re: alain's message on israel

[LoafingOaf - Yipee-ki-yay, muthafuckas]

In the "Who Armed IRaq? thread down below, Alain wrote:

>> What's your point?
>
>Israel should be bombed next.
>
>They are terrorizing civilian populations.
>They have a total disrespect for UN resolutions.
>They have nukes.
>They have been involved in genocide.
>
>The question is not "what's your point", but rather "why haven't we yet bombed >them" or "why do we keep them as friendly".

We're not gonna bomb Israel because they are our ally, they are the lone democracy in a region of fascism, and they have sought peace with their neighbors in good faith. Israel has extended its hand to every Arab state that has indicated it wanted peace (Jordan, Egypt...). You're typing to someone who cheered when Colin Powell spoke to the pro-Israel lobby and informed them of further funds America is extending to our ally. I've become more and more pro-Israel since 9/11. I understand their side far more than I ever did before. (Especially when I see how many in the Arab and European media portray America's War on Terrorism. That's what they've been doing to Israel for decades!)

I understand you're very worked up about Israel. But I don't see proof that you know very much. For example, you speak of UN resolutions regarding Israel as if the same sort of Security Counsel resolution imposed on Saddam Hussein were being imposed on Israel, which is just not true. There's nothing like 1441 concerning Israel, because Israel is nothing like the fascist state of Iraq. Clearly you've never looked into the resolutions on Israel, and you're just regurgutating the propaganda from the increasingly combining forces of the Leave-Saddam-Alone crowd, the America-Is-The-Great-Satan crowd, and the Kill-All-Jews crowd.

The fact is, there are no resolutions which call on Israel to do anything unilaterally like the many resolutions on Iraq did. The key resolutions on Israel call for a "just and lasting solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict...through an active negotiating process which takes into account the right to security for all States in the region, including Israel, as well as the legitimate political rights of the Palestinian people."

And btw, it makes me wanna puke that I'm having to reply with a compare and contrast between resolutions on IRaq and resolutions on Israel. Because there's not a god damn thing similar between Israel and the sicko Hitler-Stalin-inspired regime of Saddam Hussein.

So, why don't you put aside your extremist hatred for Israel, get on board with the "roadmap" for peace that most of the civilized world leaders are supporting, and lets get a real solution for Israel and Palestinians. Time and time again Israel has been trying to engage in the negotiating process for peace and the return of occupied territory. Territory that was occupied when Arabs chose to start war with Israel. And time and time again, those refusing to follow the UN, by refusing to respect the RIGHT TO SECURITY FOR ISRAEL, have supported blowing up children rather than good faith peace negotations.

I listened carefully to the Israeli Foreign Minister speaking to the pro-ISrael lobby in America one week ago. In response to Colin Powell's excellent speech discussing the roadmap to peace (which called on both sides to take steps, pointing out that America is calling for an end to the settlements and increased concern for the conditions the Palestinians live in (you see, in line with the UN!)), the Israeli Foreign Minister responded completely favorably. He also, btw, is a civilized human being, which to me is something I've begun paying a lot of attention to as I watch various leaders on various sides of foreign policy issues. You see, we are in a war right now between civilization and the barbarian savages from hell. I actually sent off a check to AIPAC after I saw those speeches. So you are now officially talking to a member of the pro-Israel lobby in America.

In contrast to the Israeli Foriegn Minister and Colin Powell, when I listen to the leadership of the anti-Israel crowd most of what I hear is more of the barbarian-savages-from-hell ranting and raving. High on the list of the babarians are Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the rest of those who love to kill innocent people as a formal political policy, and those who sympathize with such atrocity. (Yes, America saw them cheering when 9/11 happened.) Fortunately I also know that there are many Palestinians who are not barabarians, who would like democracy and peace. And, for them, the world has made clear that the Palestinians can have their deserved state as early as 2005, contingent upon some very reasonable and achievable steps away from the terror and fascism of the barbaians. Now it's time for the barbarian savage terrorists to step aside and let those who are serious about peace take over. And lets be real, what have people like Arafat achieved for the Palestinian people? Get off the stage!

