Nick Cave on Morrissey - new issue of the Red Hand Files

Nick Cave on Morrissey - The Red Hand Files - Issue #48

Excerpt:

Open debate and conversation are the very structure of civilisation, and in Nottingham it was a privilege to be challenged by this very thoughtful young man. However, even though I was unsatisfied by my own response, I still believe that despite how upsetting Morrissey’s views may be to the marginalised and dispossessed members of society, or anyone else for that matter, he still should have the freedom to express his views, just as others should have the freedom to challenge them – even if just to know in what guise their enemy may appear. The charge that defending a person’s right to their opinions somehow aligns one with their views makes no sense at all and strikes at the heart of the problem itself – that of conflating the concept of free speech with bigotry. This is very dangerous territory indeed.

...Perhaps it is better to simply let Morrissey have his views, challenge them when and wherever possible, but allow his music to live on, bearing in mind we are all conflicted individuals – messy, flawed and prone to lunacies. We should thank God that there are some among us that create works of beauty beyond anything most of us can barely imagine, even as some of those same people fall prey to regressive and dangerous belief systems.
 
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Comments

Sure, in the same way you don't have to agree on everything with the person you love. Eventually, if the disagreement is too unbeareable you walk away. But respecting the other person's point of view is the minimum respect all human beings deserve as thinking beings. Respect also involves not insulting nor belittling that person for his/her opinions.
Yep thats pretty much my whole point. That’s all everyone seems to do here. At some point, if the level of discomfort you have for someone’s views overrides your ability to tolerate them as a person (or in this case also tolerate/enjoy their music) then surely the best thing to do is to walk away? People being critical of what he says is fine unto itself but I get the feeling it’s the only reason why a lot of people are here. You have posts made that are about the music or the tour and people just drag it back, every thread, to the same old thing. It makes it hard to respect or appreciate their points because I don’t really believe they even care that much about the points they’re making. They just want to rant and rave and sound tough on the internet and annoy people. Not to mention the ones who are clearly doing it based on old grudges from this websites history.

I feel like there’s a real difference between those who are probably genuinely heartbroken over Morrissey’s statements. And those who absolutely are revelling in it. no doubt there are people here who LOVE when Morrissey says something right of centre. And its not because they love what he is saying. Those are the people I don’t have a lot respect for their views because I think they’re empty and meaningless. In their own way they undermine their supposed argument by not caring about the issues themselves but just using them as a way to trash talk Morrissey.
 
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Stormzy owning Glastonbury at the moment. Excellent headlining show.

The sound of modern Britain
Yep. You said it. Wearing a stab-proof vest. The sound of modern Britain indeed. The white middle class Guardian readers in the crowd must have felt so dangerous - like when they drive through Tottenham in daddy's Porsch. Welcome to your brave new world...
 
I don't think it's been mentioned here, but Nick Cave and Johnny Marr share a manager. What if, unlike Morrissey's manager, who poured gasoline on a dumpster fire, Johnny's manager is seeking to mitigate the damage done? If so, smart move. Nick Cave writes eloquently about the art and does not defend what Morrissey has said.
 
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All this business about me not getting on with people of other races is ludicrous. I accept it because its the world I live in. Am I going to go in a bar and decline a drink because it doesn't cater to my 'own kind'? No. All I'm saying is for people, especially politicians, to stop telling me to love everybody unconditionally. Not going to happen. I'm two faced. I mix with everybody on a superficial level. I don't have to love them and I don't have to like them.
You have claustrophobia issues and you feel you mix with people superficially. I think you may need to go talk to someone professional because you have signs of mental health issues and I hope you find some help.
 
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I guess until you've not had the experience of being poor at any given time, and how your very existence depends on needing to be left alone to do your own thing, you'll never 'get it'.
you do come out with Wierd statements. Shyness doesn’t relate to poverty. Wanting to be alone isn’t related to shyness. It isn’t what shyness is. And how do you know anything about whether I have been poor or not? I can assure you I know exactly what that is like but has nothing to do with shyness and a shy person doesn’t broadcast to the world.
 
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No I don’t think i missed the point. My point is there are people here who don’t even like the music. They’re just here purely to shit on Morrissey and his views over and over and that’s it. And the music doesn’t even matter. Nick very much says the music should matter. If you don’t like the music and you don’t like the man then what’s the point?

