people, things and events that shaped Moz

[King Leer]

The Goat,

I enjoyed your post about your school days and how they mirrored Moz', and tens of thousands of others it seems. It's all about the way Morrissey took those influences and made them his own.

How was Primal Scream? Little Barrie (who filled in for Alain Whyte for a little bit) is their guitarist now, right?

 

[The Goat]

Thanks Worm
Yes, there was 3 kind of schools.
1. Grammer school - for the clever kids! You had to pass your 11+ exams when aged 10 / 11 to get into the grammer school, they wouldnt take anyone who failed. Basically creamed off all the good kids!

2. Special schools - for those basically just not able to cope with mainstream schooling for behavioural, mental or whatever reason. small classes and higher ratio of staff to kids

3. Comprehensive school - for the rest! 30 - 35 in a class regardless of ability. Morrissey went to a catholic run school, I went to a 'normal' school. by that i mean they werent called Protestant schools, they were just schools! only the catholics were 'highlighted' as such. There was always an 'edge' when you played the catholic schools at football or whatever sport, always more fouls and fights afterwards (mini bus being stoned) than when we played them than for 'normal' schools. you have to understand this was in the mid 70's and the IRA were well active (bomb scares all the time in swimming baths and shopping centres). The catholic schools generally were at the lower end of the scale when it came to exam results for whatever reason (a different subject!). Some catholic schools were run by nuns or they had a big imput into discipline etc. My school taught RE but no one took it seriously and it wasnt compulsory after the third year (or year 9 as it is now). The main thing with all of the schools was corporal punishment. The teachers thrived on it. im sure most got off on it too. have you seen the film Kes? Check it out, the bit when they are getting caned by the head for smoking. and one lad had only gone to deliver a note but the head wont hear him, his mind is made up! There were some evil bastard teachers who would whack you for anything but also some good ones (especially the two female ones i had a crush on mentioned above!!)
people say we should still cane kids at school - i totally disagree given that i was caned for no reason and feel injustice to this day......

Hope that has given you an insight.
Incidentally, my eldest brother was the same age as Morrissey (I say was as he is no longer alive) and he was one of the influences on me as we stayed up late just before his final exams in 1975 (I was 12) as he had to watch Kes and a taste of honey on TV to help him with his exams. I recall for a few years just after easter, they played all the kitchen sink dramas especially to help students as they knew that is what they read (or should have done!) at school.

The Goat

 

[The Goat]

King Leer
Just read your post - sorry it was on 2nd page!
Yes Primal Scream was very good, top form. Finished off with Loaded and transformed it into Sympathy for the devil and back into Loaded.
Bloody hell, yes Little Barrie. I heard he was playing and was chuffed - his new single 'Pin that badge' is played a lot on Revolution Radio.
Anyway, I arrive and am told the support was The View so i buggered off to the pub instead, a bit disappointed he wasnt supporting the Scream.
I was a bit pissed after the band came on and kept saying how the guitarist looked like Johnny Marr and didnt put two and two together until you said he was playing with the band not supporting them!!!! Doh!!!!

The Dozy Goat

 

[Sphinx]

The Goat
I loved your descriptions of the school system.

I'm a little younger than you, but got put through 12+ and shoved in the equivalent type of school you did. We didnt get all abilities in our classes, as we were "streamed" by ability the day we arrived and divided by gender for some subjects too. Caning was regular and public caning - an event!

 

[Worm]

Interesting about the schools. I guess I would have gone to a normal comprehensive had I been born English. The schools I attended were crammed with about 30-35 kids in a class and ranged from the bright to the prison-bound. 50-60% of the students in my large, state-funded school-- our graduation ceremony was held in a football stadium-- were written off completely. Most of the reading was standard fare (Shakespeare, Fitzgerald, early Joyce and the like) although one or two maverick teachers snuck in some more dangerous fare on the side.

Sounds like Morrissey's reading list, aside from some more obscure authors like Radclyffe Hall, was fairly common. People in this thread have said that it's not the influences per se, but what we make of them that defines us. True in a general sense, but I've always thought Morrissey's literary tastes were not so unusual and in some respects even conventional. It's nice to have this partially confirmed, allowing (as I do) that his reading habits then and now are still largely a mystery.

Finally, I am sorry about your brother, Goat.

 

[nightandday]

I agree with Goat. I think far too much is made of Morrissey's childhood experiences in an attempt to try and make him seem unique.

The whole "didn't get on with his Dad" thing is a case in point. Father/son relationships are usually the most problematic in families. Most fathers and sons experience a certain amount of tension. It's only natural when the father is concerned for his son and wants to see him making a life for himself. There isn't so much pressure on daughters.

