Recession is on... Market slides again...

S

suzanne

Guest
Re: and you got yr economics degree from....where?

> Yeah, because they probably want/have 2 cars, a cell phone, a DVD player,
> premium cable TV, $5.00 daily lattes at Starbucks, dining out at
> restaurants once or twice per week, etc. This is how the MIDDLE CLASS is
> living, and to me that is very rich living. The majority of Americans have
> jumped up to a higher level of wealth over the past 15 years, and that's
> just objective fact.

and i want you to go up to where i work at and tell all of these college graduates who are making less than $10 an hour your brilliant revelation. What would you say to them? You obviously know something that they don't.

And i'm so glad that you think that poor people only deserve to stare at a crack on the wall all day long as entertainment. I personally own a 13" TV with no cable, a VHS player i got for christmas, a computer that was half paid for thanks to christmas, and my 5 year old stereo which i got for graduation from college because my mom was tired of looking at my boom box. all of my furniture is hand-me-down or the stuff i had growing up. I don't buy new clothing that often as i have some shorts/outfits i've been wearing for years. I go to a movie maybe about once a week if i'm lucky, but usually will go for a month or more before i see something. I don't have a car payment because i basically lucked into that. I like coffeehouses, but i don't really go to those that often, and its usually only $1.50 for tea, which isn't bad considering i spend absolutely no money on carbonated beverages there or to stock around my house. I don't eat meat, so that chops my food bill considerably, and i take my lunch to work most of the time, and i dont like going out to eat that much. yeah, i travel some, but usually once a year and i go the cheapest route. I buy a CD,about once or twice a month, and haven't been to a venue that had cover in months, and i don't ring up a bar tab anywhere i go.

and its not that i discipline myself. its simply how i live.

and yet, even after all that, my savings account doesn't really seem to grow. where exactly have i spoiled myself with this supposed american dream?

> The gulf between the richest and the rest may be wide,
> but your statement was that "the poor got poorer," and that's
> false, invented in your head. The poor got richer. The middle class got
> richer. And the rich got way richer.

yeah, maybe on the planet you live on called "Loafing oaf speaking from his ass because he is a flaming idiot" but for the rest of us, who can crack open books and newspapers and read they all basically come to the same conclusion about the growing disparity of wealth in the US and it comes from more reliable sources than Rush Limbaugh and see that no, its not all in our head that we aren't making a whole lot of money....
 
S

Strangeways

Guest
Re: That's why American economy is a mess... LMQAO (Laughing My Queer Ass Off)

Trying learn how to spell Aryan, and then try looking up who they are.
You might get a big suprise!

-emi

> Sorry for a pun, LWF, but now I know why ... American economy is a mess
> now...
> Ciao, my Arian L-U-V... LOL
 
T

The Last White Fan

Guest
Re: question

As with most respectable universities and academic institutions, I have been lucky enough to have professors, who have been CFOs of Fortune 500 companies, Ambassadors, Economic advisors to US Senate comities, successful currency speculators, I have had to work on projects where I had to interview the current head of AT&T China, The Prime Minister of Thailand. I have also interviewed Margaret Thatcher (Side note: In a personal moment of self indulgence at the end of the interview I asked her about what she thought of Morrissey) I have had a fairly robust education in Economics and by no means claim to be an end all authority, the core of all political decisions steam from 90% economic reasons and 10% psychology. They why I find it so fascinating that there is such a diversity in global politics, economics is a field of study that is rich in debate that’s why I love it so much!

LWF

> A bull shit in economics? what?

> maybe i should pity you. you're taught by people who have never actually
> been in the real world, or if they have been in the real world, they have
> most likely been at the disposal of some incredibly rich company.

> but why am i arguing this? i've read your diatribe on the mexicans. you
> pull stuff out of your ass anyway. why should this be any different?
 
T

The Last White Fan

Guest
Re: and you got yr economics degree from....where?

A lot of what you are describing is due to a lack of personal responsibility
The post WWII era generations of the late 40s and 50s were fiscally responsible
They did not have credit cards with mega debt, they did not have all kinds of electronic gizmos to waste their money on, and they didn’t use the telephone much. They wrote letters. They didn’t eat meat everyday, usually once a week on Sunday. They lived in an industrial economy (not a service based economy like we have in the US today)

So, I see very little difference in turning a screw in a factory than flipping a burger.
A major factor in why the lower class US is doing so badly is the fact they are fucking stupid! They run out and spend a weeks pay on designer jeans and overpriced makeup. They buy cars on credit, and live way beyond their means, and find time selves trapped in endless credit card debt and interest payments. They have no concepts of inflation and make no plans for retirement.

Grant it, we live in a society and constantly harasses you to BUY BUY BUY, well shut of the damm TV, quit trying to be like the kids on “Friends” and make a little personal sacrifice like the previous generations did, and you will be fine.

On thing I do think is also a factor is the lack of education in this nation, if you want a good education you have to go to a private high school and the public universities that offer a quality education are a bitch to get into.

Remember when they use to teach home economics in school, well they should return to that, I would seriously enjoy at 20% tax increase to improve education in this nation and abolish the top heavy administration costs.

The average Jr. College president in California makes about 150k
And does nothing to show for it, end these type of jobs NOW!
You could pay 2 grade school teachers 75k yr and be able to attract a much higher quality teacher with that kind of money.

As for Michael Moore, I find him highly entertaining, but keep in mind he is just an entertainer, he twists facts and doesn’t show the big picture. He is big on using the division fallacy by taking a thin slice of data and tries to apply to the whole picture, he is very good at it and I find him to be very enjoyable, but not so factual.

LWF

> i got my economic's degree from the school of "been there, done
> that".

> i'm sure you could remember a time when one income could support a family.
> I have a college degree and can't imagine that what i earn would support
> anyone else except myself. Many people where i work at have creditors
> calling them or they have second jobs.

> the trickle down theory doesn't work. companies who were making record
> profits were still laying off people and having wage freezes. The money
> stays with one small group--the upper management--while everyone else is
> wondering how they are going to pay their bill that month.

> most brand new jobs created are fast food and retail. That's barely above
> minimum wage and with no benefits. How do those jobs benefit anyone?

> also, read micheal moore's "stupid white men" if you are looking
> for figures.
 
F

Fox in the Snow

Guest
You got me, ARYAN girl.

> Trying learn how to spell Aryan, and then try looking up who they are.
> You might get a big suprise!
Aryans were an Indian upper caste or something like that? Hey, I read books too, even if I'm of inferior "undermenschen Juden" race... Yet, for majority of peoples word "Aryan" is associated with Nazi... Cause Hoebbels built his Nazi Propaganda machine upon Aryan Supremacy Nietzche theories...
OK, you got me, girl, I made a stupid grammatic mistake. However this sad fact unfortunately does not make LWF more appealing and less racist personality... Also Frau Emi, how was your date with LWF? Did you folks have a good Judenrein Negro-free time? Did you go to Authentic German restaurant... I hope no Jews and Mexicans or other "dirty peoples" had spoilt your wonderful white date... Cheers, Fraulin Emi, and stay an happy ARYAN... enjoying your eurocentric dirty-peoples free culture. Zig Hail!

Hey, just bein' ironic!

> -emi
Fox
 
A

An observer

Guest
Small correction

Nietzsche's philosophy, which was indeed drafted into the service of the Nazis long after his death in 1900, was not itself anti-Semitic.

Although few ideas in Nietzsche can be easily isolated and extracted from the rest of the elements of his complex and often difficult philosophy, most of Nietzsche's scholars agree that he was strongly against both anti-Semites and German nationalism. He would have disagreed in the strongest terms with the appropriation of his ideas by Hitler and his cronies.

For what it's worth, at the end of the "sane" period in his life, Nietzsche told one of his good friends that, as a personal favor, he would like to have had all the anti-Semites shot (letter dated January 6, 1889).

Just a friendly clarification, Fox.
 
F

Fox in the Snow

Guest
Re: Small correction

> Nietzsche's philosophy, which was indeed drafted into the service of the
> Nazis long after his death in 1900, was not itself anti-Semitic.

