Obama backs plans for a mosque to be built

[Black Cloud]

Nobody is building a mosque.

I was, but I ran out of Legos.

 

[Worm]

I was, but I ran out of Legos.

They last longer with Logos, anyway.

 

[Dave]

Every news story calls it a mosque. Some call it a community center and mosque.

"President Barack Obama and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) have agreed to disagree on a Muslim group’s controversial plans to build an Islamic community center and mosque a couple of blocks from ground zero in lower Manhattan."

It's interesting about gay rights. I doubt that you will be able to have a gay wedding at the mosque, but if you want to marry a child that should probably be okay, since the Prophet Muhammad "married" a girl who was nine years old. It's all explained here. I recommend X-Rated Pornography in the Bible

Do weddings even occur at mosques? Not sure.

 

[kissmyshadestoo]

i was born in Manhattan. I am a fiercely partisan native of this island.

My husband worked at World Trade Center #7; he was late for work on September 11th, or he would have been one of those ash-covered survivors. Hell, he called me from the train that morning to tell me that he saw smoke coming from one of the towers, but that he was going in anyway. As it turned out he was on the first commuter train to be held one stop before Manhattan. I watched the towers fall, and I didn't know that his train had been stopped. There was no cell phone communication at that point - for all I knew he was right in the middle of it.

So, I'm not a survivor, nor am I related to one, but my life and the life of my family was changed that day, and I can categorically state that I don't care about Cordoba House - it is a non-issue. My husband, who would have been right there if only he'd gotten to work on time that day doesn't care, either.

For those of you unfamiliar with lower Manhattan, the buildings are very, very tall, and two blocks might as well be two miles. It is a very densely packed neighborhood (and there are Mosques that have been here for decades). Cordoba House is not "at" Ground Zero. People should just stop trying to "defend" New York - we can take it, we all live side by side here and we like it that way. The crocodile tears that the rest of the country pours out over "Sodom By The Sea" these days is for the most part a sham; most self-identified "real" Americans hate us pinko/commie/homo/tree-hugging heretics until it's time to beat their chests over Ground Zero. Then and only then is New York a sacred place.

No one I know is upset about this - it's not even a mosque, it's a community center with a prayer room; Feisal Abdul Rauf is a fairly moderate Imam who has spent many years trying to foster good relations between the Muslim and the Western world (and he's not doing a particularly good job these days). FYI Cordoba is a city in Spain that for many centuries was at the crossroads of civilization - it is a place where Christians, Muslims and Jews lived peacefully together, and for that reason it was one of the most significant cultural centers of the ancient world.

Obama is absolutely right - this is America, and no one has the right to tell anyone that they cannot build a house of worship anywhere they damn well please (as long as it's legally zoned). The Imam could have been a bit more sensitive to the ramifications of the situation, but all this hysteria is completely unwarranted. This is still a free country, and every American who wants to stop the YMMA from being erected in that neighborhood needs a civics lesson. I respect the opinions of the families of the dead who are uncomfortable with this, but there is nothing that any politician has to say in opposition to Cordoba House that is anything short of absurd, self-serving, divisive, cynical, wrong-headed and ultimately un-American.

Jesus/Allah/Jehova/ wept.

Well. Freaking. Said.

 

[Theo]

For those of you unfamiliar with lower Manhattan, the buildings are very, very tall, and two blocks might as well be two miles. It is a very densely packed neighborhood (and there are Mosques that have been here for decades). Cordoba House is not "at" Ground Zero.

I appreciate you offering your 2 cents, but I'm curious why you omit some of the key facts that are part of the reason why a majority of Americans are so angry about this issue.

For example, while you state that this Islamic mosque/community center thing (I'll just call it a mosque the rest of the way, because that's essentially what it is) is "not at Ground Zero", you don't even mention that it will replace a building that was damaged by the wreckage of the planes the Muslim hijackers slammed into the Twin Towers. Sorry, I have to raise an eyebrow over your omission of that fact. Even President Obama pointed out that this proposed mosque is to be built on "hallowed grounds".

People should just stop trying to "defend" New York - we can take it,

You also fail to mention that a large majority of New Yorkers oppose the mosque. The poll I saw showed, I think, 2 out of every 3 New Yorkers opposing it. Yet you claim to speak for New York and try and Lord that over others. Furthermore, a number of survivors of 9/11, and family members of 9/11 victims, are amongst those opposing the mosque (apparently Nancy Pelosi intends to have them investigated!).

