Mozfans: Your favorite Black (Ok, African-American) musician(s)?

[Patrick McCann]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

> uh al jolson was white. he was famous for performing in blackface, which
> may be why you're confused. he was a lithuanian jew for heaven's sake.

> http://us.imdb.com/Name?Jolson,+Al
> http://www.dinesp.fsnet.co.uk/jolson.htm does this look like a brother to
> you?

That's a different guy. The one I know was definitely black. He sang a song that went,
Mammee, maaaaaaammeeeee, I'd walk a million miles for one of your smiles,
my maaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Brilliant stuff.

 

[Mindy]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

was it in a movie called "mammy" right?

http://www.letssingit.com/?http://www.letssingit.com/al-jolson-my-mammy-dfgp427.html

those are the lyrics to the song "to my mammy" from the movie "mammy" which starred al jolson in blackface. i think you'll notice they're the same as the ones you posted.

 

[CrushingBore]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

> was it in a movie called "mammy" right?

>
> http://www.letssingit.com/?http://www.letssingit.com/al-jolson-my-mammy-dfgp427.html
> those are the lyrics to the song "to my mammy" from the movie
> "mammy" which starred al jolson in blackface. i think you'll
> notice they're the same as the ones you posted.

Mindy, LOL. For god's sake, Al Jolson was as white as the driven snow and as offensive as Henry Rollins' BO - has anyone here EVER met a brother called Al?

"Look who bought the myth ..."

 

[Mindy]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

well, in all fairness, it's considered offensive now. but back then, minstrel shows were a very popular on vaudeville. hence al believed black performers were more fully embraced by audiences (got bigger laughs, etc.) and he started performing in black face. now, no one would dream of doing that, but it was a different time.

it's kind of like how "birth of a nation" is considered such an evil, racist film now, when back then, it wasn't. i mean, even now, GWTW is considered racist -- and all but one black person in that is presented in a positive light. (that would be prissy -- who is really annoying, but it's more because she's a little kid than black. there is a black guy who tries to hurt scarlett, but he's accompanied by a white guy, so it's not necessarily a comment on blacks.)

 

[david]

brothers called Al

"has anyone here EVER met a brother called Al?"

I have. My friend Steve has a brother called Al.

 

[CrushingBore]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

That's all true - but the fact remains that for Jolson "blackness" was wholly encapsulated by the colour of one's skin. The logic being you simply apply shoe polish, and "hey presto - instant n*****!" - then you're automatically seen as "simple", "humourous", "subserviant", "alien", etc (the immediate response to all of these modes is laughter, that most rudimetary and debased of human emotions).

From where I sit, it's sickening by any standard, on the same level as animated golliwogs and 'Little Black Sambo', and you can't help but condemn Jolson, because on every level he was clearly aware of what he was doing.

 

[Mindy]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

> That's all true - but the fact remains that for Jolson
> "blackness" was wholly encapsulated by the colour of one's skin.
> The logic being you simply apply shoe polish, and "hey presto -
> instant n*****!" - then you're automatically seen as
> "simple", "humourous", "subserviant",
> "alien", etc (the immediate response to all of these modes is
> laughter, that most rudimetary and debased of human emotions).

> From where I sit, it's sickening by any standard, on the same level as
> animated golliwogs and 'Little Black Sambo', and you can't help but
> condemn Jolson, because on every level he was clearly aware of what he was
> doing.

i still refuse to condemn him because it was another time and place, and it wasn't considered evil at the time. at worst, it was considered patronizing.

(i should mention that i am the most politically incorrect liberal on the planet. i'm not racist. i'm just not as easily offended as a lot of people. and i'm not as often offended for other people either. maybe that's wrong, but it's a reaction to how overly politically correct society has gotten. people need to grow up and learn that part of life is offending and being offended.)

oh, and what about al sharpton?!

 

[CrushingBore]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

> i still refuse to condemn him because it was another time and place, and
> it wasn't considered evil at the time. at worst, it was considered
> patronizing.

Well, we're the product of the society we're raised in, and that's where the condemnation ought to be directed. So perhaps Mr Jolson cannot be blamed, per se, but perhaps what Hitler was doing wasn't considered evil at the time, either. I think we oughtn't to be afraid to judge others by our own contemporary standards, to refuse to do so is in many ways to be complicit with those outdated standards.

> (i should mention that i am the most politically incorrect liberal on the
> planet. i'm not racist. i'm just not as easily offended as a lot of
> people. and i'm not as often offended for other people either. maybe
> that's wrong, but it's a reaction to how overly politically correct
> society has gotten. people need to grow up and learn that part of life is
> offending and being offended.)