> Although few ideas in Nietzsche can be easily isolated and extracted from
> the rest of the elements of his complex and often difficult philosophy,
> most of Nietzsche's scholars agree that he was strongly against both
> anti-Semites and German nationalism. He would have disagreed in the
> strongest terms with the appropriation of his ideas by Hitler and his
> cronies.

> For what it's worth, at the end of the "sane" period in his
> life, Nietzsche told one of his good friends that, as a personal favor, he
> would like to have had all the anti-Semites shot (letter dated January 6,
> 1889).
Thanks, observer... your post gave me an different angle about Nietzsche's ideas.. I was not really attentive to nuances in my post above, I was just trying to drive the point home for Miss Emi that for huge majority of modern-day public, word "Aryan" for right or wrong, is associated with Nazis or White Supremacists... not with upper-caste Indians...

Also, what book or two would you recommend to me about Nietzsche and his teaching...? I guess both Nietzsche and Richard Wagner took some unfair beating by PC-types, even so their ideas were articulated long before 1933... and those ideas were re-shaped and re-interpreted by Nazis to suit their ideological and purely opportunistic political agenda... Yet Richard Wagner was very outspoken, verbally and in his written word, in his suspicion of so-called alien Jewish influence in German music... And, while I'm definitely informed much less then you about Nietzsche and about German philosophy in general, I can't help but ask... Didn't he blamed Judaism and Christianity, which historically grew from Jewish monotheism and from the legacy of the Old Testament, for all what's wrong in the world? Again, your book recommendations would be really appreciated...

> Just a friendly clarification, Fox.
Sure.
 
G

Grim O'Grady

Guest
soap box time (again)

> What's goin' on...? Will mister Bush Jr Administration realize that
> country's domestic affairs are as important as fight with terrorism...
> Enron... worldcom scandals... So far, Bush Jr is repeating his dad
> mistakes in focusing on foreign affairs exclusively and forgetting that
> quite a few Americans now are either jobless or their life savings going'
> up in smoke... Well, as long as we all have our pennies and dimes for Moz
> coming tour, we are cool... Personally, I perhaps would afford one or two
> shows... ok, maybe three... Damn it... The other day I went to Burger King
> (Horrors!), but I ordered vegeterian burger... it tasted kind of ok...
> well, let's tighten up our belts... and prepare for what, better or
> worse???... Opinions, folks???

G.W.B. is a governmental politician (a nasty breed of species - We have them over here too) to save his own arse (ass) he will divert attention by any means necessary, so by going around the world playing at Mr Big diverts the attention of the masses from seeing what shit is happening in their own back yards. I recall not so long ago that they (U.S. & U.K. etc forces) going to get that evil doer Bin Laden, no problems with that, just bothered with the murder of the innocents along the way, btw did they manage to track down & bring to justice OBL? Unemployment is a natural process of Capitalism, in order to make greater profits they have to lower the labour costs, so by creating unemployment it means somewhere around our globe they have cheaper labour. Also the Anarchy of market forces inevitaby leads to flooding of the market of products i.e. check out how much vcr's cost in the 80's compared to today, likewise the dvd systems of a year ago to today. The products costs are still the same but their profitabilty isn't, it's the same Anarchical approach to medicine, the company that comes up with the A.I.D.S. cure will be quids (dollars) in, but surely if all the chemical companies worked in unison a cure could be found much sooner but no it's the profit margin not human life that counts.
Capitalism & recession go hand in glove, check out the history over the last couple of hundred years.
love
Grim O'Grady
 
M

moz d impaler

Guest
Re: soap box time (again)

> G.W.B. is a governmental politician (a nasty breed of species - We have
> them over here too) to save his own arse (ass) he will divert attention by
> any means necessary, so by going around the world playing at Mr Big
> diverts the attention of the masses from seeing what shit is happening in
> their own back yards. I recall not so long ago that they (U.S. & U.K.
> etc forces) going to get that evil doer Bin Laden, no problems with that,
> just bothered with the murder of the innocents along the way, btw did they
> manage to track down & bring to justice OBL? Unemployment is a natural
> process of Capitalism, in order to make greater profits they have to lower
> the labour costs, so by creating unemployment it means somewhere around
> our globe they have cheaper labour. Also the Anarchy of market forces
> inevitaby leads to flooding of the market of products i.e. check out how
> much vcr's cost in the 80's compared to today, likewise the dvd systems of
> a year ago to today. The products costs are still the same but their
> profitabilty isn't, it's the same Anarchical approach to medicine, the
> company that comes up with the A.I.D.S. cure will be quids (dollars) in,
> but surely if all the chemical companies worked in unison a cure could be
> found much sooner but no it's the profit margin not human life that
> counts.
> Capitalism & recession go hand in glove, check out the history over
> the last couple of hundred years.
> love
> Grim O'Grady
bush wacked delbert ogrady
 
A

An observer

Guest
Nietzsche

Well, Fox, first a caveat: I'm no Nietzsche expert, nor a student of philosophy. Merely an enthusiastic dilettante. So this is really a "man in the street" recommendation-- although I am not, like the man in the street, a cunt, though I type excessively long posts.

If you want the best introduction to Nietzsche's work, I recommend "The Portable Nietzsche" (Viking). Walter Kaufmann, pretty much the best Nietzsche scholar out there, translated the works in the volume, and it includes "Twilight of the Idols" and "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", among others. Virtually any of Nietzsche's books would be extraordinary to read, but TPN has many of them under one cover. If you want an individual work, then I recommend "Zarathustra", which is difficult but highly enjoyable.

Along the lines of a general introduction to Nietzsche, there are probably several out there that might be very good, but there's one in particular that I would recommend, mainly because it contains so much else that is brilliant and insightful, and deals specifically with Nietzsche's (and German philosophy's) influence on America: "The Closing Of The American Mind" by Allan Bloom. It's nothing less than the most profound work of non-fiction I've ever read. As someone who is passionately interested in American democracy, Fox, I think you'd love the book. Since I read it two years ago I've purchased and given away about eight or nine copies to friends. Bloom was hailed as a kindred spirit by Right-wing conservatives when the book was a best-seller, in the late 1980s, but if you read it carefully you'll note that there are numerous critiques of the Right as well as the Left. Bloom himself was no Republican stoolie-- he was a dandy and a homosexual, as his good friend Saul Bellow recently told the world in the excellent "Ravelstein" (Bloom died of AIDS in 1992). At any rate, it has a wonderful thumbnail sketch of Nietzsche's ideas.

The only advice I can give to a new Nietzsche reader is to read as much as you can, because you have to be able to put together a lot of different (and sometimes *seemingly* self-contradictory) ideas. In other words, if it isn't clear, or seems confusing, keep reading and eventually it will come around to a better picture; Nietzsche's philosophy is voluminous, varied and sometimes tongue-in-cheek. And don't forget to enjoy yourself: for all his verbal brutality, Nietzsche can be uproariously funny.

You asked two questions. One, about Wagner. I am entirely unfamiliar with Wagner, except that, in relation to Nietzsche, the latter was at first an ardent supporter and then, famously, an ardent detractor. In fact, he wrote "Nietzsche contra Wagner" to outline his objections. As I have yet to read that, I can't say for sure what they were. However, it is clear that Nietzsche broke from Wagner in no uncertain terms and, as I explained in my earlier post, he was assuredly not an anti-Semite. So, if Wagner indeed bemoaned the Jewish influence on German music, I doubt that Nietzsche would have backed him up, or, if he did, he would have done so with serious qualifications.

To reiterate something from my earlier post, Nietzsche's position on Judaism is not as clear as one would like, but it is pretty much universally accepted that he was *not* an anti-Semite. Casting it in modern terms, Fox, I'd say he was aggressively un-P.C. about it, but you kind of know where he stands. He likes arousing indignation in his audience in order to stir thought, a strategy adopted by that certain talk show host you like! And, if you read about the passionate individualism in "Zarathustra", you'll understand that there's simply no way he would have supported Hitler's Reich. Other than these generalizations, I can't offer much more information about Nietzsche and Wagner.

