Question for vegans and vegetarians and omnivores as well...

[realitybites]

George Bernard Shaw:

"Think of the fierce energy concentrated in an acorn! You bury it in the ground, and it explodes into an oak! Bury a sheep, and nothing happens but decay."

"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends."

"My situation is a solemn one. Life is offered to me on condition of eating beefsteaks. But death is better than cannibalism. My will contains directions for my funeral, which will be followed not by mourning coaches, but by oxen, sheep, flocks of poultry, and a small traveling aquarium of live fish, all wearing white scarfs in honor of the man who perished rather than eat his fellow creatures."

"A mind of the calibre of mine cannot derive its nutriment from cows. "

"A man of my spiritual intensity does not eat corpses."

"While we ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts, how can we expect any ideal conditions on this earth?"

P.

Is it? Death is nothingness. Cannibalism is life. Get past the psychic trauma and you can and will thrive. Animals cannibalize one another all the time. Basic instinct. Oh and we are animals. We just have psychic pain. They do not. YES, you say! We can reason. We don't have to kill animals. We know better. We have more evolved brains... that psychic pain thing you mentioned... should lead us to being moral agents who do not kill sentient beings. Were are NOT really like animals, after all. Ah, true. WE ARE different from animals. And thus, killing an animal is not the same as killing a human precisely because of this difference... this moral agency, psychic pain stuff. We feel pain on a level that animals do not. That is why they can eat their young without a blink... or their brothers, sisters, parents. Even chimps do it. I don't see any of them feeling remorse for doing so.

I am not advocating cannibalism btw. I just think it IS better than death, under the right circumstances. Survival may make us have to become more like animals. Is death better than resorting to a temporary animal-like state to get past a hurdle? I don't think so. I would do what those Uruguayan athletes did... eat.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Is it? Death is nothingness. Cannibalism is life. Get past the psychic trauma and you can and will thrive. Animals cannibalize one another all the time. Basic instinct. Oh and we are animals. We just have psychic pain. They do not. YES, you say! We can reason. We don't have to kill animals. We know better. We have more evolved brains... that psychic pain thing you mentioned... should lead us to being moral agents who do not kill sentient beings. Were are NOT really like animals, after all. Ah, true. WE ARE different from animals. And thus, killing an animal is not the same as killing a human precisely because of this difference... this moral agency, psychic pain stuff. We feel pain on a level that animals do not. That is why they can eat their young without a blink... or their brothers, sisters, parents. Even chimps do it. I don't see any of them feeling remorse for doing so.

I am not advocating cannibalism btw. I just think it IS better than death, under the right circumstances. Survival may make us have to become more like animals. Is death better than resorting to a temporary animal-like state to get past a hurdle? I don't think so. I would do what those Uruguayan athletes did... eat.

Animals don't have psychic pain?

 

[realitybites]

I have been a vegetarian before but briefly and not for about 15 or so years. I was an avid Smiths fan when I was a teenager and was mostly vegetarian but primarily because I didn't like eating meat. In my 20s and 30s, I explored and listened to other music and only recently (within the last two months) began listening to the Smiths and Morrissey again. I would say I was leaning toward becoming a vegetarian again but after reading many interviews with Morrissey on the subject over the last two months, he pushed me over the edge to becoming vegetarian. I would say this is unusual since I'm not an impressionable teenager but rather approaching middle age and having a good dose of cynicism to boot. Hearing his words running something to the lines of "I have never heard a good argument for eating meat." I don't know why, but that left quite an impression on me although it's quite a simple statement, really.

First post. Welcome.

 

[Nico]

"I have never heard a good argument for eating meat." Right, so I think this would be categorized as probably not a good argument for eating meat.

 

[Qvist]

Did Morrissey's music introduce you to vegetarianism? Or the possibility of? Or were you first already meat-free and then found Morrissey because of this... say through reading about him? Or learning about his animal rights activism? In other words, which came first?

If you are not vegetarian, do you suffer from cognitive dissonance when reading about his views or listening to Meat is Murder? Have you tried to become a vegetarian and failed? Do you feel guilty? Or are you an unapologetic meat eater? And you feel you can fully appreciate his music regardless of your dietary choices?

Please share your story. I am interested.

Nope, not really, no I wasn@t, never really cared much about it, neither came at all.

No, certainly not, not in the slightest, yes I am, and yes with no problem whatsoever.