Also, .when parent's divorce it's usually natural that the children stay with the mother (because she has been the main carer) and have a closer relationship with her. That doesn't mean it's an unnaturally close relationship.

How would that make him unique? Everyone is shaped by their childhood/teenage experiences. There is no way you could "make too much of it". Or you might say that everybody is "unique". You could analyze every single person on this board and every person you know from school or from work in exactly the same way.

What is the point of insisting on relationships within the family being 'natural' or 'unnatural'? What does it even mean? Boys/men being very attached to their mothers even when they grow up - that's not at all an uncommon situation. I know or know of many people like that - in each and every case it's quite obvious that it has had quite an influence on their character and life. Many men have had strained relationships with their fathers - does that mean that they're less influenced by that relationship, just because there are other people with the same problems? And every other person I know has been shaped by their relationship with their parents and siblings (and other things, but family is certainly one of the most important factors). Why is it suddenly wrong to bring it up??! Has psychology become a taboo? I thought people understood that everyone has their own psychological problems / has had them while growing up - it doesn't mean that you should be considered an 'oddity' or 'abnormal'.

And if you are claiming that Morrissey really was in no way shaped by either his relationships with his parents, his school days, or the books he read, because everyone went through exactly the same things - then what was he shaped by? Nothing? He was born with all the character traits already formed?!

 

[Danny]

You don't at all think analysing Morrissey's relationship with his parents is at all intrusive or tacky? Particularly when there's only a few journalists speculations to go on?

It's not psychology. It's celebrity gossip masquerading as psychology.

 

[nightandday]

You don't at all think analysing Morrissey's relationship with his parents is at all intrusive or tacky? Particularly when there's only a few journalists speculations to go on?

It's not psychology. It's celebrity gossip masquerading as psychology.

You don't have "just a few journalists' speculations to go on", but if you're so uncomfortable and annoyed by it, all right then - you might say that it's intrusive to analyze anybody. And he really shouldn't have talked about his school or his parents' marriage, we didn't need to know if they got along or not. We don't really need to know anything at all about his life, which pretty much puts an end to this thread, I think?

 

[Danny]

You don't have "just a few journalists' speculations to go on", but if you're so uncomfortable and annoyed by it, all right then - you might say that it's intrusive to analyze anybody. And he really shouldn't have talked about his school or his parents' marriage, we didn't need to know if they got along or not. We don't really need to know anything at all about his life, which pretty much puts an end to this thread, I think?

What do you have other than what a few journalists have said then? I don't recall Morrissey ever being very forthcoming about his parents. He just stated the bare facts that they didn't get on and divorced. That doesn't give everyone else the right to make up the rest.

 

[nightandday]

What do you have other than what a few journalists have said then? I don't recall Morrissey ever being very forthcoming about his parents. He just stated the bare facts that they didn't get on and divorced. That doesn't give everyone else the right to make up the rest.

Telling an interviewer that he never saw his parents kiss or hug is a little bit more than bare facts (unless you believe that the interviewer made it up, but in that case you should question anything printed in every interview he ever gave to a magazine). Nobody forced him to do that. And I can't remember anyone making up anything about his relationship with his mother, the things I posted are bare facts. When a journalist writes that "Morrissey never writes songs about women unless they're about his mother", that's speculation and assumption based on nothing; when several people from The Smiths camp and Rough Trade employees talk about her involvement in her son's career, I would say that's more than 'speculation'. If you think that people who knew Morrissey/have worked with him are not to be believed, I don't know who to believe then.

 

[Sunbags]

Of course, quite a lot is down to genetics, but, as we all know, when it comes to character, it's 'nurture' that is crucial, not 'nature'.

Just out of curiousity, what exactly were you saying was down to genetics?

When it comes to Morrissey and his school days, he and all the people who knew him witness that he was never physically punished by teachers or bullied by his peers, and that he wasn't physically aggressive either. Instead, he was someone who was thought of as 'odd' and distant from others, because he reacted to his environment by withdrawing into his own world. That's what happened.

I don't know if that's true, I remember Morrissey mentioning that he was playing football at school and one of the teachers was playing too. He tackled the teacher, and the teacher started kicking him. In Rogan's book, I also remember that Morrissey was asked to fetch a stack of bibles (I think). Then, for some reason or another, the teacher attacked him. Of course, I'm just going on memory, can anyone else confirm?

 

[Worm]

In looking at his past, we have to be willing-- as Rogan often isn't, and professionaly speaking can't be-- to see nothing. I think the plain truth is just that, plain. He probably came from an average background and because of his innate gifts, incredible passion, and a bit of good luck he was able to escape into his dreams. It's good to remember that at one time they were just that, dreams. They took place in his head, behind closed doors, and no amount of interviews can crack that vault. But some picture of his life is helpful in unlocking his lyrics' meaning not because we can get at the answer to various riddles but because we can get an idea, however vague it might be sometimes, of how much of the autobiography he gives us in his songs is invented, and how much is genuine.