Question number two is equally difficult to answer, but I will try. From my readings of Nietzsche, particularly passages in "Beyond Good and Evil", Nietzsche had a rather venomous hatred of Christianity, which he called a "slave's religion" because of, among other things, its insistence on guilt and sorrow as means of keeping social and cultural order. So, to the extent that Christianity is derived from Judaism, he despises it. Then again, it is also clear that he viewed the Jewish diaspora as an important "event" that ennobled the Jewish culture far beyond Christianity, and Moses he considered a great man-- a genius, a creator of values, and a prototype of his own Zarathustra.

As you said, Nietzsche hated monotheism, but simply because he didn't believe in "a" God or "the" God-- he identified the importance (and mourned the modern obfuscation) of the religious impulse in men, but didn't privilege one interpretation or historically worshipped deity over another. Myths were important for him because men need myths, though not because the myths actually corresponded to any "real" deity or deities. Everyone knows Nietzsche said "God is dead"-- but Nietzsche was making an observation, not voicing a wish (the second part of the sentence is "And we have killed him"). The murder had been committed earlier, by other hands. What he saw in God's absence was a gaping void, an abyss, and he attempted to create a philosophy that would fill that void. Western rationalism had killed God, and Nietzsche, while having no desire to resurrect Him, knew that people still needed Him, even if they professed otherwise.

So, basically, you can say that, yes, Nietzsche did not like Judaism, but keep in mind that he loathed all religions (though he reserves a special bile duct for Christianity).

For that reason, Nietzsche is not so palatable to those who still believe in the old religions. I don't know if you've said which religion you belong to, if any, but I know you are part Jewish. If you believe in God, you will disagree vehemently with Nietzsche. His philosophy, absorbed whole, is a recipe for the complete overthrow of everything you hold sacred. On the other hand, it is important-- as Bloom convincingly argues-- to understand Nietzsche and the role he plays, even to this day, in Western culture, be it directly or through the influence of his various descendants (Freud, Weber, Heidegger and others).

I tend to read Nietzsche in the second light-- to grasp his importance and his influence, not necessarily because I believe it all (he is incredibly radical and his ideas are almost impossible to live by). How relevant is it? Well, you can see it in Morrissey, for instance-- and in pop music in general. The artifically constructed rock and roll god is a kind of Zarathustra, a blazing deity dancing over an abyss, handing down the new commandments. Have you seen "Velvet Goldmine" or even "Hedwig And The Angry Inch"? In various ways they play out some of the ideas in Nietzsche. You'll see his ghost in Lou Reed and David Bowie, too. And yeah, he's hiding in the run-out grooves of a certain batch of Rough Trade records.

Of course, we don't associate rock and roll with Nietzsche, but that's the fascinating thing-- his influence is all around us, just disguised or palliated in some way. He is one of the key Western thinkers, and once you read his stuff and know what to look for, you'll see there's practically no end to his reach in Western culture (one point to make, apropos Morrissey, is that Nietzsche, a confirmed aesthete, has many interesting parallels to Oscar Wilde, who also argued, in less severe and less strenuous terms, for the ascendancy of the genius who would create values for society). Socrates and Nietzsche are, if you will, the Alpha and the Omega of Western thought-- two hugely influential philosophers at different ends of the spectrum.

The difficult questions to answer are, what, exactly, are the impact and extent of Nietzsche's influence? And more importantly, is it a salutary influence? I haven't sussed out the answers myself, yet, but so far the search has been highly rewarding. Maddening, too: his legacy is intimidatingly ambiguous.

I hope you'll read Nietzsche, Fox, because I think you'd cotton to him. Again, not necessarily because you'd swallow his quasi-religious philosophy, but because he had a voracious soul whose dominant passion was individualism. Interestingly, as it concerns the average Morrissey fan, his philosophy is both a strong vindication and explicit rebuke of Morrissey's art-- demonstrating, if nothing else, the dynamic vitality of the music.

Awhile back I made a selection of some of my favorite quotes from "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", and I include them below. Perhaps they will intrigue you enough to buy some of his books.

Take care.

==================================

selections from "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" (1883-1884)
Friedrich Nietzsche

You look up when you feel the need for elevation. And I look down because I am elevated. Who among you can laugh and be elevated at the same time? Whoever climbs the highest mountains laughs at all tragic plays and tragic seriousness.

Brave, unconcerned, mocking, violent-- thus wisdom wants us: she is a woman and always loves only a warrior.

You say to me, "Life is hard to bear." But why would you have your pride in the morning and your resignation in the evening? Life is hard to bear; but do not act so tenderly! We are all of us fair beasts of burden, male and female asses. What do we have in common with the rosebud, which trembles because a drop of dew lies on it?

True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.

And to me too, as I am well disposed toward life, butterflies and soap bubbles and whatever among men is of their kind seem to know most about happiness. Seeing these light, foolish, delicate, mobile little souls flutter-- that seduces Zarathustra to tears and songs.

I would believe only in a god who could dance. And when I saw my devil I found him serious, thorough, profound, and solemn: it was the spirit of gravity-- through him all things fall.

Not by wrath does one kill but by laughter. Come, let us kill the spirit of gravity!

I have learned to walk: ever since, I let myself run. I have learned to fly: ever since, I do not want to be pushed before moving along.

Now I am light, now I fly, now I see myself beneath myself, now a god dances through me.

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

(First Part)

***

When your heart flows broad and full like a river, a blessing and a danger to those living near: there is the origin of your virtue.

When you are above praise and blame, and your will wants to command all things, like a lover's will: there is the origin of your virtue.

When you despise the agreeable from the soft bed and cannot bed yourself far enough from the soft: there is the origin of your virtue.

When you will with a single will and you call this cessation of all need "necessity": there is the origin of your virtue.

Verily, a new good and evil is she. Verily, a new deep murmur and the voice of a new well!

Power is she, this new virtue; a dominant thought is she, and around her a wise soul: a golden sun, and around it the serpent of knowledge.

(First Part)

***

ON THE SPIRIT OF GRAVITY
1

My tongue is of the people: I speak too crudely and heartily for Angora rabbits. And my speech sounds even stranger to all ink-fish and pen-hacks.

My hand is a fool's hand: beware, all tables and walls and whatever else still offer room for foolish frill or scribbling skill.

My foot is a cloven foot; with it I trample and trot over sticks and stones, crisscross, and I am happy as the devil while running so fast.

My stomach-- is it an eagle's stomach? For it likes lamb best of all. Certainly it is the stomach of some bird. Nourished on innocent things and on little, ready and impatient to fly, to fly off-- that happens to be my way: who could there not be something of the bird's way in that? And above all, I am an enemy of the spirit of gravity, that is the bird's way-- and verily, a sworn enemy, archenemy, primordial enemy. Oh, where has not my enmity flown and misflown in the past?

Of that I could well sing a song-- and will sing it, although I am alone and in an empty house and must sing it to my own ears. There are other singers, of course, whose throats are made mellow, whose hands are made talkative, whose eyes are made expressive, whose hearts are awakened, only by a packed house. But I am not like those.

2

He who will one day teach men to fly will have moved all boundary stones; the boundary stones themselves will fly up into the air before him, and he will rebaptize the earth-- "the light one".

The ostrich runs faster than the fastest horse, but even he buries his head gravely in the grave earth; even so, the man who has not yet learned to fly. Earth and life seem grave to him; and thus the spirit of gravity wants it. But whoever would become light and a bird must love himself: thus I teach.

Not, to be sure, with the love of the wilting and wasting: for among those even self-love stinks. One must learn to love oneself-- thus I teach-- with a wholesome and healthy love, so that one can bear to be with oneself and need not roam. Such roaming baptizes itself "love of the neighbor": with this phrase the best lies and hypocrisies have been perpetrated so far, and especially by such as were a grave burden for all the world.

And verily, this is no command for today and tomorrow, to learn to love oneself. Rather, it is of all arts the subtlest, the most cunning, the ultimate, and the most patient. For whatever is his own is well-concealed from the owner; and of all treasures, it is our own that we dig up last: thus the spirit of gravity orders it.

We are presented with grave words and values almost from the cradle: "good" and "evil" this gift is called. For its sake we are forgiven for living.

And therefore one suffers little children to come unto one-- in order to forbid them betimes to love themselves: thus the spirit of gravity orders it.

