"politics are personal"....

Qvist

Active Member
Emerson was a favorite of Nietzsche's, though probably not such a major influence. Nietzsche would still have been Nietzsche if he hadn't read Emerson. But I've just finished a study of the Symbolists and it's actually possible to argue that an entire run of major French writers, from Baudelaire to Proust, would not have been the same without Poe. Bit of a stretch, but not impossible.

Not a stretch at all, in my opinion. Especially Baudelaire of course, where the debt is explicit and acknowledged.
 

salfordladalone

New Member
What the f*** is this thread still doing in general discussion?? This thread is annoying me a lot. I come here to garner information about Morrissey not to see a few pretentious pricks fouling up the forum with endless verbal diarrhoea massaging their own weird 'egos' use the PM function and f*** OFF!
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Not a stretch at all, in my opinion. Especially Baudelaire of course, where the debt is explicit and acknowledged.

Baudelaire, for sure, but Arthur Symons linked several authors together, chronologically, noting key lines of influence between each. It's pretty surprising to see Poe's influence ripple through the work of several different writers, not just the usual suspects (Baudelaire and Mallarme). All the way down to Lou Reed! :lbf:
 

Black Cloud

Case Sensitive
What the f*** is this thread still doing in general discussion?? This thread is annoying me a lot. I come here to garner information about Morrissey not to see a few pretentious pricks fouling up the forum with endless verbal diarrhoea massaging their own weird 'egos' use the PM function and f*** OFF!

Then you should use the "ignore" function, which seems to be what they have done with me since nobody bothered to respond to my post. :rolleyes: I'd stay around and commiserate, but the rosin has rolled under the 300's and I have to go and find it.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Then you should use the "ignore" function, which seems to be what they have done with me since nobody bothered to respond to my post. :rolleyes: I'd stay around and commiserate, but the rosin has rolled under the 300's and I have to go and find it.

Heh. Hardly. I am incapable of having multiple pseudo-intellectual conversations at once, that's all. :rolleyes:
 

CrystalGeezer

My secret's my enzyme.
Why exactly is this under General Discussion again?

Because discussions of politics aren't very moving? Geddit? Geddit? :D

No but really, I have an appreciation for the New Yorker segment of the forum where I always dwell in the People Magazine section. :p
 

Qvist

Active Member
What the f*** is this thread still doing in general discussion?? This thread is annoying me a lot. I come here to garner information about Morrissey not to see a few pretentious pricks fouling up the forum with endless verbal diarrhoea massaging their own weird 'egos' use the PM function and f*** OFF!

And it hasnt occurred to you to simply, you know, not read the thread? Is that terribly difficult? Or do you just enjoy being annoyed by topics you dont understand? Do I walk people around complaining that Im here to read about Morrissey, not to have my intellligence insulted by numbnuts discussing what animal they'd like to compare Morrissey to? No I dont. I just ignore the thread.

Moron. Piss off, and leave us alone.
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
Anaesthesine is right to say Reagan and the Moral Majority creeps declared war on homosexuality, most repugnantly of all in calling AIDS a gay disease. It forced many people to form their own special interest groups to defend themselves and look out for their rights. But it's precisely in that defensive strategy that something crucial was sacrificed: broad social solidarity, the basis of democracy, "E pluribus unum". As soon as we defend our little faction, and not the social body as a whole, we are doomed. Divide and conquer: a tactic as old as the world, and we're doing it for them!

If I may, I'd like to comment on the above quoted part of your post. 'Broad social solidarity' is not something that can be taken for granted. During the Miners Strike in the 80's, the strikers, almost exclusivley gruff hard working men from the north and other mining areas, often had difficulties aligning themselves to us trendy Londoners with our flared trousers and progressive politics and many certainly had problems with feminism and out gay attitudes. Nevertheless, things changed and outlooks moved on. So, in this case, the loss of solidarity was overcome and personal politics actually bought the movement together. (We still lost the strike though but the lasting legacy of the action is a positive one!).
 

