Question for vegans and vegetarians and omnivores as well...

[Playcat2000]

I was a Morrissey fan before I became vegetarian. He didn't change my eating habits. I came to the decision based on other factors. I loved the taste of meat. I would eat anything and everything. I think the only animal I didn't really like was rabbit but if you could eat it I would and of the animals I had tried in my former meat eating life, I enjoyed all of them. I've been a vegetarian close to 25 years now.



It's not the cruelty that primarily drives me. It is the loss of life.

That makes no sense. Their loss of life is the result of a long painful torturous death.

 

[realitybites]

This monkey in a snowsuit is displaying embarrassment and shame as people laugh at him trying to maneuver in a snowsuit. He can't even look his handler in the face after she tosses him in the air because she's having so much fun at his expense. At the end he gives up and sits. Psychic pain.

As you may recall me saying in the Meat Thread, I support Peter Singer's efforts to protect the great apes. I place them up there with humans and believe they should be treated with the utmost care and respect--just shy of having civil rights. Killing and eating them is unacceptable. Zoos--horrific. Performing chimps? Makes me ill. I do believe chimps and the other great apes suffer psychic pain. And they are animals. Almost forgot, as they resemble humans in so many ways. And I had my mind somewhat focused on farm animals... because the discussion has centered around food. And that is what this thread is about. We don't eat apes in the US or UK. But the apes... yeah... just stare at a gorilla's hand for a few minutes. It is uncanny how much it is like a human hand. Then look into its eyes. There is more there than simple reflexes and instinctual behavior going on. Do I differentiate between cows and apes? Yes, I do. Just as I differentiate between a scallop and a pig. It's a continuum. Some animals suffer more than others. This cannot be denied. And some have fuller awareness and cognitive development. This affords them greater protection, imo. If I had to chose to save a chicken or a chimp it would be a no brainer... the chimp lives.

 

[Iona Mink]

That makes no sense. Their loss of life is the result of a long painful torturous death.

It makes perfect sense. It is not the manner in which they die that deters me from eating meat. The animal could be killed swiftly, cleanly and with Schubert playing in the background, I would still remain a vegetarian. Simply, I do not need (and hence do not endorse) another living creature to die so that I can be fed. In this day and age and living in the country that I do, it is gratuitous.

 

[Steve Croce]

As you may recall me saying in the Meat Thread, I support Peter Singer's efforts to protect the great apes. I place them up there with humans and believe they should be treated with the utmost care and respect--just shy of having civil rights. Killing and eating them is unacceptable. Zoos--horrific. Performing chimps? Makes me ill. I do believe chimps and the other great apes suffer psychic pain. And they are animals. Almost forgot, as they resemble humans in so many ways. And I had my mind somewhat focused on farm animals... because the discussion has centered around food. And that is what this thread is about. We don't eat apes in the US or UK. But the apes... yeah... just stare at a gorilla's hand for a few minutes. It is uncanny how much it is like a human hand. Then look into its eyes. There is more there than simple reflexes and instinctual behavior going on. Do I differentiate between cows and apes? Yes, I do. Just as I differentiate between a scallop and a pig. It's a continuum. Some animals suffer more than others. This cannot be denied. And some have fuller awareness and cognitive development. This affords them greater protection, imo. If I had to chose to save a chicken or a chimp it would be a no brainer... the chimp lives

I'll mark you down as an opponent of Speciesism.

 

[realitybites]

I'll mark you down as an opponent of Speciesism.

Yeah right. Hey, I am not ashamed of my position. Speciest is another derogatory label--much like carnist--used by animal right activists to marginalize meat eaters and those who place greater value on human life than animal life. It is not the same as sexism or racism. Those things value one human over another and support discriminatory practices which deny equal opportunity and access to resources. Nice try, though.

 

[Steve Croce]

Yeah right. Hey, I am not ashamed of my position. Speciest is another derogatory label--much like carnist--used by animal right activists to marginalize meat eaters and those who place greater value on human life than animal life. It is not the same as sexism or racism. Those things value one human over another and support discriminatory practices which deny equal opportunity and access to resources. Nice try, though.

My dad can beat up your dad.

 

[realitybites]

My dad can beat up your dad.