And we-- we carry faithfully what one gives us to bear, on hard shoulders and over rough mountains. And should we sweat, we are told: "Yes, life is a grave burden." But only man is a grave burden for himself! That is because he carries on his shoulders too much that is alien to him. Like a camel, he kneels down and lets himself be well loaded. Especially the strong, reverent spirit that would bear much: he loads too many alien grave words and values on himself, and then life seems a desert to him.

And verily, much that is our own is also a grave burden! And much that is inside man is like an oyster: nauseating and slippery and hard to grasp, so that a noble shell with a noble embellishment must plead for it. But this art too one must learn: to have a shell and shiny sheen and shrewd blindness. Moreover, one is deceived about many things in man because many a shell is shabby and sad and altogether too much shell. Much hidden graciousness and strength is never guessed; the most exquisite delicacies find no tasters. Women know this-- the most exquisite do: a little fatter, a little slimmer-- oh, how destiny lies in so little!

Man is hard to discover-- hardest of all for himself: often the spirit lies about the soul. Thus the spirit of gravity orders it. He, however, has discovered himself who says, "This is my good and evil"; with that he has reduced to silence the mole and dwarf who say, "Good for all, evil for all."

Verily, I also do not like those who consider everything good and this world the best. Such men I call omni-satisfied. Omni-satisfaction, which knows how to taste everything, that is not the best taste. I honor the recalcitrant choosy tongues and stomachs, which have learned to say "I" and "yes" and "no". But to chew and digest everything-- that is truly the swine's manner. Always to bray Yea-Yuh-- that only the ass has learned, and whoever is of his spirit.

Deep yellow and hot red: thus my taste wants it; it mixes blood into all colors. But whoever whitewashes his house betrays a whitewashed soul to me. Some in love with mummies, the others with ghosts, and both alike enemies of all flesh and blood-- oh, how both offend my taste. For I love blood.

And I do not want to reside and abide where everybody spits and spews: that happens to be my taste; rather I would live among thieves and perjurers. Nobody has gold in his mouth. Still more revolting, however, I find all lickspittles; and the most revolting human animal that I found I baptized "parasite": it did not want to love and yet it wanted to live on love.

Cursed I call all who have only one choice: to become evil beasts or evil tamers of beasts; among such men I would not build my home.

Cursed I call those too who must always wait; they offend my taste: all the publicans and shopkeepers and kings and other land- and storekeepers. Verily, I too have learned to wait-- thoroughly-- but only to wait for myself. And above all I learned to stand and walk and run and jump and climb and dance. This, however, is my doctrine: he who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance: one cannot fly into flying. With rope ladders I have learned to climb to many a window; with swift legs I climbed high masts; and to sit on high masts of knowledge seemed to me no small happiness: to flicker like small flames on high masts-- a small light only and yet a great comfort for shipwrecked sailors and castaways.

By many ways, in many ways, I reached my truth: it was not one ladder that I climbed to the height where my eye roams over my distance. And it was only reluctantly that I ever inquired about the way: that always offended my taste. I preferred to question and try out the ways themselves.

A trying and questioning was my every move; and verily, one must also learn to answer such questioning. That, however, is my taste-- not good, not bad, but my taste of which I am no longer ashamed and which I have no wish to hide.

"This is my way; where is yours?"-- thus I answered those who asked me "the way." For the way-- that does not exist.

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

(Third Part)

***

And this is the second point: he who cannot obey himself is commanded. That is the nature of the living.



And life itself confided this secret to me: "Behold," it said, "I am that which must always overcome itself. Indeed, you call it a will to procreate or a drive to an end, to something higher, farther, more manifold: but all this is one, and one secret.

"Rather would I perish than forswear this; and verily, where there is perishing and a falling of leaves, behold, there life sacrifices itself-- for power. That I must be struggle and a becoming and an end and an opposition to ends-- alas, whoever guesses what is my will should also guess on what crooked paths it must proceed.

"Whatever I create and however much I love it-- soon I must oppose it and my love; thus my will wills it. …"



And may everything be broken that cannot brook our truths! There are yet many houses to be built!

Thus spoke Zarathustra

(Second Part)

***

Night has come: alas, that I must be light! And thirst for the nocturnal! And loneliness!

Night has come: now my craving breaks out of me like a well; to speak I crave.

Night has come; now all fountains speak more loudly. And my soul too is a fountain.

Night has come; now all the songs of lovers awaken. And my soul too is the song of a lover.

Thus sang Zarathustra.

(Second Part)
 
S

Shrong

Guest
Re: Nietzsche, Kant, and modern art

Hello, I find a little hard to a person who is not used to read philosophy, to start these sort of readings. I started myself reading Kant, especially because he was one of the main influence on Clement Greenberg, but surely this is not what I could call "piece of cake". For starters is good a kind of help into philosophy. My teacher, who is a critic, and teachs esthetics and history of art to us has helped me with some terms and specific ideas. She recommended me to read Nietzche, Kant and Freud (Freud is not very into the topic). Another one I find quite interesting is Voltaire, who wrote very beautiful and "easy" stuff for starters.

> Well, Fox, first a caveat: I'm no Nietzsche expert, nor a student of
> philosophy. Merely an enthusiastic dilettante. So this is really a
> "man in the street" recommendation-- although I am not, like the
> man in the street, a cunt, though I type excessively long posts.

> If you want the best introduction to Nietzsche's work, I recommend
> "The Portable Nietzsche" (Viking). Walter Kaufmann, pretty much
> the best Nietzsche scholar out there, translated the works in the volume,
> and it includes "Twilight of the Idols" and "Thus Spoke
> Zarathustra", among others. Virtually any of Nietzsche's books would
> be extraordinary to read, but TPN has many of them under one cover. If you
> want an individual work, then I recommend "Zarathustra", which
> is difficult but highly enjoyable.

> Along the lines of a general introduction to Nietzsche, there are probably
> several out there that might be very good, but there's one in particular
> that I would recommend, mainly because it contains so much else that is
> brilliant and insightful, and deals specifically with Nietzsche's (and
> German philosophy's) influence on America: "The Closing Of The
> American Mind" by Allan Bloom. It's nothing less than the most
> profound work of non-fiction I've ever read. As someone who is
> passionately interested in American democracy, Fox, I think you'd love the
> book. Since I read it two years ago I've purchased and given away about
> eight or nine copies to friends. Bloom was hailed as a kindred spirit by
> Right-wing conservatives when the book was a best-seller, in the late
> 1980s, but if you read it carefully you'll note that there are numerous
> critiques of the Right as well as the Left. Bloom himself was no
> Republican stoolie-- he was a dandy and a homosexual, as his good friend
> Saul Bellow recently told the world in the excellent
> "Ravelstein" (Bloom died of AIDS in 1992). At any rate, it has a
> wonderful thumbnail sketch of Nietzsche's ideas.

> The only advice I can give to a new Nietzsche reader is to read as much as
> you can, because you have to be able to put together a lot of different
> (and sometimes *seemingly* self-contradictory) ideas. In other words, if
> it isn't clear, or seems confusing, keep reading and eventually it will
> come around to a better picture; Nietzsche's philosophy is voluminous,
> varied and sometimes tongue-in-cheek. And don't forget to enjoy yourself:
> for all his verbal brutality, Nietzsche can be uproariously funny.

> You asked two questions. One, about Wagner. I am entirely unfamiliar with
> Wagner, except that, in relation to Nietzsche, the latter was at first an
> ardent supporter and then, famously, an ardent detractor. In fact, he
> wrote "Nietzsche contra Wagner" to outline his objections. As I
> have yet to read that, I can't say for sure what they were. However, it is
> clear that Nietzsche broke from Wagner in no uncertain terms and, as I
> explained in my earlier post, he was assuredly not an anti-Semite. So, if
> Wagner indeed bemoaned the Jewish influence on German music, I doubt that
> Nietzsche would have backed him up, or, if he did, he would have done so
> with serious qualifications.

> To reiterate something from my earlier post, Nietzsche's position on
> Judaism is not as clear as one would like, but it is pretty much
> universally accepted that he was *not* an anti-Semite. Casting it in
> modern terms, Fox, I'd say he was aggressively un-P.C. about it, but you
> kind of know where he stands. He likes arousing indignation in his
> audience in order to stir thought, a strategy adopted by that certain talk
> show host you like! And, if you read about the passionate individualism in
> "Zarathustra", you'll understand that there's simply no way he
> would have supported Hitler's Reich. Other than these generalizations, I
> can't offer much more information about Nietzsche and Wagner.