Qvist

Active Member
Then you should use the "ignore" function, which seems to be what they have done with me since nobody bothered to respond to my post. I'd stay around and commiserate, but the rosin has rolled under the 300's and I have to go and find it.
Not at all. Just behind on replies. Theres been a lot of posts in a short time.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
If I may, I'd like to comment on the above quoted part of your post. 'Broad social solidarity' is not something that can be taken for granted. During the Miners Strike in the 80's, the strikers, almost exclusivley gruff hard working men from the north and other mining areas, often had difficulties aligning themselves to us trendy Londoners with our flared trousers and progressive politics and many certainly had problems with feminism and out gay attitudes. Nevertheless, things changed and outlooks moved on. So, in this case, the loss of solidarity was overcome and personal politics actually bought the movement together. (We still lost the strike though but the lasting legacy of the action is a positive one!).

Breaking workers' movements doesn't help anyone. There is a lag time between labor defeats and the negative impacts on the "trendy" cityfolk with "flared trousers and progressive politics", but sooner or later, in some form or fashion, what's bad for the workers turns out to be bad for everyone else. The US and UK have waged war on labor for thirty years. It was all okay when people sat on the couch in comfort, watching on TV as Reagan terminated the air traffic controllers en masse. In 2011, though, the same people no longer have job security, if they even have jobs, they have little to no rights as employees, and they're watching their retirement funds vanish into smoke while corporate executives pocket obscene amounts of cash (and all this they see between brain-deadening shows watched on cheap imported TVs sitting on a cheap imported sofa). The one really smart thing Occupy Wall Street did was popularize the idea of the 99%. Miners and pretty boys need to understand they're in the same boat. With seven billion people crowding a dying planet, we can't think the way we used to.
 
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Peterb

Well-Known Member
Breaking workers' movements doesn't help anyone. There is a lag time between labor defeats and the negative impacts on the "trendy" cityfolk with "flared trousers and progressive politics", but sooner or later, in some form or fashion, what's bad for the workers turns out to be bad for everyone else. The US and UK have waged war on labor for thirty years. It was all okay when people sat on the couch in comfort, watching on TV as Reagan terminated the air traffic controllers en masse. In 2011, though, the same people no longer have job security, if they even have jobs, they have little to no rights as employees, and they're watching their retirement funds vanish into smoke while corporate executives pocket obscene amounts of cash (and all this they see between brain-deadening shows watched on cheap imported TVs sitting on a cheap imported sofa). The one really smart thing Occupy Wall Street did was popularize the idea of the 99%. Miners and pretty boys need to understand they're in the same boat. With seven billion people crowding a dying planet, we can't think the way we used to.

I think you may of misunderstood my post (although that's only my fault). I was attempting to explain that when the Miners went out on strike, they got massive support from us London trendies. We marched together and got together at functions and it was here where the disparate cultures met. We were not breaking them, we were supporting them. And in the long run I think it was a good thing. The progressive politics that thrive in cities bled into smaller communities. How the loss of the strike detrimentally affected the left and civil rights is a subject I do not feel qualified to expand upon.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
I think you may of misunderstood my post (although that's only my fault). I was attempting to explain that when the Miners went out on strike, they got massive support from us London trendies. We marched together and got together at functions and it was here where the disparate cultures met. We were not breaking them, we were supporting them. And in the long run I think it was a good thing. The progressive politics that thrive in cities bled into smaller communities. How the loss of the strike detrimentally affected the left and civil rights is a subject I do not feel qualified to expand upon.

Sorry, my mistake.
 

Anaesthesine

Angel of Distemper
For the record, I'm neither a feminist nor a Hitchens fan. They're lost.

Then you should use the "ignore" function, which seems to be what they have done with me since nobody bothered to respond to my post. :rolleyes:

I always enjoy your well-written posts BC. Even if you do not believe in social, political or economic equality for women, thereby aiding and abetting the disenfranchisement of half of humankind, you seem like a good egg.