Except as context for the song Meat is Murder, I do not really find his animal hangup either very interesting nor very relevant to his art. He is interesting for what he has to say about the human condition, and his animal rights fanaticism to me is really not so much provocative as a tiresome distraction.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

First post. Welcome.

yeah, what she said
as for the issue at hand, got to say, it often has struck me as such a first world luxury to even be having this as such a constant point of discussion for some
I know its not fair, but I cannot help but have the puritanical, "morally" driven alcohol prohibitionists of American history come to mind
and the more I live in places less "fortunate" than the relatlively low populated, often priviliged places I and many I have known come from
well, the more issues like:

inequaulity in wealth
sexism
racism
warmongering
crime
pollution

take up the headspace inside me when it comes to what is wrong with the world
but its not that eating of animals does not rank as nowhere to me
and cerntainly I am as sickened by its "industrial production" as any are
however, I cannot be anything but thankful when kind hearted poor people have slaughtered some animal that they have raised
for a feast in my honor, or similar things like that which I have experienced in my travel filled life
to do anything less would be to insult them
I know this only all too well, as I have been around Western vegetarians who have done such a thing more than once

interesting to note here that I probably don't remember the people who simply did not eat the meat offered to them
or those that begged off in some manner which made it clear that they simply could not eat meat
but its those few that wore it like some badge of honor and insulted our hosts, these people I actually felt the need to apoligize for
for they insult not only all vegetarians when they do such, but all us Westerners

also, I honestly believe that in a world with ever diminishing resources that massive meat consumption will become a luxury few can afford
my only hope is that by then the high protein alternatives will be more widely available and afforable than they are now
not everyone lives around the corner from say:

 

[Peterb]

I wonder how veggies and vegans would answer this:
Is it the cruelty that appears to be inherent in the meat industry that drives you?
If you could be certain that the animals were treated humanely and slaughtered in as painless a manner as possible, would this change anything?

 

[MadeinSalford]

I wonder how veggies and vegans would answer this:
Is it the cruelty that appears to be inherent in the meat industry that drives you?
If you could be certain that the animals were treated humanely and slaughtered in as painless a manner as possible, would this change anything?

Peterb, I would not, I have never liked meat or the idea of eating a dead animal so no, it would not change anything for me personally, but I would certainly appreciate if it was the case that animals were treated and slaughtered humanely.

 

[Peterb]

Peterb, I would not, I have never liked meat or the idea of eating a dead animal so no, it would not change anything for me personally, but I would certainly appreciate if it was the case that animals were treated and slaughtered humanely.

Thanks MadeinSalford. You see, I think it would make a difference in my case.
So, both of us are vegetarians but of a different kidney (no pun intended).
I'd be interested to see how other veggies respond.

 

[Steve Croce]

I wonder how veggies and vegans would answer this:
Is it the cruelty that appears to be inherent in the meat industry that drives you?
If you could be certain that the animals were treated humanely and slaughtered in as painless a manner as possible, would this change anything?

I elected to embrace veganism as a preventative measure against my genetic predisposition to Cancer... So, I suppose I am driven by selfishness.

 

[realitybites]

I elected to embrace veganism as a preventative measure against my genetic predisposition to Cancer... So, I suppose I am driven by selfishness.

Oh, so you aren't morally superior after all. You can step down from that pedestal now.

Btw, why do you judge carnists (your word) so harshly then? Isn't that like a diabetic referring to sucrose consumers as sugarists?

 

[CrookedLittleVein]

In my case, it's all purely coincidental.

I'd considered becoming a vegetarian when I was about 10, as a school friend of mine was veggie, but I lacked the conviction and, y'know, I was ten. But, from that point on, it was always there at the back of my mind, but it was a pretty weak force.

My girlfriend (now wife) introduced me to The Smiths when I was eighteen. Although I'd appreciated Morrissey and The Smiths prior to this, I'd refused to buy any contemporary music from about the age of 15, so can't really be said to have been 'in to' The Smiths. I just listened to old rock and roll records -- Eddie Cochran, Fats Domino, Elvis. Looking back, this was all a bit of an adolescent pose . My wife was not converted to vegetarianism by Morrissey; she was vegetarian already by religion -- Hindu. And she was introduced to The Smiths by her cousin. He was not drawn to Morrissey on the grounds of vegetarianism as, although a Hindu, he ate meat (some Hindus are veggie and some aren't; it's quite a laid-back religion).

So, it's all a bit of a coincidence.

I appreciate Morrissey's conviction, but I'm more opposed to the Meat Industry than the eating of meat as such.