The barbarians who wanna commit a holocaust in Israel should know by now we're not gonna allow that to happen. And while hope was quickly being lost as every attempt for peaceful resolution of the Arab-Israel conflict had failed, perhaps the action in Iraq is the sort of shaking up in that region that's been needed for people to get serious about democracy and peace rather than terrorism.

>Next, you should start campaigning in favor of bombing NKorea.
>
>Take me on my word: that will never happen.

Hmm. Well, I heard a bit about the UN having North Korea on their agenda in the coming days. Since you seem to think the UN is so wonderful, I'm assuming the UN will solve that crisis! I'm sure we can count on them, eh? Or, wait, you mean it's being left up to America again?

The problem with bombing North Korea is they can potentially kill millions of people in very short order. I for one am glad we didn't allow Saddam Hussein to achieve a similar ability to hold the world hostage with such a military capability.

>So, why Iraq yes, and NKorea no?
>Double standards?

Why Iraq? They invaded another country, signed a ceasefire agreement, and for 13 years they have not allowed diplomacy to succeed. 13 years of diplomacy is a helluva lot of diplomacy! We were left with just three choices: 1. LEt Saddam off the hook, give Saddam complete victory in his defiance of international law and order, and condemn 25 million people to continue to live in fascist opression. 2. Continue the UN sanctions even though they have failed to keep Saddam from building up his WMDs, and even though his people were suffering and dying under those sanctions. 3. Do what we're doing today.

When you consider all three options it becomes apparent there was really only one choice - what we're doing today. IOW, we had no choice at all. And we can do what we have to do with a clear conscience because we'll be liberating millions from the nightmare and hell of Saddam's regime.

 

[Open your eyes]

Um ok lets just forget that Israel also recently used chemical weapons causing fits in over 180 Palestinians, also that it has no respect for other countries borders including the UK's (the kidnapping of Vanunu), and that it authorises the state sponsored murder of people it decides are its enemies without trial.

Oh did I also miss out the 800+ children under 14 shot and killed by israeli troops in the last two years for the horrific crime of stone throwing?

And lets not forget if a member of your family commits a crime against israel they will demolish your house literally just because you are a relative

Did we also forget that israel is in breach of more united nations resolutions than any other country on earth including one demanding it return to its own pre 1967 borders instead of which it continues to be an invader and occupier of other peoples land

Oh I almost forgot, there is also its ability to make people stateless by forcibly throwing them out of their own country never to return, by removing their statehood

You really have to take your hat off to a nation like israel

They managed to take many of Hitlers methods, and apply them in full view of the whole world and have us all convinced we are wrong to criticise them for it!

Imprisonment without trial, execution without trial, deportation on the basis of race, occupying foreign territory, and even some of its own people to afraid to speak out for fear of its intelligence services and secret police

Sound familiar?

Dont try and portay israel as some innocent victim of anti semitic violence, it isnt

Its an aggressive murderous nation currently headed by a man with more blood on his hands than Saddam Hussein himself or do we choose to forget that Ariel Sharon was responsible for genocide like massacres in the 70's in refugee camps in Lebanon?

And we are all afraid to say a word in protest for fear of being labelled as anti semitic

And we call ourselves a civilised society?

God help us all

 

[Steven I.]

Alain Whyte has an opinion on Israel?

 

[LoafingOaf - Yipee-ki-yay, muthafuckas]

I'm not in the mood for going through this heavily spinning and propagandistic message (Israel is a nazi state??). It would take an hour to do go through all that, and I wouldn't change anyone's mind anyway...so convinced they are by their media that Israel is the most evil nation on earth (did you feel the same way about Great Britiain's responses to the IRA?).

I'll just note that my point still stands: There is no UN Security Counsel resolution on Israel analogous to 1441 and the other resolutions on Iraq cited as the legal basis for the current war. So why do you guys keep mentioning UN resolutions on Israel and saying we're "inconsistant" for not going to war with Israel? I guess you thought that simply asserting "There's resolutions on Israel too!" meant that Israel = Iraq? As if every resolutuon is identical? What nonsense. But I know why you guys do that. Because in the circles you hang out in, when somebody says something like, "Oh, there's UN resolutions on Israel, why doesn't the USA bomb them too!!" no one thinks critically or researches just how valid an argument that is. That's an argument designed to play to morons who will clap-clap-clap to any asinine point that sounds like what they wanna hear. And that's why I'm the only one actually quoting from Security Counsel counsel resolutions on Israel.