A Saudi woman is currently scheduled to be publicly beaten in her own country for the terrible crime of driving a car while female. She has entered a legal appeal in a country where the courts are stacked against her. The judgement will be handed down in four days. She earned an MLA here in the States where our decadent Western culture has, in the wake of feminism, put silly ideas of empowerment and self-determination in her head. :rolleyes:

Off topic!! Stop wanking over each other in the general forum what the hell has this pseudo intellectual shite got to do with Morrissey? OFF TOPIC!!

:D You must be joking. More pseudo intellectual shit has been spewed over Morrissey than over almost any other pop star in history (short of Dylan or Lennon). It's a time-honored tradition. Since you've been reading the thread (or at least keeping track of the word count), you should be able to see how The Smiths and Morrissey fit into any discussion of Reagan/Thatcher era politics and culture.

Now that we're off-topic, I hope that you can find some peace. :rolleyes:

Edit: I am aware of ancient and current matriarchal traditions in non-Western societies, but it is Western decadence, informed by both the cultural upheaval of the '60s and the steady march of progressive values that is seen as a threat to traditional patriarchal traditions. That and Morrissey. :D
 
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Black Cloud

Case Sensitive
I always enjoy your well-written posts BC. Even if you do not believe in social, political or economic equality for women, thereby aiding and abetting the disenfranchisement of half of humankind, you seem like a good egg.

A Saudi woman is currently scheduled to be publicly beaten in her own country for the terrible crime of driving a car while female. She has entered a legal appeal in a country where the courts are stacked against her. The judgement will be handed down in four days. She earned an MLA here in the States where our decadent Western culture has, in the wake of feminism, put silly ideas of empowerment and self-determination in her head. :rolleyes:

Your response beautifully illustrates why I am not a feminist; thanks for that. It reminds me of the time I was called a Zionist for saying I didn't like suicide bombers. As a woman, I object to the idea that order to correctly love the other beings on the planet I have to affiliate myself with a group where this sort of hyperbole is so often employed in attempts to advance the agenda. It defies common sense, and I believe that women can do better. ;)
 

Iona Mink

Despitemybetterjudgement
Your response beautifully illustrates why I am not a feminist; thanks for that. It reminds me of the time I was called a Zionist for saying I didn't like suicide bombers. As a woman, I object to the idea that order to correctly love the other beings on the planet I have to affiliate myself with a group where this sort of hyperbole is so often employed in attempts to advance the agenda. It defies common sense, and I believe that women can do better. ;)

So does that mean you disagree with the ideology or the movement (of which there are many factions and branches)?
 
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Anaesthesine

Angel of Distemper
Your response beautifully illustrates why I am not a feminist; thanks for that. It reminds me of the time I was called a Zionist for saying I didn't like suicide bombers. As a woman, I object to the idea that order to correctly love the other beings on the planet I have to affiliate myself with a group where this sort of hyperbole is so often employed in attempts to advance the agenda. It defies common sense, and I believe that women can do better. ;)

This has nothing to do with "correct" behavior (a tired old trope), and everything to do with being treated with the respect and dignity that every human being deserves. Feminists are not a group or a clique - they are men and women who believe that both sexes have equal status as human beings on this planet. Feminism spans countries, ethnicities, religions, and political systems. It is a universal acknowledgement of basic human rights.

Look at Wangari Maathai, who managed to fight for both the environment and civil rights while leading a movement that addressed issues of poverty, hunger and economic injustice in Kenya and all across Africa. Talk about loving your fellow beings - there's no greater love than that. Egalitarian, compassionate, and ultimately very realistic about human motivations and needs, her brand of feminism wasn't some ivory tower theorizing by a first world academic, it was a boots-on-the-ground movement to improve the lives of all her people, and it worked.

Feminism is common sense, and nothing more.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Pledging allegiance to common sense is the same as aligning yourself with a special interest group. It just happens to be a group so big and so powerful it goes unnoticed.

Feminism taught me that. :guitar:
 
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