So, I'm not sure why you're trying to claim that, as a New Yorker, your opinion is the final word. This is a democracy and people can speak their minds. At the end of the day, they have a right to build the mosque. But others have a right to question their motives. I certainly question their motives, and I can't figure out why you don't. Do you really totally fail to comprehend why anyone would question the motives of the people behind this project? Do you also fail to understand that, in a democracy, people have a right to criticisize things even if the people doing those things have a right to do them?

No one I know is upset about this

Heh. That's like when Pauline Kael famously stated, "I don't know how Nixon won. No one I know voted for him." Somehow no one you know is amongst the two-thirds of New Yorkers who are upset about this? Boy, you keep yourself very walled off from folks who don't think exactly like you, don't ya?

Feisal Abdul Rauf is a fairly moderate Imam who has spent many years trying to foster good relations between the Muslim and the Western world

If by "moderate" you mean....well, let me go back to my previously linked Hitchens piece:

The supposed imam of the place, Feisal Abdul Rauf, is on record as saying various shady and creepy things about the original atrocity. Shortly after 9/11, he told 60 Minutes, "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." He added, "In the most direct sense, Osama Bin Laden is made in the USA." More recently, he has declined to identify the racist and totalitarian Hamas party as being guilty of the much less severe designation of terrorist. We are all familiar by now with the peddlers of such distortions and euphemisms and evasions, many of them repeated by half-baked secular and Christian spokesmen. A widespread cultural cringe impels many people to the half-belief that it's better to accommodate "moderates" like Rauf as a means of diluting the challenge of the real thing. So for the sake of peace and quiet, why not have Comedy Central censor itself or the entire U.S. press refuse to show the Danish cartoons?

This kind of capitulation needs to be fought consistently.

I guess we can add to that that this Imam is apparently not opposed to funding from Iran.

Obama is absolutely right - this is America, and no one has the right to tell anyone that they cannot build a house of worship anywhere they damn well please (as long as it's legally zoned).

I have to agree with Rush Limbaugh that it's pretty funny to see leftists suddenly giving a damn about property rights. How come the only time a leftist ever cares about property rights is when a shady Imam wants to build a highly divisive, controversial, and offending mosque where a building damaged by the 9/11 terrorists stands?

BTW, Obama also stated that he will not comment on the wisdom behind the proposed mosque. As I've already stated, I thought it was pretty dumb for Obama to chime in on this matter at all. By doing so, he made it more of a national issue. That Obama himself spoke on the issue in a manner where he appeared to be taking both sides shows what a difficult issue it is. Not sure who's advising the President, but he certainly was as ill-advised to chime in on this one as he was when he chimed in on that matter where the belligerent professor, Gates, had an incident with a Massachussetts police officer. I don't wanna be too hard on Obama here, however. There's plenty to attack Obama on already, seeing as how he's the worst president in history. But, well, he kinda stepped in it here.....

 

[Theo]

This news made one person very happy.

Lost in the news this week is some vindication for Sarah Palin about death panels:

Last month, an FDA advisory board recommended withdrawing government approval of Avastin as a treatment for advanced breast cancer. The decision betrays a bias that puts costs above treatment, and unless the FDA leadership overrules its own experts, the 40,000 women killed by breast cancer each year will be denied an important clinical option.

***
So here we have government-anointed medical patriarchs substituting their own subjective view of Avastin's risks and costs for the value that doctors and patients recognize. If Avastin is rescinded, thousands of dying women will lose more than proverbial false hope in the time they have left. They will lose a genuinely useful medicine.

LINK

See also:

The Avastin recommendation led to revived allegations that President Barack Obama’s overhaul of the US health care system would mean many would be denied treatments currently available.

During the debate, those opposed to the reforms cited Britain’s National Institute for Clinical Excellence, which decides whether new treatments should be made available on the NHS on the basis of cost effectiveness, as an example of the sort of drug rationing that amounted to a "death panel".

David Vitter, the Republican Senator for Louisiana, said the FDA decision amounted to rationing health care.

"I shudder at the thought of a government panel assigning a value to a day of a person’s life," he said. "It is sickening to think that care would be withheld from a patient simply because their life is not deemed valuable enough.

"I fear this is the beginning of a slippery slope leading to more and more rationing under the government takeover of health care that is being forced on the American people."