And btw, if you DO care about UN resolutions on Israel, or any other country for that matter (I don't think you guys care about the situations in any country EXCEPT Israel), it was probably unwise for people to suggest that Resolution 1441 should be blown off. I mean, if you let a resolution as strongly worded as 1441 go unenforced, you may as well call the whole thing off and just admit that anything goes in this world; that it's the law of the jungle, international law and order be damned. My stance, in contrast, was to set the precedent that UN resolutions SHOULD be enforced.

Not that the UN is somehow blessed with holy water and is the authority of what's right and what's wrong (far from it!), but it would be nice if they'd back up their words with action. Many thousands of people have died preventable deaths in various parts of this world waiting for the UN to get off their sorry asses.

 

[Open your eyes]

One UN resolution comes to mind, the one telling israel to get back to its own borders exactly the same way iraq was told to get the hell out of kuwait, or had you forgotten about that one?

And as for our severly hampered forces in northern ireland in years gone by they couldnt open fire unless fired at first, let alone murder children in cold blood for stone throwing

Funny thing is, after a similar time period to israel we have relative peace in northern ireland and israel has what it sowed, terrorism and destruction due to state sponsored murder

In 1972 on bloody sunday, 14 demonstrators were shot and killed AFTER the army was fired on

We were castigated by the world from then up to the present day

Israel sytematically murders on a daily basis in front of the world and noone says a thing

Israel although a democracy has an infrastructure and foreign policy frighteningly close to that of the pre 1939 German Government in how it deals with dissension

I've done my research and made my points in my previous posting that you have singularly failed to answer or have simply tried to mislead on

There is certainly one un resolution as I pointed out that is identical to the iraq/kuwait scenario against israel that has remained unenforced since 1968
the one on borders

ALL parasitical murderous nations should be condemned just dont try making exceptions for ones like israel

One last point, why is the us going to treat israel the same way it treats the arabs?

After all there is no oil in israel and the us does give it $3 biilion a year!

 

[david]

grow up!

 

[Open your eyes]

Well said!

 

[Eyes wide shut]

> One UN resolution comes to mind, the one telling israel to get back to its
> own borders exactly the same way iraq was told to get the hell out of
> kuwait, or had you forgotten about that one?

Since every country gets representation in the UN, and since there are way too
much Arab states (divided arbitrarily by the British) they have more influence than they obviously should have.

In the Iraqi instance, Iraq initiated the war, as opposed to the Israeli instance. In a normal world, you would expect that the aggressive loser, would have to face the consequences of his acts.
But no, you say they should be rewarded. Given a second, third and so on chances.

You failed to win the first time?
It doesn't matter.
Try again until you win.

It's completely absurd.

> And as for our severly hampered forces in northern ireland in years gone
> by they couldnt open fire unless fired at first, let alone murder children
> in cold blood for stone throwing

> Funny thing is, after a similar time period to israel we have relative
> peace in northern ireland and israel has what it sowed, terrorism and
> destruction due to state sponsored murder

> In 1972 on bloody sunday, 14 demonstrators were shot and killed AFTER the
> army was fired on

> We were castigated by the world from then up to the present day

The English should not be in Northern Ireland.
This is not your country!!!
It is in fact a completely different island!
Spare me the BS on how it's a religious war, because it isn't.

The English have an history of invading countries they have nothing
to do with, as part of their colonial quest.
One example is how The English, the French and others, have completely ruined Africa, killing millions of defenseless people.
Other examples are India, China and so on.
Israel on the other hand is fighting in and on its land, a stretch of a couple of miles and you want to take it as well.
The Arabs have a continent, but that's obviously not enough!

It is really quite amazing how all the focus falls on Israel which is such a small and relatively insignificant country, while in Africa millions of people are dying of hunger. But somehow when a Palestinian falls and breaks his leg,
it is the talk of the day.