I believe you. I bet you come from that side of the tracks. My dad gets manicures. Hahaha.

 

[Iona Mink]

realitybites I don't accuse you personally of this but I am always amused by the fascination meat eaters have in vegetarians and their diet. I'm forever being asked on my position and then taken to justify it. I would hazard a guess that most of the threads on this board that have been about vegetarianism have been created by those that eat meat. For the life of me I can't fathom how what I choose to put in my mouth (or not as the case may be) can be so interesting. (Of course I am volunteering my reasons here so I don't include this as being taken to task.)

Can't we all just eat what we want to without having being made to feel bad/guilty/shameful/stupid about it?

 

[CrystalGeezer]

As you may recall me saying in the Meat Thread, I support Peter Singer's efforts to protect the great apes. I place them up there with humans and believe they should be treated with the utmost care and respect--just shy of having civil rights. Killing and eating them is unacceptable. Zoos--horrific. Performing chimps? Makes me ill. I do believe chimps and the other great apes suffer psychic pain. And they are animals. Almost forgot, as they resemble humans in so many ways. And I had my mind somewhat focused on farm animals... because the discussion has centered around food. And that is what this thread is about. We don't eat apes in the US or UK. But the apes... yeah... just stare at a gorilla's hand for a few minutes. It is uncanny how much it is like a human hand. Then look into its eyes. There is more there than simple reflexes and instinctual behavior going on. Do I differentiate between cows and apes? Yes, I do. Just as I differentiate between a scallop and a pig. It's a continuum. Some animals suffer more than others. This cannot be denied. And some have fuller awareness and cognitive development. This affords them greater protection, imo. If I had to chose to save a chicken or a chimp it would be a no brainer... the chimp lives.

No I don't recall who you said you copy the ideas of and I realize pointing out the thousands of examples of farm animals experiencing shame and embarrassment is going to be futile. What I don't understand is your original argument that an animal is edible because it doesn't experience regret and remorse and shame and embarrassment. Should we be eating mentally retarded people and those trapped in comas?

 

[Steve Croce]

Can't we all just eat what we want to without having being made to feel bad/guilty/shameful/stupid about it?

 

[realitybites]

realitybites I don't accuse you personally of this but I am always amused by the fascination meat eaters have in vegetarians and their diet. I'm forever being asked on my position and then taken to justify it. I would hazard a guess that most of the threads on this board that have been about vegetarianism have been created by those that eat meat. For the life of me I can't fathom how what I choose to put in my mouth (or not as the case may be) can be so interesting. (Of course I am volunteering my reasons here so I don't include this as being taken to task.)

Can't we all just eat what we want to without having being made to feel bad/guilty/shameful/stupid about it?

I am not fascinated. I was posting in the Meat Thread. Brummie asked a question related to the ethics of eating meat. I answered and have been thinking about this stuff all week. I was a vegetarian for seven years--before I knew of Moz's music. I live in a very veggie friendly city... full of vegans, vegetarians, and raw foodists. The markets here cater to these lifestyles. Nothing unusual for me. I don't see you as a bug under the microscope in need of careful study and description. I just wanted to get a general idea of how many vegetarians were on the forum and if Morrissey the man or his music had any influence on their choice to not eat meat. Curiosity. And conversation. And tea. Where is the tea? I don't care what you eat. I really don't. And I respect your choices. And am glad you shared your story. Not judging you at all.

 

[realitybites]

View attachment 16204

I'll pass on the liver. But I would like that glass of Chianti, please.

 

[realitybites]

No I don't recall who you said you copy the ideas of and I realize pointing out the thousands of examples of farm animals experiencing shame and embarrassment is going to be futile. What I don't understand is your original argument that an animal is edible because it doesn't experience regret and remorse and shame and embarrassment. Should we be eating mentally retarded people and those trapped in comas?

I was talking about cannibalism... responding to Uncleskinny's post. Do you comprehend what you read? Seems not. It said nothing about an animal being edible. It said something about how an animal can eat its own kind.

Now bugger off.

 

[Playcat2000]

My dad can beat up your dad.

My dads IQ is highter than your dads.