LINK

Sarah Palin used inflammatory language ("death panels") to draw attention to a very real and legit concern that those trying to quickly ram thru Obama's health care reform did not want to discuss (hell, they were in such a hurry to ram thru their stinky bill against the will of a large majority of the people that no one actually had an opportunity to read or understand it!). This latest news shows she was right to sound to alarm bells.

The silly folks who have made a hobby out of attacking Sarah Palin's children, and the mainstream/pro-Obama media, are unconcerned about this extremely serious, life-and-death issue that Palin forced into the public debate. But there it is.

 

[Theo]

Sarah Palin used inflammatory language ("death panels") to draw attention to a very real and legit concern that those trying to quickly ram thru Obama's health care reform did not want to discuss (hell, they were in such a hurry to ram thru their stinky bill against the will of a large majority of the people that no one actually had an opportunity to read or understand it!). This latest news shows she was right to sound to alarm bells.

Sarah Palin's tactic here is similar to Morrissey writing the song "Meat Is Murder" to draw attention to the abuses of animals by the meat industry. Perhaps it's time for the leftists to grapple with the "death panels" issue. It's real. But I realize that their heads would explode if they had to admit that Sarah Palin was right about something.....

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

According to the newspaper report I saw, the poll that found 60% of New Yorkers oppose the community center, while 60% believe the group has the right to build it, was a telephone poll. Who has a landline these days? Not me. I don't think I know anyone under 40 who does.

 

[Worm]

According to the newspaper report I saw, the poll that found 60% of New Yorkers oppose the community center, while 60% believe the group has the right to build it, was a telephone poll. Who has a landline these days? Not me. I don't think I know anyone under 40 who does.

The data is more complicated than it seems because there is a large portion of respondents who said that they do not support the community center and believe it has a right to be built. Additionally, I've read there is a split between Manhattan and outer boroughs like Staten Island.

Regardless, at this point in time there isn't a poll anyone should fully trust because of the stunning amount of lies and distortions swirling around the topic. A New Yorker's opinion might be trusted over someone else's for a more mundane reason: a New Yorker who knew the area around Ground Zero-- like, say, former New Yorker Al Franken-- would understand that the community center is not going to be visible and therefore cannot be offensive. Once you understand that, the whole issue begins to look like what it is, a cynical political play by the far right.

But as I said I can't see how opinion polls matter anymore. I will trust opinion polls where each person can answer a batch of basic questions correctly before answering the primary questions. Nobody should care if a person opposes the Park51 project if the same person thinks that (say) Obama is a Muslim.

 

[Theo]

A New Yorker's opinion might be trusted over someone else's for a more mundane reason: a New Yorker who knew the area around Ground Zero-- like, say, former New Yorker Al Franken-- would understand that the community center is not going to be visible and therefore cannot be offensive. Once you understand that, the whole issue begins to look like what it is, a cynical political play by the far right.

Al Franken? Al Franken is a former Air America radio host and hardcore leftist. He speaks for all of New York?

CNN:

When asked if they "support or oppose the proposal to build the Cordoba House," New Yorkers said they oppose the facility, which is expected to cost $100 million, by a 63-27 percent margin.

Al Franken, up in Minnesota, speaks for them, though. Because he used to snort cocaine while a rather un-funny cast member on Saturday Night Live.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

The polls are meaningless, not only because of their lack of statistical validity. As we've determined with the Prop 8 issue in CA, the people do not have the right to vote, even as a majority, to pass policies that violate the Constitution. If we were to allow the Cordoba House issue to go to a public vote, we would also have to allow municipalities and counties and even whole states to have referenda on things like banning people of different races from owning property, etc. No matter how many people are racist and would be happy to see racist laws put in place, it cannot be permitted because we've already decided the question. This is why Prop 8 will be completely struck down eventually.

This is what I was trying to get at in a hasty and unfinished post (about "taking issues off the table") on one of these threads last week. It's like a little kid, trying to wheedle out exceptions to the rules. "No, you can't have cookies. You've already brushed your teeth, and it's time for bed." "How about just two cookies?" "No cookies." "One?" "No." "What if I eat half of one cookie, then brush my teeth again?" "*Sigh* No cookies." No, you can't discriminate against gays, or Muslims, or anybody else. We already said you can't, and there are to be no exceptions to the rules. Go to bed!

The question of Cordoba House is a city council matter. It's a question of zoning and nothing more. Is a community center sponsored by a religious organization an appropriate tenant for the space? Would the Christian Scientists or the Mormons be permitted to rent it? Then the Muslims must be permitted to do so.