The IRA have really been polite. I shake as I think of how the English
would have responded, had the IRA not notified them of their planned bombings.
This is not the case in Israel. There is no 3 hours notice.
people are being slaughtered.
That's the difference between Arabs and European.

Terrorism is not fair. You go out and kill defenseless civilians.
It's not very sophisticated either.
And it should not be regarded as a legitimate act of resistance,
no matter whatever reasons you can come up with.
In no other culture, has anyone desperate or frustrated, gone out and
blown himself.

Israel, is acting like no other state in the same position, would have.
And I honestly think, it acts too cautiously and too civilized.
You simply can't fight terrorism with conventional measures.
I wish your accusations of use of chemical weapons and mass murder were
true, for this is really a more logical solution to terrorism.

If you think the Palestinians are living under terrible conditions, you should take a look at other Arab countries in the region, like Egypt, Syria or Jordan, people over there are worse off.
In general, the Arab world is pretty backwards, if the country has got no oil, it's pretty done for.
Had Israel been a dictatorship, it would not have 1.5 million Arab CITIZENS,
for god's sake!
And in the end you really can't beat the demographics.
There would be a Palestinian state and next to it another Palestinian state.

Rest assure Israel will cease to exist, sooner than you think.
Hell, the battle is already lost.

I can only find comfort that someday in the not so distant future,
Europe and eventually the US, would fall a victim to the same
circumstances, Israel is facing right now.
It is not Israel's sole problem anymore, 9/11 proved that.
Europe is now filled with Arabs.
Israel is an omen.

 

[CrushingBore]

> We're not gonna bomb Israel because they are our ally,

At least you're being honest about being biased towards nations that support America.

> they have sought peace with their
> neighbors in good faith. Israel has extended its hand to every Arab state
> that has indicated it wanted peace (Jordan, Egypt...).

Historically speaking, that's horseshit. Israel's been at war with every one of its Arab neighbours at one time or another.

> There's nothing like 1441 concerning Israel,

> The fact is, there are no resolutions which call on Israel to do anything
> unilaterally like the many resolutions on Iraq did.

That's because America's used its veto to block virtually every security council resolution regarding Israel since 1947. But if the French or Russians want to use their veto against America's wishes, they are demonised and ultimately ignored and the US proceeds to do as it sees fit.

> So, why don't you put aside your extremist hatred for Israel, get on board
> with the "roadmap" for peace that most of the civilized world
> leaders are supporting, and lets get a real solution for Israel and
> Palestinians. Time and time again Israel has been trying to engage in the
> negotiating process for peace and the return of occupied territory.
> Territory that was occupied when Arabs chose to start war with Israel.

Again, no historical analysis. Go back to 1947 - zionists started it. Terrorism (as this war has shown) is a response to being confronted with an overwhelming force which traditional (or "symetrical" warfare) stands no chance of overcoming.

> You see,
> we are in a war right now between civilization and the barbarian savages
> from hell. I actually sent off a check to AIPAC after I saw those
> speeches. So you are now officially talking to a member of the pro-Israel
> lobby in America.

Just what the world needs now - another fully-enlisted unreconstructed racist bigot. That is the most bollock-brained rhetoric I've ever seen you post. Step outside yourself, read what you posted above, and tell me how reasoned you think you sound.

 

[Open your eyes]

"The IRA have really been polite."

Are you living on the same planet as the rest of us?

And if you think israel is civilised you really do need to take another look

Arab nations at least dont try and dress themselves up as aggrieved democracies

In countries colonialist past there were terrible attrocities, fortunately the UK moved on and learned by those dreadful mistakes

A shame israel didnt move with theirs

 

[CrushingBore]

You may have noticed quite a few inconsistencies in regard your own postings on the UN.
In this instance, the UN is a legitimate body, because it's passed reasonable, moderate (and utterly non-specific non-demanding) resolutions in relation to Israel. Those resolutions are by and large General Assembly resolutions without sanction, specificity or emforcement mechanisms. Again the US has vetoed almost every resolution which came to the Security Council in relation to Israel.

The UN is in other instances, damned because France and Russia would have vetoed further resolutions authorising force subsequent to 1441. In another instance the UN is damned because it's going to leave action in North Korea to the mighty US.

