On the topic of M&M vs. Joyce and Rourke. Can someone clarify this?

D

Dave

Guest
I doubt Mike And Andy had access to Morrissey and Marr's bank records...so it's reasonable to believe they thought they were getting the same amount they were getting....

You don't need to see your partner's bank records. Get a lawyer and get an audit. If you're taking the position that they didn't know, I'm taking the position that they should have tried to find out. What I'd always thought is that they didn't know because they were partying and enjoying being rock stars while the business matters were being handled for them. If that was the case they couldn't really complain.

But on the other hand, it seems they did know, found it unfair, but agreed to it. If that was the case they really can't complain. This is actually a better case for Morrissey/Marr, makes them look like honest businessmen, whereas the first scenario makes them look like everyone else in the music business.

I've read about the Rolling Stones, and they're sort of notorious for crediting songs to Jagger/Richards even though the songs were "written" as jams with several people contributing. Ron Wood said in an interview "for several years I was credited 'inspiration by' ". Did he pack it up? No, because he was in the Rolling Stones. That's how it works.

Then you have Van Halen that divided everything 25% each member. So even though Michael Anthony never wrote anything ( I think), and a lot of times, it's Eddie playing bass on the records, he still got 25%. For them, that's how they did it. Now in their case it meant that Eddie was getting his brother a good deal, since he was the drummer and wouldn't have gotten writing credit in most situations. I guess a lot of the biggest hits, the early stuff, was written byt Eddie and Alex jamming, making demos, and then David Lee Roth taking the tapes and putting words to it, so whatever. I'm just saying there are different models.

The Beatles are interesting. George had to write his own songs by himself and would be lucky to get two on a record. Wouldn't it seem that with their "all you need is love" mentality that at some point, George and John might have written a song? No, it wasn't allowed.

People do it different ways but a contract is a contract. If you pay me to mow your lawn, I can't come back the next day and ask for more money for work I already did.

It's nice that you are for fairness, but I just think a contract should be honored. Yes, renegotiation is allowed, but once the work is completed? No.

Also, I always think, if The Smiths were offered a reunion tour and Morrissey and Marr decided to do it, what percentage would Mike Joyce work for? He wouldn't walk away from 10%. That's the bottom line.

If I had my way, Morrissey would demonstrate this by doing a Smiths concert with Joyce, if he would sign a new contract giving up all past claims, and agreeing to get 10% of the proceeds of maybe a London/Los Angeles "Pink Floyd The Wall" type of "tour". Everyone would benefit and it would all be over. I'd also start the negotiations offering 5% in case he'd settle for 7%. Give the extra 3% to PETA and get the tax deduction.
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
Dave,

I always find your reasoning to difficult to argue with...

Personally, I try to forget that The Smiths are the most talented band to ever existed, forget that Morrissey is the most brilliant writer who ever lived...and look at the situation from an objective point of view...regardless of whether they were decieved or "forced" to accept the 10%...it was a screw job..because it obviously wasn't what they would have wanted, and it was obviously not something they were told the day they joined the band...

Devious or unethetical....Morrissey and Marr either didn't tell them or put them in the position where they had no choice but accept it...and that is what I believe was wrong...

Regardless of Mike's tactics of late, Morrissey wouldn't be in this position if he had dealt with Mike fairly to begin with...or if he had paid the man what the court order him to do 10 years ago...Johnny shut up..paid the man his dues..and has moved on with his life...

It's time for Morrissey to do the same...he needs to stop acting like the World is against him...to grow up and accept responsibility
 

2-J

Member
Regardless of Mike's tactics of late, Morrissey wouldn't be in this position if he had dealt with Mike fairly to begin with...or if he had paid the man what the court order him to do 10 years ago...Johnny shut up..paid the man his dues..and has moved on with his life...

It's time for Morrissey to do the same...he needs to stop acting like the World is against him...to grow up and accept responsibility

Morrissey might have spent more in legal fees than he would have had to pay out if he had settled with Joyce before the case started; but I'm sure for him, that's not the point. The point being, that Mike hasn't got any of his money (or proportionately very little of the judgement, so far).... you've heard arguments in this thread that Joyce wasn't entitled to more than 10%. Fine if you disagree with them, but you must see that to Morrissey it makes perfect sense to withold the money and it's worthwhile evading paying. Judges don't always get it right; they're only human. This is a controversial case and there's more than one reasonable opinion to hold on it.