It's grossly simplistic, but here we can revert to the famous Niemoller quote:

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

 

[Worm]

The polls are meaningless, not only because of their lack of statistical validity. As we've determined with the Prop 8 issue in CA, the people do not have the right to vote, even as a majority, to pass policies that violate the Constitution. If we were to allow the Cordoba House issue to go to a public vote, we would also have to allow municipalities and counties and even whole states to have referenda on things like banning people of different races from owning property, etc. No matter how many people are racist and would be happy to see racist laws put in place, it cannot be permitted because we've already decided the question. This is why Prop 8 will be completely struck down eventually.

From your lips to God's ears. But top Democrat Howard Dean doesn't agree. He's reading opinion polls, just like Harry Reid and every other bootlicking Democrat. Nobody is asking whether or not people are correctly informed about what's going on, but then again nobody asked such questions when Al Gore was torpedoed in 2000, Bush lied our way into Iraq, Kerry was Swift-Boated, and on and on and on and on...

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

From your lips to God's ears. But top Democrat Howard Dean doesn't agree. He's reading opinion polls, just like Harry Reid and every other bootlicking Democrat. Nobody is asking whether or not people are correctly informed about what's going on, but then again nobody asked such questions when Al Gore was torpedoed in 2000, Bush lied our way into Iraq, Kerry was Swift-Boated, and on and on and on and on...

Where's my soapbox? Where's Mom? Where's God's Mom? That's who needs to step in and straighten this shit out. I am entirely sick of it. Is this the product of all of our thousands of years of advancement and science and industry? This is what we've created? This is the pinnacle of civilization? Come, come, nuclear bomb. We deserve annihilation.

 

[Worm]

Where's my soapbox? Where's Mom? Where's God's Mom? That's who needs to step in and straighten this shit out. I am entirely sick of it. Is this the product of all of our thousands of years of advancement and science and industry? This is what we've created? This is the pinnacle of civilization? Come, come, nuclear bomb. We deserve annihilation.

That's like saying you want to kill yourself because you caught a cold. Annihilation is not required here. There's a specific disease and a specific cure.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Sometimes it takes a massive shock, a huge threat or crisis, to spark change.

Yeah, you're right, I'm exaggerating. But the answers seem so simple, such clean common sense, and yet you hear no one in a position of power suggesting them. What am I supposed to do, start a blog, telling world powers how to get their affairs in order?

It's almost like they know we'll give up and retreat into tunnel vision out of confusion and frustration. Do I want to run for public office, in the hopes that I'll be able to effect change? Hell, no. There's too much politics involved!

What do you think is "the cure?"

 

[Worm]

Sometimes it takes a massive shock, a huge threat or crisis, to spark change.

Yes. A good name for it might be "shock doctrine"...oh wait.

What am I supposed to do, start a blog, telling world powers how to get their affairs in order?

A tiny but wonderful piece of satire: on "Aqua Teen Hunger Force" last night, Master Shake orders $536,000 worth of pizzas from a local chain, waits until the delivery trucks show up, and then attempts to seize the pizzas without paying by using a "coupon"-- the "five-finger discount", i.e. a punch to the driver's face. The ploy doesn't work. The driver and his guys load up the pizzas and leave. As they drive off, Shake wags his fist at the back of the truck, bellowing "You'll hear about this on my blog!"

A totally apolitical, pointless bit of comedy, but I think it exemplifies the impotent absurdity of blogs rather nicely: not merely the negligible impact of a blog post on pizza places, or any other topic, but also the way a ridiculous cartoon character-- in the form of a fast food beverage cup-- takes himself seriously enough to believe he has a say in what happens in the world.

I think Billy Corgan wrote a song about that very idea once, but it's not as fun as an amoral, selfish, egotistical, back-stabbing milkshake.

What do you think is "the cure?"

Those who tell, don't know. Those who know, don't tell. Not in a searchable forum, at any rate.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

A totally apolitical, pointless bit of comedy, but I think it exemplifies the impotent absurdity of blogs rather nicely.

They're like message t-shirts for people too cool for message t-shirts. E-bumper stickers.

Those who tell, don't know. Those who know, don't tell. Not in a searchable forum, at any rate.

So do you know, or not? It's not the Fight Club.

 

[Worm]

They're like message t-shirts for people too cool for message t-shirts. E-bumper stickers.