There is some research that suggests people are slightly biased towards their own race on an instinctual level. Not sure that goes as far as “prefer”. But it’s not entirely inaccurate. I said I don’t really agree with most of what he said but it honestly isn’t that bad. People are taking what he says and blow it up. Is he saying he thinks the concentration camps on America’s southern border are a good thing? People just will not let this point go. He could probably be considered left wing on most other things - women’s rights, LGBTQI support, animal rights etc. He differs a bit on his stance of border protection and people lose their shit and he’s literally called Hitleresque things here at times. If people can’t tolerate anyone whose views differ from their own in any way then god help you living and adjusting to the outside world where you have no control over that stuff.
I agree people bringing up hitler are being stupid but you are doing the opposite and belittling what he is saying. I don’t have any kind of bias to my own race and actually prefer the Cultures of other races to my own but everyone is different. To state that everyone prefers their own race is the very definition of racism. It is a dictionary definition. Also telling people to vote for a racist party that consists of ex BNP members and holocaust deniers whose only agenda is an anti Islam agenda is horrific. If you can’t see that then there is no hope. Nick Cave describes his views as oppressive and dangerous.
 
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Morrissey and Nick are actually both very similar in the devotion and loyalty that their audiences display. I’ve seen Morrissey plenty of times, and I have seen the Bad Seeds quite a bit too, and they both have that natural command over the crowd at their live performances. Both really rely on their audiences and and vice versa, and it’s a similar sense of rapture and adulation that is present in their live performances. There’s very few performers that can naturally create that kind of fervour.
 
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No. You equated racist hate speech and paedophilia apologists to speech advocating gay rights and trans rights. You really don't get what you did there, do you, you goose stepping fascist thug.
You know you’re talking to the resident Nazi, right? Like, an actual one. I doubt you’re going to get much of a logical debate with it.
 
That’s not how freedom of speech works! Yes, you can say whatever you like. But if a person or entity has an issue with it, they are entitled to respond to it.

Problem is, this is where Morrissey usually breaks down. As opposed to coming back with an intelligent response to legitimately debate the issue or to defend his position, he turns into a 14 year old and cries “everyone is against me!” as he slams his bedroom door.
To be hounded by the Guardian is not being civil and responding to someone’s opinions.

Morrissey is not one to explain himself to anyone really. Some may look at this as a character flaw. So be it.
 
"I still believe that despite how upsetting Morrissey’s views may be to the marginalised and dispossessed members of society, or anyone else for that matter, he still should have the freedom to express his views"

Morrissey
is speaking for the marginalized, specifically the English and western values and culture. Nick is not a great artist and his comment was back handed . All these boomer rockers are burnt
 
Yep thats pretty much my whole point. That’s all everyone seems to do here. At some point, if the level of discomfort you have for someone’s views overrides your ability to tolerate them as a person (or in this case also tolerate/enjoy their music) then surely the best thing to do is to walk away? People being critical of what he says is fine unto itself but I get the feeling it’s the only reason why a lot of people are here. You have posts made that are about the music or the tour and people just drag it back, every thread, to the same old thing. It makes it hard to respect or appreciate their points because I don’t really believe they even care that much about the points they’re making. They just want to rant and rave and sound tough on the internet and annoy people. Not to mention the ones who are clearly doing it based on old grudges from this websites history.

I feel like there’s a real difference between those who are probably genuinely heartbroken over Morrissey’s statements. And those who absolutely are revelling in it. no doubt there are people here who LOVE when Morrissey says something right of centre. And its not because they love what he is saying. Those are the people I don’t have a lot respect for their views because I think they’re empty and meaningless. In their own way they undermine their supposed argument by not caring about the issues themselves but just using them as a way to trash talk Morrissey.
:thumb:
 
I agree people bringing up hitler are being stupid but you are doing the opposite and belittling what he is saying. I don’t have any kind of bias to my own race and actually prefer the Cultures of other races to my own but everyone is different. To state that everyone prefers their own race is the very definition of racism. It is a dictionary definition. Also telling people to vote for a racist party that consists of ex BNP members and holocaust deniers whose only agenda is an anti Islam agenda is horrific. If you can’t see that then there is no hope. Nick Cave describes his views as oppressive and dangerous.
I don’t have any kind of bias to my own race and actually prefer the Cultures of other races to my own but everyone is different.’

Yes.. everyone is different. Some prefer some don’t. Nothing wrong with diversity of choice.