I'm sure if Johnny felt he could have avoided paying he would have; in the latest Mojo magazine he makes a remark to the effect that someone got their hands on his (Johnny's) money. He doesn't agree with the verdict, he simply paid because it would have been too much hassle for him to up sticks to America like Morrissey did.
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
Morrissey might have spent more in legal fees than he would have had to pay out if he had settled with Joyce before the case started; but I'm sure for him, that's not the point. The point being, that Mike hasn't got any of his money (or proportionately very little of the judgement, so far).... you've heard arguments in this thread that Joyce wasn't entitled to more than 10%. Fine if you disagree with them, but you must see that to Morrissey it makes perfect sense to withold the money and it's worthwhile evading paying. Judges don't always get it right; they're only human. This is a controversial case and there's more than one reasonable opinion to hold on it.

I'm sure if Johnny felt he could have avoided paying he would have; in the latest Mojo magazine he makes a remark to the effect that someone got their hands on his (Johnny's) money. He doesn't agree with the verdict, he simply paid because it would have been too much hassle for him to up sticks to America like Morrissey did.

The laws always make me wonder....I'm surprised Morrissey's allowed to play concerts in the UK if he's in defiance of a court order....but I guess it's two difference issues as far as the courts are concerned
 
D

Dave

Guest
But Morrissey is above these petty human problems. It's like if Superman laid in bed all day and got up only to eat cake and write a poem or something.
 
I'm sure if Johnny felt he could have avoided paying he would have; in the latest Mojo magazine he makes a remark to the effect that someone got their hands on his (Johnny's) money. He doesn't agree with the verdict, he simply paid because it would have been too much hassle for him to up sticks to America like Morrissey did.


Wouldn't you probably? Not saying that it's 'right' or something to admire. That right there is just a natural human response. Unless you're a saint or you really really cared about the other person, but then it seemed like he and Joyce had developed some issues between eachother and Joyce being an asshole about everything. Then again, I don't know the details, I don't know truly what their friendship was like before all the hell broke lose and things said and done. So, honestly, I can't say a word and I just made myself sound like an asshole anyway. :rolleyes:

I assume Johnny is talking about Joyce in this Mojo article? I haven't read it. All I know is that he settled out of court with Rourke. Was that before or after the Joyce court thing? I think with Rourke he may have felt bad about it, since they seemed to be closer and they'd been through a lot more together? I don't know. Again, not saying this is 'right' or 'admirable', but it does kind of make things look less horrible as they seem to come across.
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
Wouldn't you probably? Not saying that it's 'right' or something to admire. That right there is just a natural human response. Unless you're a saint or you really really cared about the other person, but then it seemed like he and Joyce had developed some issues between eachother and Joyce being an asshole about everything. Then again, I don't know the details, I don't know truly what their friendship was like before all the hell broke lose and things said and done. So, honestly, I can't say a word and I just made myself sound like an asshole anyway. :rolleyes:

I assume Johnny is talking about Joyce in this Mojo article? I haven't read it. All I know is that he settled out of court with Rourke. Was that before or after the Joyce court thing? I think with Rourke he may have felt bad about it, since they seemed to be closer and they'd been through a lot more together? I don't know. Again, not saying this is 'right' or 'admirable', but it does kind of make things look less horrible as they seem to come across.

Rourke settled for 15% sometime before 1990...which explains why he continued to work with Morrissey a bit longer
 
No, Moss never threatened to sue...But Johnny paid him soon after quitting The Smiths..which holds crecedence to the theory that Morrissey had some kind of "control" over Johnny's conscious...hence I think it was his idea to short change the other two...and therefore he's responsible for the situation he is now dealing with...


Its pretty obvious most of the control was Morrissey's. He was the one who was literally making the Smiths the Smiths. The face and voice. Without him, they'd not have their singer and lyricist. Not like Johnny would have jumped and taken his place. LOL.