Do you or do you not endorse UN processes irrespective of whether they receive full US backing approval and sanction? Will you support the "roadmap" being dealt with at Security Council level, or is the UN's role merely to provide moral backing to the wishes of the US wherever possible?

 

[CrushingBore]

> Israel, is acting like no other state in the same position, would have.
> And I honestly think, it acts too cautiously and too civilized.
> You simply can't fight terrorism with conventional measures.
> I wish your accusations of use of chemical weapons and mass murder were
> true, for this is really a more logical solution to terrorism.

You complete and utter f***wit.

> If you think the Palestinians are living under terrible conditions, you
> should take a look at other Arab countries in the region, like Egypt,
> Syria or Jordan, people over there are worse off.

What in the name of God do you base that ridiculous assertion on? Those countries have some semblance of an economy. The Palestinian economy (such as it is has contracted by something like 30% since Israeli policies of closure were intiiated in the early 90's. Do some research and then come back here and post something halfway sensible!

> In general, the Arab world is pretty backwards, if the country has got no
> oil, it's pretty done for.

And Palestine has no oil. You just undermined your own above argument.

> It is not Israel's sole problem anymore, 9/11 proved that.
> Europe is now filled with Arabs...

... who have a sense of hope, a future, enfranchisement, and of something to live for. Palestinians have none of that, and will therefore continue resisting occupation in whatever way they can. No comparison, and of course utterly racist.

 

[Open your eyes]

Frankly I think the right to vetoe should be done away with altogether and a simple majority vote should carry the day as in any democratic process

I agree the US has vetoed everything that would result in any form of action against israel including sanctions and that is unfortunate

Some do demand israel returns to its pre '67 borders but those have no teeth per se

The ability of any country to manipulate or block un action for its own self interest is, frankly, sickening

 

[Mindy]

i bet loafing oaf doesn't consider some of our revolutionary war heroes to be terrorists. but think about it. by our criteria, they would have been considered unlawful combatants because of their lack of uniforms and their membership in militias. i suppose i can look forward to hearing some nonsense about the united states always being righteous and holy in every war it's ever fought and so all of their tactics have been ever-so-fair and our motives have been pure. hey buddy, even most of our good wars were financially motivated to a large extent (including the revolutionary and the civil).

(and about the use of the word terrorism: what the hell is up with that word being used as sort of a catch-all for everything that isn't a united states tactic -- or even things that are a united states tactic when other nations use them against us!? oh, and people need to learn the difference between guerilla warfare and terrorism.)

 

[sandra]

Hey Alain-- WHAT'S UP?

YOU ARE A f***ING IDIOT LOSER! GET A f***ING LIFE YOU ANTI-SEMITE MORORN! WHY DON'T YOU JUST KILL YOUSELF WITH THE ONE NEURON STILL FIRING IN YOUR IDIOTIC BRAIN BEFORE THAT NEURON FLICKERS OUT LIKE ALL OF THE OTHERS. YOU ARE ONE SAD SACK!

 

[david]

Totally agree about Britaina nd Northern Ireland, but its the same with Israel, really.

How would you like it if some other country invaded YOUR town, tortured and bombed those who stuck up for you, commited various atrocities against you etc.

 

[Eyes wide shut]

> "The IRA have really been polite."

They really have been. They could have easily gone through with something which resembles 9/11, but they aren't murderers and that's the thin line.
As I've said it's not much of a challenge killing civilians and I hope you understand this notion.

> Are you living on the same planet as the rest of us?

Unfortunately I do. But if you have any good suggestions, I'm willing to try.
I heard nothing but good things about Mars.

> And if you think Israel is civilised you really do need to take another
> look

It depends on your definition of the word civilized.

> Arab nations at least dont try and dress themselves up as aggrieved
> democracies

No they don't. So why do you insist on defending these dictatorships'
acts. They obviously are not concerned with their peoples well being,
nor with the Palestinians' suffering.
If they were, they would have found a solution by now.
It really isn't a big problem, when you examine it in an unbiased fashion.

You should really acknowledge that Islam is the world's biggest problem
right now and it will remain as such for many decades to come.