To state that everyone prefers their own race is the very definition of racism. It is a dictionary definition.


That’s funny. I googled ‘racism definition’ and this is the first thing to come up..



rac·ism
/ˈrāˌsizəm/

noun
  1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.’



If Morrissey made the statement that everyone prefers their own race because they believe that their race is superior to another race can then be defined as racism from those making that choice based on that belief.

Morrissey’s statement was not racist, though it was quite a generalization. The fact is that most people may prefer to be with their own race because of their upbringing, it is familiarity with what one knows, it’s conditioning, not saying that’s entirely good. But does that preference make someone racist? Not usually the case.
 
No I don’t think i missed the point. My point is there are people here who don’t even like the music. They’re just here purely to shit on Morrissey and his views over and over and that’s it. And the music doesn’t even matter. Nick very much says the music should matter. If you don’t like the music and you don’t like the man then what’s the point?

There is some research that suggests people are slightly biased towards their own race on an instinctual level. Not sure that goes as far as “prefer”. But it’s not entirely inaccurate. I said I don’t really agree with most of what he said but it honestly isn’t that bad. People are taking what he says and blow it up. Is he saying he thinks the concentration camps on America’s southern border are a good thing? People just will not let this point go. He could probably be considered left wing on most other things - women’s rights, LGBTQI support, animal rights etc. He differs a bit on his stance of border protection and people lose their shit and he’s literally called Hitleresque things here at times. If people can’t tolerate anyone whose views differ from their own in any way then god help you living and adjusting to the outside world where you have no control over that stuff.
Have you missed the new fans who have joined in the past few months who are pointing out all the great things Hitler did? These are the people he is appealing to with his comments.
I think some people should leave because we still like the music but don't really like him as a person. And the music for the past three records, being generous, would not have made me a fan.
But we're still here out of habit. Don't worry. The numbers seem to be dwindling.
 
Have you missed the new fans who have joined in the past few months who are pointing out all the great things Hitler did? These are the people he is appealing to with his comments.
I think some people should leave because we still like the music but don't really like him as a person. And the music for the past three records, being generous, would not have made me a fan.
But we're still here out of habit. Don't worry. The numbers seem to be dwindling.
People like that are obviously trolling. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if they're also some of the same people calling him a nazi by joining and nazi praising to try and prove a point. This place is full of trolls. The other thing is whether he appeals to these people or not doesn't necessarily speak to his intentions. Take Rammstein for an example. A pretty politically left leaning German band who still to this day have morons nazi saluting at their shows who don't understand their intentions. Just because nazi's find them appealing doesn't mean they are appealing to nazis. Dont fall into the same trap by assuming Morrissey wants to appeal to those people.
 
People like that are obviously trolling. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if they're also some of the same people calling him a nazi by joining and nazi praising to try and prove a point. This place is full of trolls. The other thing is whether he appeals to these people or not doesn't necessarily speak to his intentions. Take Rammstein for an example. A pretty politically left leaning German band who still to this day have morons nazi saluting at their shows who don't understand their intentions. Just because nazi's find them appealing doesn't mean they are appealing to nazis. Dont fall into the same trap by assuming Morrissey wants to appeal to those people.
You believe that people that have a problem with Morrissey's views just want to have a rant and don't care. You believe that people that literally promote Nazi ideology are just trying to prove a point.
It seems that you're ignoring or intentionally misconceiving of things that don't fit your program.
I agree to a point that he can't control who is listening to him, if they even listen to the records. They never write about the music, just about something he has said. But it's not an exaggeration to say that whatever his intentions are and whatever he thinks of the far right he is now getting people promoting far right ideology and propaganda daily.

I used to go to 4chan years ago and I thought that a lot of people there weren't serious, that it was all a put on, written ironically, when they would write about Jews and n*****s but that site evolved into a place where right wing extremism is pretty widespread. I guess a lot of those people weren't joking. If you think the people here talking about how Hitler wanted to "cleanse" Germany because of the problems created by Jews are just trolling I really disagree. To daily write about the "destruction of the white race" and post another few examples of crimes committed by blacks is pretty dedicated for trolling.

And Morrissey is saying nothing about this. If it keeps going they will be the only fans he has so maybe he's afraid to mention it. I just wonder what's going to happen when they actually hear the lyrics.
 