So, what is this about Moss again. Again, a thing I know nothing about, really.
Moss gave them money for what? To record? or helped them get their feet on the ground as a band? Did Johnny want to pay him back from the beginning? Did Moss and Moz have a bad relationship between them or Moz didn't like him for some reason?
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
Its pretty obvious most of the control was Morrissey's. He was the one who was literally making the Smiths the Smiths. The face and voice. Without him, they'd not have their singer and lyricist. Not like Johnny would have jumped and taken his place. LOL.


So, what is this about Moss again. Again, a thing I know nothing about, really.
Moss gave them money for what? To record? or helped them get their feet on the ground as a band? Did Johnny want to pay him back from the beginning? Did Moss and Moz have a bad relationship between them or Moz didn't like him for some reason?

Moss was like their first manager..he helped them get gigs and with equipment and a lot of other stuff...It's in the Rogan book...I think Johnny paid him back like 500 pounds or something...Moss supposedly stepped down because he felt he did his part in helping them get signed and passed them on to rough trade...but of course only he knows the real reason he quit
 
Rourke settled for 15% sometime before 1990...which explains why he continued to work with Morrissey a bit longer


Oh so.. did Moz pay Rourke back as well? It was only Joyce where the issue still stands?

I will admit I never paid much attention at all to what occurred during Morrissey's solo career. I knew Rourke had at some point worked with Morrissey since the Smiths breakup, but was he working with him right from the start of the Moz solo career?

Its just so much to catch up on. :(
 
Moss was like their first manager..he helped them get gigs and with equipment and a lot of other stuff...It's in the Rogan book...I think Johnny paid him back like 500 pounds or something...Moss supposedly stepped down because he felt he did his part in helping them get signed and passed them on to rough trade...but of course only he knows the real reason he quit

Was Moss asking to be paid back before? Or did Johnny just do it because he felt he should have, and was afraid to while still with Moz, for fear Moz would go crazy about it and get mad at him?


Thanks for clearing things up for me, though. I know it's probably a pain in the neck, but I appreciate it. I do indeed need to get my hands on these books.
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
Was Moss asking to be paid back before? Or did Johnny just do it because he felt he should have, and was afraid to while still with Moz, for fear Moz would go crazy about it and get mad at him?


Thanks for clearing things up for me, though. I know it's probably a pain in the neck, but I appreciate it. I do indeed need to get my hands on these books.

I really can't remember...when I have time I'll re-read those parts of the book...I remember it came off like Johnny felt it was the right thing to do...regardless of whether Joe pressed him for it...Morrissey came off with the attitude that "Moss was lucky to have worked with them when they started"...according to Rogan, at least
 
I really can't remember...when I have time I'll re-read those parts of the book...I remember it came off like Johnny felt it was the right thing to do...regardless of whether Joe pressed him for it...Morrissey came off with the attitude that "Moss was lucky to have worked with them when they started"...according to Rogan, at least


I'm assuming Moz is the real reason Moss left then. :confused:

Moz.. Moss... (I keep typing 'Mozz' for Moss everytime. lol.)
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet

nogodsnomasters85

Not Stirred
Heres' a question: How many threads have been devoted to this subject? I think I've seen at least four... I don't think any new info has come to light. Those who know,....it doesn' make much difference, those who don't, just read Severed Alliance. You probably will at some point, anyway.
 
Overall, though. I think it's Moz who broke the whole thing down. Makes me wonder, though. How different would the Smiths have been if say, Johnny was the lead singer/writer and it was just him and R&J? I really doubt all of this nonsense would have occurred and all the financial bullshit, and people being fired constantly, etc. Still, I know Johnny would have been too young and inexperienced to handle the bulk of all of it, but he'd have handled it respectably and hired the right people to help with that end of it. There surely wouldn't have been all the negative, bickering, hateful things going on though.
Doubt that such a scenerio would have meant a long long lasting band, though. But the end of it would have been nonetheless amicable and fair.
 
Heres' a question: How many threads have been devoted to this subject? I think I've seen at least four... I don't think any new info has come to light. Those who know,....it doesn' make much difference, those who don't, just read Severed Alliance. You probably will at some point, anyway.

Can you give me the links to those threads? I haven't been here that long.
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
Can you give me the links to those threads? I haven't been here that long.

Most of them have me stating the same things I've stated here...I think there's a link to one on the first page here...

Basically, regardless of what's happenning now...the rhythm section got screwed
 
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