It's the "death for no reason" that resonates with me. There's no reason for me to eat meat. So, why bring suffering of any kind to any creature? I'm sure if I was stuck on a desert island with nothing but a pig to eat, it would be bacon before sundown. If you left me on a desert island with nothing to eat but another person, I'm sure, eventually, there'd be 'long pig' on the menu.

I find Morrissey's passion for vegetarianism both admirable and slightly alarming in its intensity. But it's not a big part of why I consider him to be my favourite singer and songwriter (and I do consider him a songwriter, not simply a lyricist). Perhaps, it's because he has always been (now more than ever) slightly alarming, that he continues to command my attention. Who knows?

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Here's an example of psychic pain. The early Mariah Carey is just a bonus.



(It's a happy ending so not too hard to watch.)

 

[Steve Croce]

Oh, so you aren't morally superior after all. You can step down from that pedestal now.

Btw, why do you judge carnists (your word) so harshly then? Isn't that like a diabetic referring to sucrose consumers as sugarists?

I never meant to imply that I stand in judgement of carnists. I don't.

"Carnist" isn't my word. It's just a label for an elective lifestyle and is no more derogatory or offensive than words like vegan, pacifist, or Catholic.

 

[realitybites]

I never meant to imply that I stand in judgement of carnists. I don't.

"Carnist" isn't my word. It's just a label for an elective lifestyle and is no more derogatory or offensive than words like vegan, pacifist, or Catholic.

I have never seen the term carnist used by a meat eater. Not saying it isn't. Anyhow, I don't know of any humans that live solely on meat... a carnivore. Most eat plants as well as meat... omnivores. Perhaps omnivorist would be a better term? If you must have one. I mean, vegans and vegetarians seem like to be accurately defined. So do us omnivores.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I have never seen the term carnist used by a meat eater. Not saying it isn't. Anyhow, I don't know of any humans that live solely on meat... a carnivore. Most eat plants as well as meat... omnivores. Perhaps omnivorist would be a better term? If you must have one. I mean, vegans and vegetarians seem like to be accurately defined. So do us omnivores.

Atheists like to be defined. THey don't eat God.

 

[realitybites]

Here's an example of psychic pain. The early Mariah Carey is just a bonus.



(It's a happy ending so not too hard to watch.)

Propaganda at its finest. The song takes it up a notch. I love when humans describe animal behavior anthropomorphically. As if we know exactly what motivates them to do all they do. Like those narrated nature shows. Speculation!

Not saying that animals do not suffer from fear, stress, and even some degree of detachment pain--physical and emotional. But they do not suffer psychic pain such as regret, embarrassment, shame, empathy, and guilt... emotions that a human would experience if they had to eat their own kind in order to survive... cannibalism. Humans are appalled at the notion. Animals are not. They suffer from NO MORAL DILEMMA. If they don't eat their own it is because it is not in their best interest to do so as individuals or as a group. We don't do it because we have empathy. And we fear that we will be inflicted with unbearable psychic suffering if we engage in this practice.

 

[realitybites]

Atheists like to be defined. THey don't eat God.

Have you lost something?

 

[CrystalGeezer]

But they do not suffer psychic pain such as regret, embarrassment, shame, empathy, and guilt...

This monkey in a snowsuit is displaying embarrassment and shame as people laugh at him trying to maneuver in a snowsuit. He can't even look his handler in the face after she tosses him in the air because she's having so much fun at his expense. At the end he gives up and sits. Psychic pain.

 

[Iona Mink]

The vegetarians who never liked meat... like Uncleskinny... find giving up meat is not a sacrifice at all. They are the ones that seem to be able to stick with it for life. Did you ever enjoy eating meat? Do you dislike the taste as well? Reminds me of those super tasters who sense bitterness in foods to a much greater degree than most folks. Thus they shy away from broccoli and other bitter foods. Maybe we will discover a similar trait in those who don't like the taste of meat. Maybe one day we will genetically select for this trait in our offspring... creating a world of people who don't have to be convinced to not eat meat. They don't want to anyhow.

I was a Morrissey fan before I became vegetarian. He didn't change my eating habits. I came to the decision based on other factors. I loved the taste of meat. I would eat anything and everything. I think the only animal I didn't really like was rabbit but if you could eat it I would and of the animals I had tried in my former meat eating life, I enjoyed all of them. I've been a vegetarian close to 25 years now.

I wonder how veggies and vegans would answer this:
Is it the cruelty that appears to be inherent in the meat industry that drives you?
If you could be certain that the animals were treated humanely and slaughtered in as painless a manner as possible, would this change anything?

It's not the cruelty that primarily drives me. It is the loss of life.