> Question number two is equally difficult to answer, but I will try. From
> my readings of Nietzsche, particularly passages in "Beyond Good and
> Evil", Nietzsche had a rather venomous hatred of Christianity, which
> he called a "slave's religion" because of, among other things,
> its insistence on guilt and sorrow as means of keeping social and cultural
> order. So, to the extent that Christianity is derived from Judaism, he
> despises it. Then again, it is also clear that he viewed the Jewish
> diaspora as an important "event" that ennobled the Jewish
> culture far beyond Christianity, and Moses he considered a great man-- a
> genius, a creator of values, and a prototype of his own Zarathustra.

> As you said, Nietzsche hated monotheism, but simply because he didn't
> believe in "a" God or "the" God-- he identified the
> importance (and mourned the modern obfuscation) of the religious impulse
> in men, but didn't privilege one interpretation or historically worshipped
> deity over another. Myths were important for him because men need myths,
> though not because the myths actually corresponded to any "real"
> deity or deities. Everyone knows Nietzsche said "God is dead"--
> but Nietzsche was making an observation, not voicing a wish (the second
> part of the sentence is "And we have killed him"). The murder
> had been committed earlier, by other hands. What he saw in God's absence
> was a gaping void, an abyss, and he attempted to create a philosophy that
> would fill that void. Western rationalism had killed God, and Nietzsche,
> while having no desire to resurrect Him, knew that people still needed
> Him, even if they professed otherwise.

> So, basically, you can say that, yes, Nietzsche did not like Judaism, but
> keep in mind that he loathed all religions (though he reserves a special
> bile duct for Christianity).

> For that reason, Nietzsche is not so palatable to those who still believe
> in the old religions. I don't know if you've said which religion you
> belong to, if any, but I know you are part Jewish. If you believe in God,
> you will disagree vehemently with Nietzsche. His philosophy, absorbed
> whole, is a recipe for the complete overthrow of everything you hold
> sacred. On the other hand, it is important-- as Bloom convincingly
> argues-- to understand Nietzsche and the role he plays, even to this day,
> in Western culture, be it directly or through the influence of his various
> descendants (Freud, Weber, Heidegger and others).

> I tend to read Nietzsche in the second light-- to grasp his importance and
> his influence, not necessarily because I believe it all (he is incredibly
> radical and his ideas are almost impossible to live by). How relevant is
> it? Well, you can see it in Morrissey, for instance-- and in pop music in
> general. The artifically constructed rock and roll god is a kind of
> Zarathustra, a blazing deity dancing over an abyss, handing down the new
> commandments. Have you seen "Velvet Goldmine" or even
> "Hedwig And The Angry Inch"? In various ways they play out some
> of the ideas in Nietzsche. You'll see his ghost in Lou Reed and David
> Bowie, too. And yeah, he's hiding in the run-out grooves of a certain
> batch of Rough Trade records.

> Of course, we don't associate rock and roll with Nietzsche, but that's the
> fascinating thing-- his influence is all around us, just disguised or
> palliated in some way. He is one of the key Western thinkers, and once you
> read his stuff and know what to look for, you'll see there's practically
> no end to his reach in Western culture (one point to make, apropos
> Morrissey, is that Nietzsche, a confirmed aesthete, has many interesting
> parallels to Oscar Wilde, who also argued, in less severe and less
> strenuous terms, for the ascendancy of the genius who would create values
> for society). Socrates and Nietzsche are, if you will, the Alpha and the
> Omega of Western thought-- two hugely influential philosophers at
> different ends of the spectrum.

> The difficult questions to answer are, what, exactly, are the impact and
> extent of Nietzsche's influence? And more importantly, is it a salutary
> influence? I haven't sussed out the answers myself, yet, but so far the
> search has been highly rewarding. Maddening, too: his legacy is
> intimidatingly ambiguous.

> I hope you'll read Nietzsche, Fox, because I think you'd cotton to him.
> Again, not necessarily because you'd swallow his quasi-religious
> philosophy, but because he had a voracious soul whose dominant passion was
> individualism. Interestingly, as it concerns the average Morrissey fan,
> his philosophy is both a strong vindication and explicit rebuke of
> Morrissey's art-- demonstrating, if nothing else, the dynamic vitality of
> the music.

> Awhile back I made a selection of some of my favorite quotes from
> "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", and I include them below. Perhaps they
> will intrigue you enough to buy some of his books.

> Take care.

> ==================================

> selections from "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" (1883-1884)
> Friedrich Nietzsche

> You look up when you feel the need for elevation. And I look down because
> I am elevated. Who among you can laugh and be elevated at the same time?
> Whoever climbs the highest mountains laughs at all tragic plays and tragic
> seriousness.

> Brave, unconcerned, mocking, violent-- thus wisdom wants us: she is a
> woman and always loves only a warrior.

> You say to me, "Life is hard to bear." But why would you have
> your pride in the morning and your resignation in the evening? Life is
> hard to bear; but do not act so tenderly! We are all of us fair beasts of
> burden, male and female asses. What do we have in common with the rosebud,
> which trembles because a drop of dew lies on it?

> True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are
> used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also
> always some reason in madness.

> And to me too, as I am well disposed toward life, butterflies and soap
> bubbles and whatever among men is of their kind seem to know most about
> happiness. Seeing these light, foolish, delicate, mobile little souls
> flutter-- that seduces Zarathustra to tears and songs.

> I would believe only in a god who could dance. And when I saw my devil I
> found him serious, thorough, profound, and solemn: it was the spirit of
> gravity-- through him all things fall.

> Not by wrath does one kill but by laughter. Come, let us kill the spirit
> of gravity!

> I have learned to walk: ever since, I let myself run. I have learned to
> fly: ever since, I do not want to be pushed before moving along.

> Now I am light, now I fly, now I see myself beneath myself, now a god
> dances through me.

> Thus spoke Zarathustra.

> (First Part)

> ***

> When your heart flows broad and full like a river, a blessing and a danger
> to those living near: there is the origin of your virtue.

> When you are above praise and blame, and your will wants to command all
> things, like a lover's will: there is the origin of your virtue.

> When you despise the agreeable from the soft bed and cannot bed yourself
> far enough from the soft: there is the origin of your virtue.

> When you will with a single will and you call this cessation of all need
> "necessity": there is the origin of your virtue.

> Verily, a new good and evil is she. Verily, a new deep murmur and the
> voice of a new well!

> Power is she, this new virtue; a dominant thought is she, and around her a
> wise soul: a golden sun, and around it the serpent of knowledge.

> (First Part)

> ***

> ON THE SPIRIT OF GRAVITY
> 1

> My tongue is of the people: I speak too crudely and heartily for Angora
> rabbits. And my speech sounds even stranger to all ink-fish and pen-hacks.

> My hand is a fool's hand: beware, all tables and walls and whatever else
> still offer room for foolish frill or scribbling skill.

> My foot is a cloven foot; with it I trample and trot over sticks and
> stones, crisscross, and I am happy as the devil while running so fast.

> My stomach-- is it an eagle's stomach? For it likes lamb best of all.
> Certainly it is the stomach of some bird. Nourished on innocent things and
> on little, ready and impatient to fly, to fly off-- that happens to be my
> way: who could there not be something of the bird's way in that? And above
> all, I am an enemy of the spirit of gravity, that is the bird's way-- and
> verily, a sworn enemy, archenemy, primordial enemy. Oh, where has not my
> enmity flown and misflown in the past?

> Of that I could well sing a song-- and will sing it, although I am alone
> and in an empty house and must sing it to my own ears. There are other
> singers, of course, whose throats are made mellow, whose hands are made
> talkative, whose eyes are made expressive, whose hearts are awakened, only
> by a packed house. But I am not like those.

> 2

> He who will one day teach men to fly will have moved all boundary stones;
> the boundary stones themselves will fly up into the air before him, and he
> will rebaptize the earth-- "the light one".