You believe that people that have a problem with Morrissey's views just want to have a rant and don't care. You believe that people that literally promote Nazi ideology are just trying to prove a point.
It seems that you're ignoring or intentionally misconceiving of things that don't fit your program.
I agree to a point that he can't control who is listening to him, if they even listen to the records. They never write about the music, just about something he has said. But it's not an exaggeration to say that whatever his intentions are and whatever he thinks of the far right he is now getting people promoting far right ideology and propaganda daily.

I used to go to 4chan years ago and I thought that a lot of people there weren't serious, that it was all a put on, written ironically, when they would write about Jews and n*****s but that site evolved into a place where right wing extremism is pretty widespread. I guess a lot of those people weren't joking. If you think the people here talking about how Hitler wanted to "cleanse" Germany because of the problems created by Jews are just trolling I really disagree. To daily write about the "destruction of the white race" and post another few examples of crimes committed by blacks is pretty dedicated for trolling.

And Morrissey is saying nothing about this. If it keeps going they will be the only fans he has so maybe he's afraid to mention it. I just wonder what's going to happen when they actually hear the lyrics.
I believe that some of them do, at least a great deal here. The average person you might see post on twitter or facebook who read's Morrissey's views and doesn't like them I believe are probably pretty legit feeling that way. Although I'd hope some of them would read his actual words from the source rather than an article giving their spin on it. Those people I think are generally pretty much honestly expressing their feelings. On Morrissey-solo though, its a different story. And yeah, I honestly wouldn't put it past some of them doing that to prove a point knowing this place.

Im not saying every single person is one way, or every single person is another. What should Morrissey say about it? Does the man have to literally spell out he isn't a nazi? The stretch to believe that is pretty bloody big. The man has some right of centre views on border protection/control. He has left of centre views on other things. He's just an old babyboomer with a mix of political and social views. People jumping up and down about nazism are being completely ridiculous if they're using it to criticise him, and those who legitimately use nazism as a way of praising him are so deluded in their own views they are hearing what they want to hear from him. In the end, he's just a dude with some pretty tame views that slide to either side of the political/social spectrum on different things.
 
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To be hounded by the Guardian is not being civil and responding to someone’s opinions.

Morrissey is not one to explain himself to anyone really. Some may look at this as a character flaw. So be it.
It is what media do on all sides. If he doesn’t want to be criticised or hounded or whatever you want to call it then he shouldn’t tell people how to vote and vote for a far right party that invites Swedish holocaust deniers to its party conferences.

Do you really think for one minute any newspaper is going to ignore such statements and views?

It who cares about newspapers. Not many. His issues aren’t because of media. They are self induced through his own words on his own website or stage.

I doubt many ex fans follow anything the guardian says but they are bothered by his own words not the words in any newspaper.

He can’t continue to blame a specific newspaper for the reactions to his own views and beliefs.

I doubt many of his troubled fans even read that paper.
 
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I don’t have any kind of bias to my own race and actually prefer the Cultures of other races to my own but everyone is different.’

Yes.. everyone is different. Some prefer some don’t. Nothing wrong with diversity of choice.

To state that everyone prefers their own race is the very definition of racism. It is a dictionary definition.


That’s funny. I googled ‘racism definition’ and this is the first thing to come up..



rac·ism
/ˈrāˌsizəm/

noun
  1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.’



If Morrissey made the statement that everyone prefers their own race because they believe that their race is superior to another race can then be defined as racism from those making that choice based on that belief.

Morrissey’s statement was not racist, though it was quite a generalization. The fact is that most people may prefer to be with their own race because of their upbringing, it is familiarity with what one knows, it’s conditioning, not saying that’s entirely good. But does that preference make someone racist? Not usually the case.
You too are saying “most people”. Where does that come from. I don’t think like that and I don’t know anyone who does. What about all the people who marry interracially? It’s a stupid argument and yes it is racist to prefer people based on their race.

You didn’t comment on my point re asking people to vote for a far right party which invites holocaust deniers to speak at its conference. Any view on that?
 
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I'm painfully shy until I have a drink in me. I don't have to attend meetings at work. It all stems from years of, not exactly, bullying, but being made fun of at school for being gay. Shyness has had a direct affect on my income. It's stopped me aiming for promotion and reaching my full potential. I bet a lot of people on benefits are really quite shy. If you've had a private schooling confidence is drilled into you.
I am gay and was also bullied at school and by my family. And I come from a poor working class background. Get some help. You have that ability. You are in control.
 

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