This is a crucial distinction because the vital element of his lyrics is his normalcy-- often expressed as outrage over his inability to be normal for whatever reason-- not his supposedly Wildean characteristics. The words are conservative, I feel, adding up to an argument against glamour and liberality. The lyrics are witty to be serious, literary to be plainspoken, artistic to be commonplace, and individualized to be universal. For me The Smiths are powerful because they point back to a teenager living a fairly average life in Manchester, not ahead to the pop star liberated on the streets of Rome. When we get lost in his mythology we forget the most important thing of all, which is how he is like us.

 

[nightandday]

Just out of curiousity, what exactly were you saying was down to genetics?

I didn't say anything about that, but you don't really need me to tell you? Physical characteristics, intelligence & talents are considered to be mostly (though not entirely) shaped by genetics a.k.a. 'Nature', while character traits are considered to be mostly (though not entirely) shaped by experience and interaction with the environment, a.k.a. 'Nurture'. A psychologist could tell you about it in more detail, this is just common knowledge, it's even taught in high schools, at least it was in the one I went to.

 

[Sunbags]

Intelligence & talents are considered to be mostly (though not entirely) shaped by genetics a.k.a. 'Nature'

And they taught you this at school? Oh my dear friend Science is taking an awful battering here!

 

[Danny]

Telling an interviewer that he never saw his parents kiss or hug is a little bit more than bare facts (unless you believe that the interviewer made it up, but in that case you should question anything printed in every interview he ever gave to a magazine). Nobody forced him to do that. And I can't remember anyone making up anything about his relationship with his mother, the things I posted are bare facts. When a journalist writes that "Morrissey never writes songs about women unless they're about his mother", that's speculation and assumption based on nothing; when several people from The Smiths camp and Rough Trade employees talk about her involvement in her son's career, I would say that's more than 'speculation'. If you think that people who knew Morrissey/have worked with him are not to be believed, I don't know who to believe then.

I think your problem is you're too eager to find a definitive answer and the truth about Morrissey. You can't find that in various quotes you've picked out of magazines. Being an armchair psychologist may be great fun but it's a bit dangerous if you don't keep in mind that most of it is all about you rather than Morrissey.

 

[nightandday]

I think your problem is you're too eager to find a definitive answer and the truth about Morrissey. You can't find that in various quotes you've picked out of magazines. Being an armchair psychologist may be great fun but it's a bit dangerous if you don't keep in mind that most of it is all about you rather than Morrissey.

Oh, I'm aware it could very well be about me rather than about him - isn't that the case with anyone analyzing Morrissey (or anyone else, for that matter)? People can't help projecting their experiences and views - it's inevitable. Your views of Morrissey or his lyrics reflect your personality & views as much as mine reflect mine, Worm's reflect his, lilikoi's reflect hers, etc.

I just wonder why people on this and other forums don't mind participating in 1000 discussions about Morrissey's sexuality, with everyone offering their profound observations on his lyrics, fashion sense, mannerisms, relationships with anyone who has crossed his way in the last 30 years, you name it - but the moment I bring up his relationship with his parents, everyone seems upset?

 

[nightandday]

And they taught you this at school? Oh my dear friend Science is taking an awful battering here!

............

 

[Sunbags]

............

Me too!

 

[Jones]

Oh, I'm aware it could very well be about me rather than about him - isn't that the case with anyone analyzing Morrissey (or anyone else, for that matter)? People can't help projecting their experiences and views - it's inevitable. Your views of Morrissey or his lyrics reflect your personality & views as much as mine reflect mine, Worm's reflect his, lilikoi's reflect hers, etc.

I just wonder why people on this and other forums don't mind participating in 1000 discussions about Morrissey's sexuality, with everyone offering their profound observations on his lyrics, fashion sense, mannerisms, relationships with anyone who has crossed his way in the last 30 years, you name it - but the moment I bring up his relationship with his parents, everyone seems upset?

Because it's a little intrusive to his parents. Morrissey has made the choice to be a public figure, his parent's haven't. And most of the discussion around his parents seems to be in terms of criticising them. He's not close enough to his Dad, therefore his Dad must be a bad parent. He's too close to his Mum, therefore his Mum must be a bad parent.

I think sometimes we forget these are real people we are talking about. People who can get hurt.

 

[imogen11]

I didnt realise he had a close relationship with his sister, just from those postcards to his penpal but I guess teens re like that

Hmm...does anybody else out there suspicious in regards to those 'postcards'. I've always assumed they're fake.