> The ostrich runs faster than the fastest horse, but even he buries his
> head gravely in the grave earth; even so, the man who has not yet learned
> to fly. Earth and life seem grave to him; and thus the spirit of gravity
> wants it. But whoever would become light and a bird must love himself:
> thus I teach.

> Not, to be sure, with the love of the wilting and wasting: for among those
> even self-love stinks. One must learn to love oneself-- thus I teach--
> with a wholesome and healthy love, so that one can bear to be with oneself
> and need not roam. Such roaming baptizes itself "love of the
> neighbor": with this phrase the best lies and hypocrisies have been
> perpetrated so far, and especially by such as were a grave burden for all
> the world.

> And verily, this is no command for today and tomorrow, to learn to love
> oneself. Rather, it is of all arts the subtlest, the most cunning, the
> ultimate, and the most patient. For whatever is his own is well-concealed
> from the owner; and of all treasures, it is our own that we dig up last:
> thus the spirit of gravity orders it.

> We are presented with grave words and values almost from the cradle:
> "good" and "evil" this gift is called. For its sake we
> are forgiven for living.

> And therefore one suffers little children to come unto one-- in order to
> forbid them betimes to love themselves: thus the spirit of gravity orders
> it.

> And we-- we carry faithfully what one gives us to bear, on hard shoulders
> and over rough mountains. And should we sweat, we are told: "Yes,
> life is a grave burden." But only man is a grave burden for himself!
> That is because he carries on his shoulders too much that is alien to him.
> Like a camel, he kneels down and lets himself be well loaded. Especially
> the strong, reverent spirit that would bear much: he loads too many alien
> grave words and values on himself, and then life seems a desert to him.

> And verily, much that is our own is also a grave burden! And much that is
> inside man is like an oyster: nauseating and slippery and hard to grasp,
> so that a noble shell with a noble embellishment must plead for it. But
> this art too one must learn: to have a shell and shiny sheen and shrewd
> blindness. Moreover, one is deceived about many things in man because many
> a shell is shabby and sad and altogether too much shell. Much hidden
> graciousness and strength is never guessed; the most exquisite delicacies
> find no tasters. Women know this-- the most exquisite do: a little fatter,
> a little slimmer-- oh, how destiny lies in so little!

> Man is hard to discover-- hardest of all for himself: often the spirit
> lies about the soul. Thus the spirit of gravity orders it. He, however,
> has discovered himself who says, "This is my good and evil";
> with that he has reduced to silence the mole and dwarf who say, "Good
> for all, evil for all."

> Verily, I also do not like those who consider everything good and this
> world the best. Such men I call omni-satisfied. Omni-satisfaction, which
> knows how to taste everything, that is not the best taste. I honor the
> recalcitrant choosy tongues and stomachs, which have learned to say
> "I" and "yes" and "no". But to chew and
> digest everything-- that is truly the swine's manner. Always to bray
> Yea-Yuh-- that only the ass has learned, and whoever is of his spirit.

> Deep yellow and hot red: thus my taste wants it; it mixes blood into all
> colors. But whoever whitewashes his house betrays a whitewashed soul to
> me. Some in love with mummies, the others with ghosts, and both alike
> enemies of all flesh and blood-- oh, how both offend my taste. For I love
> blood.

> And I do not want to reside and abide where everybody spits and spews:
> that happens to be my taste; rather I would live among thieves and
> perjurers. Nobody has gold in his mouth. Still more revolting, however, I
> find all lickspittles; and the most revolting human animal that I found I
> baptized "parasite": it did not want to love and yet it wanted
> to live on love.

> Cursed I call all who have only one choice: to become evil beasts or evil
> tamers of beasts; among such men I would not build my home.

> Cursed I call those too who must always wait; they offend my taste: all
> the publicans and shopkeepers and kings and other land- and storekeepers.
> Verily, I too have learned to wait-- thoroughly-- but only to wait for
> myself. And above all I learned to stand and walk and run and jump and
> climb and dance. This, however, is my doctrine: he who would learn to fly
> one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance:
> one cannot fly into flying. With rope ladders I have learned to climb to
> many a window; with swift legs I climbed high masts; and to sit on high
> masts of knowledge seemed to me no small happiness: to flicker like small
> flames on high masts-- a small light only and yet a great comfort for
> shipwrecked sailors and castaways.

> By many ways, in many ways, I reached my truth: it was not one ladder that
> I climbed to the height where my eye roams over my distance. And it was
> only reluctantly that I ever inquired about the way: that always offended
> my taste. I preferred to question and try out the ways themselves.

> A trying and questioning was my every move; and verily, one must also
> learn to answer such questioning. That, however, is my taste-- not good,
> not bad, but my taste of which I am no longer ashamed and which I have no
> wish to hide.

> "This is my way; where is yours?"-- thus I answered those who
> asked me "the way." For the way-- that does not exist.

> Thus spoke Zarathustra.

> (Third Part)

> ***

> And this is the second point: he who cannot obey himself is commanded.
> That is the nature of the living.

> …

> And life itself confided this secret to me: "Behold," it said,
> "I am that which must always overcome itself. Indeed, you call it a
> will to procreate or a drive to an end, to something higher, farther, more
> manifold: but all this is one, and one secret.

> "Rather would I perish than forswear this; and verily, where there is
> perishing and a falling of leaves, behold, there life sacrifices itself--
> for power. That I must be struggle and a becoming and an end and an
> opposition to ends-- alas, whoever guesses what is my will should also
> guess on what crooked paths it must proceed.

> "Whatever I create and however much I love it-- soon I must oppose it
> and my love; thus my will wills it. …"

> …

> And may everything be broken that cannot brook our truths! There are yet
> many houses to be built!

> Thus spoke Zarathustra

> (Second Part)

> ***

> Night has come: alas, that I must be light! And thirst for the nocturnal!
> And loneliness!

> Night has come: now my craving breaks out of me like a well; to speak I
> crave.

> Night has come; now all fountains speak more loudly. And my soul too is a
> fountain.

> Night has come; now all the songs of lovers awaken. And my soul too is the
> song of a lover.

> Thus sang Zarathustra.

> (Second Part)
 
L

LoafingOaf

Guest
Usama is gettin' butt raped by 72 pigs in hell

>I recall not so long ago that they (U.S. & U.K.
> etc forces) going to get that evil doer Bin
>Laden...did they manage to track down & bring
>to justice OBL?

Check out this interesting essay, Grim:

Bin Laden No Longer Exists: Here Is Why
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=16637
Notable excerpt:
=======
Bin Laden is the known face of a particular brand of politics that committed suicide in New York and Washington on Sept.11, 2001, killing thousands of innocent people in the process.
=======

Don't worry, there's no point in you and me goin' round and round. = )

Just consider this as well:

http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=648871&in_review_text_id=619891

Notable excerpt:
=======
Britain's emergency services lack the capabilities to cope with a massive terrorist attack on the scale of September 11, MPs warn.
=======

Since the U.K. is probably #3 on the terrorists' target list, maybe you
should consider that your Prime Minister may already have prevented
a devastatingly mass-murderous attack on your friends and neighbors.
 
G

Grim O'Grady

Guest
peace of mind

The ira blow up Manchester in 1996, nobody got killed so have our emergency services got that much worse in 6 yrs? Maybe so, this govt needs to invest more in public services & stop wasting our tax money on killing people over in the middle east etc. Do you know in hospitals over here they have 'bring & buy' sales to raise funds to enable them to save lives, crazy isn't it? How about we turn this crazy system on it's head & have 'bring & buy' sales to raise money for weapons to go kill people & we fully fund hospitals to save lives.
Simple eh?
love
Grim O'Grady
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
> For all of you older then Greasetea & Improper:
> Second day in a row market slides
> Today, Friday July 19

> DOW -4.64%
> NASDAQ -2.79% (here goes hi-tech for ya, damn)
> S&P -3.84%

This site is the absolutely worst site to come to and engage in anything in regards to political/economic issues. There is very little informed debate, and much too much emotional bantering.

As you may have already heard, the market had one of its largest elevations in 15 years today. Now, this doesn't mean that the anxiety has passed, or that the economy is completely out of the woods, but calling doomsday on anything in regards to the stockmarket is a fairly naive practice. The market can fall and rise in smatterings. Trends are relevant, which is why predictions are often heeded, but the economy is not in a recession, and it just took a rise that is indicative of a recovery.

