no one wants to make enemies with a police officer, they are going to have the advantage in court.

Now moving on from that, what is the connection between a law in Arizona aimed at Mexican-Americans and Latinos in general, and the immigration laws for Cubans, and the fact that you feel there are possibly too many of them in Miami? The connection is that they are Latino, isn't it?

I've been very openminded. I've conceded that perhaps Arizona is worried about being invaded by Canadians, and if that were the case, I'd have a lot more sympathy!



I read your newspaper article. Here's the relevant section.

" As of last month, there were more than 30,000 Cuban nationals with final orders of deportation. These people would ostensibly be deported to Cuba once democracy reigns on the island.

But many with final deportation orders are growing increasingly nervous because of widespread rumors that the United States has begun to deport Cubans back to their homeland."

Pretty much what we covered above. Anyway, as a bonus, I found a video of your Jamaican friend.

 

[Mars_Rover]

She'd be wildly offended at the Miss Cleo stereotype! My friend does not speak in a broad Jamaican accent nor wear a do-rag on her head. If that's how you think Jamaicans look and act... you may be a racist.

I'm not sure why you're taking such umbrage about Lazaro Gonzalez not being able to speak English. That's by no means a rarity 'round these parts. Several of my friends' parents don't speak English and they've been here since the 60's.

And no, before your little lap dog chimes in, it doesn't bother me. If it did, I would move.

 

[Black Cloud]

She'd be wildly offended at the Miss Cleo stereotype! My friend does not speak in a broad Jamaican accent nor wear a do-rag on her head. If that's how you think Jamaicans look and act... you may be a racist.

I'm not sure why you're taking such umbrage about Lazaro Gonzalez not being able to speak English. That's by no means a rarity 'round these parts. Several of my friends' parents don't speak English and they've been here since the 60's.

And no, before your little lap dog chimes in, it doesn't bother me. If it did, I would move.

Actually, I'm not Dave's lap dog. That's the one in his avatar. I might, however, be your next door neighbor.

 

[Dave]

She'd be wildly offended at the Miss Cleo stereotype! My friend does not speak in a broad Jamaican accent nor wear a do-rag on her head. If that's how you think Jamaicans look and act... you may be a racist.

I'm not sure why you're taking such umbrage about Lazaro Gonzalez not being able to speak English. That's by no means a rarity 'round these parts. Several of my friends' parents don't speak English and they've been here since the 60's.

And no, before your little lap dog chimes in, it doesn't bother me. If it did, I would move.

You said she's a Jamaican psychic. Have a sense of humor, since you can't carry on a dialog. Miss Cleo was not Jamaican anyway. It was an act. But she currently offers private psychic consultations and other services through Wahgwaan Entertainment, based in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

Tell me the connection between the Arizona law and Cubans. Otherwise we might as well watch Trailer Park Boys and Miss Cleo commercials.

And I'm not a racist. Some of my best friends speak English.