> In countries colonialist past there were terrible atrocities, fortunately
> the UK moved on and learned by those dreadful mistakes

It really wasn't that long ago and I don't see how these countries can now
take the moral high ground.
First they should solve the problems they've created and then and only then criticize others.
Especially where there really isn't nothing to shout about.

It's funny how you're mad, England was criticized during its fight against the
IRA, but at the same time, you criticize Israel.

> A shame israel didnt move with theirs

As I've explained, Israel is not colonizing anything.
colonizing is occupying a country overseas, or in another continent,
and that is not the case.

 

[Madness of King George]

Now you begin to see. Loafing Oaf isn't as much "anti Saddam/anti Terrorism/anti Osama Bin Laden" as much as he is Pro Israel. That seems to be pretty much what he is about. That's why the whole argument is moot with him.

 

[Open your eyes]

Funny how anyone calling israel to account the same way any other country is called to account is an anti semite

Weird especially as some israelis themselves are calling for more accountability

I wonder if they are anti semitic semites?

 

[Eyes wide shut]

It's not the same at all.

Speaking in historical sense, going back to the bible (which most people would agree, is a historical document) Israel is the land of the Jewish people.
Countless of other historical facts and findings can confirm this.
In fact they never left it (at least not from their own free will; from the Jewish history you can learn of how they were exiled from the land, by the various empires - Babylon, Roman, Greek ...)

After the holocaust, survivors from Europe came to Israel and the Jewish community grew drastically. That doesn't mean, there were no jews left in Israel for thousands of years.

There is no "Palestinian" people, the "Palestinians" are only unique in that they were residents of what the British called Palestine(to irritate the Jews).
The "Palestinians" do not vary in language, religion, culture, etc. from any of the other Arabs in the region (excluding Egypt, which has a glorious history).
The division into states, is an arbitrary division, made by the French and British in the past hundred.

The glamorous glue that keeps them together is the neighboring Arab countries, who don't want to see the problem resolved and of course the hatred towards Israel.
If you ever wondered why such a minor problem has been dragging for so long,
this is one important reason.

The Arabs differ from the Jews, in that they will not leave and rebuild themselves. They have time, they don't want to better themselves.
If you've seen the movie Lorens of Arabia, you know that there was nothing in Israel. Look at Saudi Arabia, which is a rich country, packed with oil.
And then look at an Arab country with no oil at all.
The Arab world has nothing to offer, except oil.
When the British and Jews came, they brought progress and economic growth,
otherwise the Palestinians would have continued to graze sheeps.
Look at Egypt, do you think people there are better off?

While the Jews on the other hand, time and again, rebuild their lives, in other countries.
If the Jews were ever given the option to leave Europe, or to die, I am sure they would have chose to leave. But they were not given a choice!

Jordan is the real "Palestinian" state, 60% of the population there is Palestinian and it is much larger than Israel.
The Arabs have 20+ states. Look at Saudi Arabia, it's huge.
And now look at Israel, the West Bank and Gaza take most of it, and the
rest is mostly desert.
The Palestinians were given by the UN a state, longside a little Israel, in 1948, they chose to refuse and tried to rob the Jews from even a small state.
They lost. In my life, I pay for my mistakes.
But no, they expect to receive the same offer as they were offered over 50 years and under the same conditions.
The 1967 borders are in fact the 1948 borders!
It's like a game, where one is constantly losing and yet he is given endless chances, until he wins.

The real answer is that they simply don't want a solution.
They want to destroy Israel and if they'll wait long enough
demography would have its way.

If we speak of suffering and atrocities, there is almost no other people in the world who suffered as much as the Jews.
How can one explain the fact that Israel has 1.5 million Arab citizens, if
Israel has killed and driven them all away.
How can one explain the presence of millions of others in Gaza and the West Bank.

The fact of the matter is the Jews have been too humane.

Had they killed everyone, like Hitler did to them, or like the US did to the Indians, there would have been no problem.
This is sadly Israel's mistake, apparently.
They should have killed and tortured everyone - that's what everyone thinks of them anyway, and they didn't even do it.

There is however an invert of a solution.
I am sure that if you gave the Jews a different state, say in America, they would leave today.