> What's goin' on...? Will mister Bush Jr Administration realize that
> country's domestic affairs are as important as fight with terrorism...
> Enron... worldcom scandals... So far, Bush Jr is repeating his dad
> mistakes in focusing on foreign affairs exclusively and forgetting that
> quite a few Americans now are either jobless or their life savings going'
> up in smoke... Well, as long as we all have our pennies and dimes for Moz
> coming tour, we are cool... Personally, I perhaps would afford one or two
> shows... ok, maybe three... Damn it... The other day I went to Burger King
> (Horrors!), but I ordered vegeterian burger... it tasted kind of ok...
> well, let's tighten up our belts... and prepare for what, better or
> worse???... Opinions, folks???

I'm no fan of Bush, and certainly there is room for massive amounts of criticism in general. However, the market did what it is suppossed, which is counteract the imbalances created by failure and so on. Certainly there needs to be harsh penalties for those manipulators, but crooked CEO's are hardly Bushes fault. How he handles them now is his game, but these organizations failed, and other businesses will take their place.

Again, the doomsday prophets were proven wrong again, by todays showing, and grdualism will liekly assert itself, as it almost always does.

It's sad really to imagine the numebr of politcally ideological individuals who are awaiting the next great catastrophe in order to claim righteousness.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Re: soap box time (again)

"Capitalism & recession go hand in glove, check out the history over the last couple of hundred years.
love Grim O'Grady"

As does Statism to perpetual ineffeciency and the status quo.
 
L

LoafingOaf

Guest
Re: peace of mind

> The ira blow up Manchester in 1996, nobody got killed so have our
> emergency services got that much worse in 6 yrs? Maybe so, this govt needs
> to invest more in public services & stop wasting our tax money on
> killing people over in the middle east etc. Do you know in hospitals over
> here they have 'bring & buy' sales to raise funds to enable them to
> save lives, crazy isn't it? How about we turn this crazy system on it's
> head & have 'bring & buy' sales to raise money for weapons to go
> kill people & we fully fund hospitals to save lives.
> Simple eh?
> love
> Grim O'Grady

So, your government should invest all its resources in cleaning up the
body parts after a terrorist strike rather than do something to prevent
them in the first place? I guess you don't know how much our governments
have gained from all those freaks we've got caged in Cuba, etc.

Anyway, I see the terrorists are threatening to assasinated the new
leader of Afghanistan. Boy it hurts them to see someone trying
to push a muslim country out of the dark ages....
 
G

Grim O'Grady

Guest
I've been listening to Eminem

> So, your government should invest all its resources in cleaning up the
> body parts after a terrorist strike rather than do something to prevent
> them in the first place? I guess you don't know how much our governments
> have gained from all those freaks we've got caged in Cuba, etc.

I've no problem with them hunting down terrorists, it's the bloody innocent people they kill along the way that pisses me off.

> Anyway, I see the terrorists are threatening to assasinated the new
> leader of Afghanistan. Boy it hurts them to see someone trying
> to push a muslim country out of the dark ages....

by that do you mean the mass bombing campaign that has fucked up an already fucked up country?

love, peace & gravy

the Grim O'Grady
 
L

LoafingOaf

Guest
Re: I've been listening to Eminem

You should be listening to Wyclef Jean's "Masquerade" instead, because Eminem is totally a masquerade, living in his gated suburban rich folk community outside Detroit. "Gangsta"? Hahahaha! What a kidder for the kiddies!

> I've no problem with them hunting down terrorists, it's the bloody
> innocent people they kill along the way that pisses me off.

Yes, rather than sending a squad car into Afghanistan with arrest warrants,
we're gutting the terror network, and this pleases me. I don't want my water poisoned, sorry!
There has only been one Al Quaeda attack since 9/11, in Kashmir. Oh how frustrated the caged terrorist freaks in Cuba must be!

> by that do you mean the mass bombing campaign that has fucked up an
> already fucked up country?

Translated, this means you find Mr. Karzai worse than the Taliban. Wow. Meanwhile people are scrambling to rebuild a nation, now that they have some hope for the future.
 
T

There's no debate!

Guest
In The Name Of?????

ANTI-TERRORISM STRATEGIES AND PROTECTING HUMAN RIGHTS
The choice is not between security and freedom but between a world in which human rights are universally respected and one in which no one is safe.

Australia
Antiterrorism legislation before the Federal Parliament includes proposals to allow the attorney general to proscribe certain groups and reduce rights for suspects in custody. Stricter asylum legislation was expedited after 9/11.

Austria
In October a Vienna court ordered the extradition of an Egyptian asylum-seeker at serious risk of torture if repatriated. The Austrian Supreme Court had refused his extradition in 1999.

Belarus
A law passed in December permits search of homes and offices without prior judicial authority. It allows the head of an antiterrorist operation to regulate media activities near such operations.

Bosnia-Herzegovina
The government extradited six Algerians to the U.S., defying a ruling from Bosnia's Human Rights Chamber. Troops from the international Stabilization Force reportedly detained incommunicado men of Middle Eastern origin.

Canada
The December antiterrorism act improved on earlier drafts, but risks of criminalizing peaceful activity and of unfair trials remain. Another new law hinders asylum applications. On April 29 the government presented a bill on public safety under which the armed forces could declare “controlled access zones” wherever military equipment is kept.

China
After 9/11 Beijing intensified its crackdown on Uighur opponents of Chinese rule in Xinjiang, claiming they are linked to “international terrorism.” Officials have reportedly detained thousands and placed new restrictions on the religious rights of Muslims. On December 29 China amended its criminal law to “punish terrorist crimes, ensure national security and uphold social order.”

Colombia
In February President Andres Pastrana resumed the civil war in which all sides have committed atrocities. He announced that rebels would be treated as terrorists “[a]nd in that, the world supports us.” The Constitutional Court ruled as unconstitutional an August national security law that would have strengthened impunity by giving police and judicial powers to armed forces in conflict zones. Candidates in the May 26 presidential election proposed further measures, and new security legislation is likely.

Cuba
An expanded antiterrorism law passed on December 20 reaffirmed the death penalty in the most extreme cases.

Denmark
Under a proposed amendment to the penal code, lawyers and counselors of suspects risk being seen as assisting terrorism. Proposed amendments to the Aliens Act would permit refusal of residence permits on grounds not only of state security but also of public order, security, and health.

Egypt
Since 9/11 more civilians have been referred to military courts that violate fundamental requirements of international law and standards for fair trial. Egyptian Prime Minister Atef Abeid said, “After these horrible crimes committed in New York and Virginia, maybe Western countries should begin to think of Egypt’s own fight against terror as their new model.”

France
Two Islamic radicals were deported to Algeria, where they may face severe abuse. The October Law on Everyday Security strengthens government search and surveillance powers.

Germany
New legislation expands grounds for rejecting asylum claims and enables banning groups that “support organizations in or out of Germany that cause, threaten or practice assaults against persons or things or if they are a danger to public order and security.”

Greece
Denial of access to asylum procedures.

Hungary
After 9/11, Afghan asylum seekers were removed from open reception centers to special high security detention facilities.

India
The March Prevention of Terrorism Act allows police to hold suspects for three months without charge— and for three additional months with approval from a special court. It contradicts the Indian Evidence Act by making confessions to a police officer admissible at trial. It also criminalizes journalists or other professionals for meeting with any member of a “terrorist organization,” whatever the purpose.

Indonesia
The Minister of Justice and Human Rights announced that a proposed antiterrorism bill to be submitted to the House of Representatives includes sentences that range from five years to death for disrupting security and damaging public facilities. Israel/Occupied Territories After 9/11, Israeli forces stepped up military operations in the Occupied Territories. On Sept. 14 Defense Minister Binyamin Ben Elizier said, “It is a fact that we have killed 14 Palestinians in Jenin, Kabatyeh and Tammum, with the world remaining absolutely silent.”

Italy
A planned reform of the security services includes authorization for agents to break the law during operations authorized for reasons of state security by the head of government.