More than that. There's a revolutionary sort of insolence at work. You have to train your ear to catch it. Or smoke a lot of dope. One of the two.

So do you know, or not? It's not the Fight Club.

What does it mean to "know"? What is knowledge, anyway?

 

[Anaesthesine]

Oh Theo, you're always such a ray of sunshine. You are wasting your time on Solo - you should get a radio show somewhere.

For example, while you state that this Islamic mosque/community center thing (I'll just call it a mosque the rest of the way, because that's essentially what it is) is "not at Ground Zero", you don't even mention that it will replace a building that was damaged by the wreckage of the planes the Muslim hijackers slammed into the Twin Towers. Sorry, I have to raise an eyebrow over your omission of that fact. Even President Obama pointed out that this proposed mosque is to be built on "hallowed grounds".

Life continues in lower Manhattan, Theo. We go to clubs, eat in restaurants, raise our children, celebrate weddings, cry at funerals, sit in parks, all the things that we did before 9/11. It is not a graveyard, nor is it a battlefield. It is home.

Should some politicians take it upon themselves to designate it sacred ground, then that is a whole different story. Ground Zero itself may very well be designated as "untouchable," but the surrounding area is never, ever going to be emptied, rezoned and left vacant. It's just not going to happen.

As with all traumatized populations living in urban centers where great violence has occurred, it is a very important part of the healing process that life goes on.

You also fail to mention that a large majority of New Yorkers oppose the mosque. The poll I saw showed, I think, 2 out of every 3 New Yorkers opposing it. Yet you claim to speak for New York and try and Lord that over others. Furthermore, a number of survivors of 9/11, and family members of 9/11 victims, are amongst those opposing the mosque (apparently Nancy Pelosi intends to have them investigated!).

So, I'm not sure why you're trying to claim that, as a New Yorker, your opinion is the final word. This is a democracy and people can speak their minds. At the end of the day, they have a right to build the mosque. But others have a right to question their motives. I certainly question their motives, and I can't figure out why you don't. Do you really totally fail to comprehend why anyone would question the motives of the people behind this project? Do you also fail to understand that, in a democracy, people have a right to criticisize things even if the people doing those things have a right to do them?

Theo, you didn't read my post carefully enough - I addressed this. I'm not going to waste my time going over it again.

Also, the reason I don't usually talk to you is because you don't argue in good faith. I was asked my opinion, and I gave it. End of. I totally understand why some people would be sensitive to this - when it comes to politicians, however, I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They know exactly what they are doing.

Heh. That's like when Pauline Kael famously stated, "I don't know how Nixon won. No one I know voted for him." Somehow no one you know is amongst the two-thirds of New Yorkers who are upset about this? Boy, you keep yourself very walled off from folks who don't think exactly like you, don't ya?

No, I keep company with a lot of different types of people (it's an occupational hazard). Some of them even hold views I find abhorrent. Everyone I've discussed this issue with pretty much agrees that Cordoba House has a right to be there, and to prevent them from moving in would not be in keeping with freedom of religion or association.

In the interests of accuracy, I should state that no one I have spoken to has an issue with this. Perhaps there are people I know who are, in fact, upset about it, and haven't mentioned it.

Then again, I'm in the East Village.

BTW, Obama also stated that he will not comment on the wisdom behind the proposed mosque. As I've already stated, I thought it was pretty dumb for Obama to chime in on this matter at all. By doing so, he made it more of a national issue. That Obama himself spoke on the issue in a manner where he appeared to be taking both sides shows what a difficult issue it is. Not sure who's advising the President, but he certainly was as ill-advised to chime in on this one as he was when he chimed in on that matter where the belligerent professor, Gates, had an incident with a Massachussetts police officer. I don't wanna be too hard on Obama here, however. There's plenty to attack Obama on already, seeing as how he's the worst president in history. But, well, he kinda stepped in it here.....

I agree with the bold part of your statement - Obama was foolish to get involved.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

More than that. There's a revolutionary sort of insolence at work. You have to train your ear to catch it. Or smoke a lot of dope. One of the two.

No time. I have enough meaningless blather of my own. If I tried to keep up with all these random blogs I'd have no time to post to my own! Which no one reads. Not one follower, can you believe that? Not one.

What does it mean to "know"? What is knowledge, anyway?

All knowledge must acknowledge its limits. I know only that the things I know and understand are only a tiny fragment of what there is--but wonder at the compulsion to know more. Knowledge demands more knowledge.

Can I just call your bluff?