 

[itsverycold]

I first stopped eating meat when i was about 10. It lasted for a couple of years maybe. Then i became veggie again probably around the time i started listening to the smiths. Meat is murder had nothing to do with it though. A few months ago i started eating meat again because i felt unable to care about anything. That only lasted a couple of months. Now i eat vegan 90% of the time.

 

[Reelaround]

Here's an example of psychic pain. The early Mariah Carey is just a bonus.



(It's a happy ending so not too hard to watch.)

Tears have just been dripping down my face watching this
And no, it wasn't the song, just the sight of a sentient being grieving for it's offspring

Believe it or not as you like, but I remember being 4 years old and asking during a family Sunday roast session about the funny brown stuff on my plate, and asking "What's this made from"? Then being told it was 'made from cows'. At that point I shoved my plate away and said yuck that I wasn't eating it.
So I guess that some people may just be born that way

 

[CrookedLittleVein]

As you may recall me saying in the Meat Thread, I support Peter Singer's efforts to protect the great apes. I place them up there with humans and believe they should be treated with the utmost care and respect--just shy of having civil rights. Killing and eating them is unacceptable. Zoos--horrific. Performing chimps? Makes me ill. I do believe chimps and the other great apes suffer psychic pain. And they are animals. Almost forgot, as they resemble humans in so many ways. And I had my mind somewhat focused on farm animals... because the discussion has centered around food. And that is what this thread is about. We don't eat apes in the US or UK. But the apes... yeah... just stare at a gorilla's hand for a few minutes. It is uncanny how much it is like a human hand. Then look into its eyes. There is more there than simple reflexes and instinctual behavior going on. Do I differentiate between cows and apes? Yes, I do. Just as I differentiate between a scallop and a pig. It's a continuum. Some animals suffer more than others. This cannot be denied. And some have fuller awareness and cognitive development. This affords them greater protection, imo. If I had to chose to save a chicken or a chimp it would be a no brainer... the chimp lives.

I appreciate you've digressed, but 'saving' and not eating are worlds apart. By not eating meat, you are choosing to avoid placing an animal in jeopardy in the first place; there's no need, therefore, to save it. For what it's worth, I'd save the chimp every time, too. Crystal makes a good point, though (now I'm digressing/muddling my post): why should the fact that an animal might not experience what may be considered to be subtler emotions (regret, remorse, shame, embarrassment) move it closer to the dinner plate? The fact that an animal can suffer the cruder emotions of anxiety, stress, fear and outright terror should be enough to stop us from doing something we really didn't have to do in the first place. Or am I being a bit of a simpleton?

 

[realitybites]

I first stopped eating meat when i was about 10. It lasted for a couple of years maybe. Then i became veggie again probably around the time i started listening to the smiths. Meat is murder had nothing to do with it though. A few months ago i started eating meat again because i felt unable to care about anything. That only lasted a couple of months. Now i eat vegan 90% of the time.

Do you enjoy cooking? Or do you purchase vegan products such as soy burgers etc? Or a combo?

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I was talking about cannibalism... responding to Uncleskinny's post. Do you comprehend what you read? Seems not. It said nothing about an animal being edible. It said something about how an animal can eat its own kind.

Now bugger off.

Have you decided I am not invited to participate in this discussion?

 

[realitybites]

I appreciate you've digressed, but 'saving' and not eating are worlds apart. By not eating meat, you are choosing to avoid placing an animal in jeopardy in the first place; there's no need, therefore, to save it. For what it's worth, I'd save the chimp every time, too. Crystal makes a good point, though (now I'm digressing/muddling my post): why should the fact that an animal might not experience what may be considered to be subtler emotions (regret, remorse, shame, embarrassment) move it closer to the dinner plate? The fact that an animal can suffer the cruder emotions of anxiety, stress, fear and outright terror should be enough to stop us from doing something we really didn't have to do in the first place. Or am I being a bit of a simpleton?

Well, I would never eat a chimp. Unless it was dead and I was starving to death. I would raise a chicken, however, specifically for food. I see a difference because, as Croce suggested, I am a speciest. Some animals are more worthy than others. It is a continuum. Like I said earlier, a scallop doesn't have the same rights to protection and care as a pig, imo. A highly developed central nervous system coupled with advanced cognition makes some animals more likely to suffer. But torture is never acceptable.