Jordan
Amendments to the penal code in October expanded “terrorism” to include damaging the environment; public, private, or international organizations; or diplomatic missions. The amendments also strengthened powers toshut any publication deemed to have published false or libelous information that could “undermine national unity or the country's reputation.”

Kazakstan
Kazakstan expelled more than 1,000 Tajik and Kyrgyz migrants after September 11. Local human rights monitors are concerned that many deportees had no access to due process.

Kyrgyzstan
Authorities, citing security reasons, stepped up efforts to deport undocumented residents. As of October 2, they had expelled 300 people, mostly Tajiks and Afghans. Some had been living in Kyrgyzstan for 20 years or more; some were refugees from the Tajik civil war of the 1990s.

Macedonia
The Interior Ministry announced that seven men of South Asian appearance killed by the Macedonian police on March 2 were Pakistani Islamists who died in a shootout. The ministry offered no conclusive evidence for its claims that the men were planning attacks on Western embassies and were linked to local Albanian organizations. Other government sources told reporters that no police were injured in the incident, no cartridges or bullets were found at the site, and the weapons allegedly seized there showed no sign of having been fired.

Malaysia
Since September 2001 the Internal Security Act of 1960 has been used to detain at least 40 Malaysians accused of links to “international terrorism.” The act allows detention without trial.

Mauritius
“Acts of terrorism” as defined in new legislation may be interpreted to undermine fundamental rights. The law also allows authorities to deny asylum to those suspected of “international terrorism.”

Nepal
After the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) withdrew from peace talks with the government and attacked police and army posts in November, the government declared a state of emergency and promulgated the Terrorism and Disruptive Activities Ordinance. Dozens of people, including lawyers, students, teachers, and journalists have been arrested under the law, which allows preventive detention for up to 90 days, or 180 days with Home Ministry approval.

New Zealand
Local human rights organizations are concerned that the draft antiterrorism bill could criminalize legitimate protest, designate people as terrorists without a trial, and give the authorities more power to spy on citizens.

Pakistan
The January Antiterrorism Amendment Ordinance will undermine judicial independence by bringing military officers onto panels of judges trying “terrorist” offenses. These antiterrorist courts impose most of Pakistan’s death sentences. Since 9/11 the government has attempted to suppress demonstrations by religious parties.

Philippines
Human rights groups report indiscriminate mass arrests and torture of suspected members of and sympathizers with the Abu Sayyaf Group, which allegedly has links to Al Qaeda. After an April 21 bombing killed 15 people, President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo asked Congress to pass the pending antiterrorism bill. Currently, foreign “terrorist” suspects are detained indefinitely under old immigration law.

Russia
Officials cited the global fight against “terrorism” to counter criticism of summary executions, torture, and arbitrary arrests in Chechnya. Since 9/11 at least one person a week has disappeared in Chechnya after arrest by Russian forces.

Singapore
Thirteen suspected Islamic militants received two-year detention orders under the Internal Security Act, which allows detention without charge or trial.

South Africa
The draft antiterrorism bill could criminalize strikes and attempts by non-violent demonstrators to deliver a petition to a foreign embassy. The bill also provides for detention without trial and for wider police powers to search vehicles.

South Korea
The Terrorism Prevention Bill would extend the death penalty to leaders of a “terrorist organization.” It could also deny asylum-seekers a fair and satisfactory appeals procedure.

Spain
A government-proposed law regulating political activism could ban political parties that encourage “hatred, violence, and social confrontation”; challenge the legitimacy of democratic institutions; or “promote a culture of civil confrontation.” The law is aimed at Batasuna, the political wing of the Basque separatist movement, ETA.

Sweden
Two Egyptian asylum-seekers were forcibly returned to Egypt in December 2001 after their claims were rejected in an unfair procedure.

Thailand
In March Thai police detained 25 foreigners at the request of U.S. agencies. A senior police officer said the U.S. had requested more arrests as part of a joint operation against “international terrorism.” Initial investigations showed the 25 detaineees had no connection to “terrorist networks.”

Uganda
The March Antiterrorism Act introduces a mandatory death sentence for convicted terrorists. Publishing news “likely to promote terrorism” can lead to a 10-year prison sentence.

UK
The Antiterrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 permits indefinite detention of non-UK nationals without charge or trial if the home secretary reasonably believes and suspects they are a national security risk and an “international terrorist.” The belief and suspicion may be based on secret evidence.

USA
More than 1,000 people, most from Middle Eastern or Muslim countries, were arrested after 9/11; some 300 may remain in detention. The October USA Patriot Act allows indefinite detention of non-deportable, non-U.S. citizens if the attorney general has “reasonable grounds to believe” they are engaged in terrorist activities or endanger national security. On November 15 President George Bush issued a Military Order that non-U.S. nationals accused of terrorism could be tried by military commissions; this order infringes on rights to a fair trial.

Uzbekistan
The government is justifying its crackdown on peaceful Muslims under a campaign against the armed opposition Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. In late September nine suspected members of Hizb-ut-Tahrir, an Islamist group not implicated in violent acts, were sentenced to long prison terms. Human rights observers said that one of the charges—“having links to Osama bin Laden”—was not backed by convincing evidence at the trial.

Yemen
Following 9/11 the government carried out widespread arrests of members of Islamist organizations and anyone who had aroused official suspicion, including a man alleged to be Osama bin Laden's father-in-law. The government also closed down some Islamic educational institutions and deported foreign students.

Zimbabwe
In the run-up to the March presidential elections, President Robert Mugabe labeled his opponents “terrorists,” thus appearing to condone violent attacks by his supporters on his political opponents. The January Public Order Security Act allows police to ban demonstrations and criminalizes criticism of the police, army, and president. A new Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act allows the government to ban newspapers and imprison journalists for articles that portray the government in a negative light.

European Union
A proposed comprehensive action plan, dubbed an “antiterrorism road map,” envisages legislation on a European arrest warrant, an EU-wide definition of terrorism, an EU public prosecutions agency, an EU mechanism for freezing suspects' assets, examination of immigration and asylum laws, and a mechanism to prosecute computer crime. The definition of terrorism is broad enough to criminalize peaceful activities.

The Arab League
In January Arab Ministers of the Interior agreed on measures to “combat terrorism” and pledged to implement the Arab Convention for the Suppression of Terrorism. It defines “terrorism” so broadly that it is open to abuse. It widens the scope of the death penalty in many countries.
 
G

Grim O'Grady

Guest
welcome to Iraq

> You should be listening to Wyclef Jean's "Masquerade" instead,
> because Eminem is totally a masquerade, living in his gated suburban rich
> folk community outside Detroit. "Gangsta"? Hahahaha! What a
> kidder for the kiddies!

I used the eminem subject to say that my post contains strong language. f*** eminem & wyclef, they don't understand me, not like you.

> Yes, rather than sending a squad car into Afghanistan with arrest
> warrants,
> we're gutting the terror network, and this pleases me. I don't want my
> water poisoned, sorry!

I think you'd better sort out your Utility companies about poisoning your water, nah keep drinking it, it's already addled your brain, too late for some, sorry.

> There has only been one Al Quaeda attack since 9/11, in Kashmir. Oh how
> frustrated the caged terrorist freaks in Cuba must be!

You just don't get it do you. Try to understand why you have your terrorists in the first place, & why your governments won't kill the leaders of such organisations (they all piss in the same pot).

old garble...

> Anyway, I see the terrorists are threatening to assasinated the new
> leader of Afghanistan. Boy it hurts them to see someone trying
> to push a muslim country out of the dark ages....

by that do you mean the mass bombing campaign that has fucked up an already fucked up country?

> Translated, this means you find Mr. Karzai worse than the Taliban. Wow.
> Meanwhile people are scrambling to rebuild a nation, now that they have
> some hope for the future.

Can you see a resemblance to your past utterings, let me show you! "Translated... blah blah blah" how is it you have this mind reading ability to translate my thoughts & feelings, read my post about yours I make a suggestion to you ASKING you do you mean blah blah blah. So what do you put this down to? Could it be arrogance or ignorance or what do you say it is, please feel free to tell me what I think/know etc etc.

Yours
Grim 'I can't speak for myself' O'Grady if that's ok with a loafing oaf
 
Top Bottom