Agree with you wholeheartedly. I regularly get great mileage out of being as deliberately un-PC as I possibly can, but that's in the context of people knowing my true beliefs. It's ironic, and the problem with irony is that it's often much to subtle for unsophisticated political schemas (and sadly the political left is often home to the least-sophisticated, most-reactionary politics on the face of the planet). Jolson was not being in any way ironic or sophisticated (or at least I find no evidence of this). He was being simplistic and culturally backward in the interest of making a rapid buck.

> oh, and what about al sharpton?!

Cultural relativism never got anyone anywhere.

 

[Mindy]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

> Well, we're the product of the society we're raised in, and that's where
> the condemnation ought to be directed. So perhaps Mr Jolson cannot be
> blamed, per se, but perhaps what Hitler was doing wasn't considered evil
> at the time, either. I think we oughtn't to be afraid to judge others by
> our own contemporary standards, to refuse to do so is in many ways to be
> complicit with those outdated standards.

well i concede on that point. i mean, obviously, what al jolson did would NEVER fly today and rightly so. i think it's good though to look back on it to see how different things were and how much they've changed for the better. it's a fascinating and heartbreaking epoch in our history and one worthy of being revisited for the lessons that can be learned.

> Agree with you wholeheartedly. I regularly get great mileage out of being
> as deliberately un-PC as I possibly can, but that's in the context of
> people knowing my true beliefs. It's ironic, and the problem with irony is
> that it's often much to subtle for unsophisticated political schemas (and
> sadly the political left is often home to the least-sophisticated,
> most-reactionary politics on the face of the planet). Jolson was not being
> in any way ironic or sophisticated (or at least I find no evidence of
> this). He was being simplistic and culturally backward in the interest of
> making a rapid buck.

well, sometimes my beliefs are genuinely un-PC, but most of the time, i am being ironic. there are just certain things we're expected to be PC about that i just disagree with. i can't think of any off of the top of my head, but well, i'm a little dizzy in the morning,

> Cultural relativism never got anyone anywhere.

i meant he was a brother and he's black.

 

[Patrick McCann]

Re: brothers called Al

This debate is all very well, but the Al Jolson I'm talking about was black. I saw him on the telly loads of times. Besides, why would he pretend to be black? Was there discrimination against whites in the marketplace?
Was it really that difficult for whites to get work? I don't think so.
I still reckon you're all thinking of Ally Johnson who used to play for Brechin City. He was white. Still is probably.It's an easy mistake to make.

The sun shines east
the sun shines west
but we all know
where the sunshine's best

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
My heart.........um, I forget the rest

 

[david]

Re: brothers called Al

"I still reckon you're all thinking of Ally Johnson who used to play for Brechin City. He was white. Still is probably.It's an easy mistake to make"

Superb. are you a Brechin City fan?

 

[Mindy]

Re: brothers called Al

patrick, this is getting really old and stupid. look it up on the internet. there was only one al jolson and he was a white man who performed mainly in blackface. believe me. i used to be really into old movies and old hollywood (my greatgrandfather was a famous character actor who you may have seen in movies ranging from kubrick's "paths of glory" to disney's "pollyanna"). anyway, he did it because during the days of vaudeville in the 1910s and 20s, black minstrel performers were really popular -- and so were white performers in blackface (i.e. eddie cantor). this was the jazz age, remember, which culminated in the harlem renaissance -- a flowering of black music, art, and literature. anyway, al jolson is one of many performers who chose to perform in blackface, mainly because he thought he'd get more laughs. he could act "goofier," etc.

the movie you are talking about is "mammy." i proved it by finding the lyrics. and al jolson, A WHITE MAN, was the star who sang that song. END OF STORY.

 

[Benton]

Re: brothers called Al

I'm surprised that no mention has been made of the Sonny Boy quotation in "The Hand That Rocks the Cradle".

Consulting "Goddard", I can confirm that this is from an Al Jolson song.

Unfortunately, the book does not make clear Jolson's colour, nor mention Brechin City, so it looks like the jury is still out on that one.

 

[Mindy]

Re: brothers called Al

i posted several links to webpages about al jolson. he was white. blanco. blanc. argh!

here is a link to his filmography and some biographical information (how many lithuanian jews do you know who are black? plus, in the picture, you can see he's white): http://us.imdb.com/Name?Jolson,+Al

the filmography proves that this al jolson is the al jolson that patrick has in mind (he's the one and only) and that he was white.

don't make me post more links showing more pictures of whitey.

 

[CrushingBore]

Re: brothers called Al

No, mate - Mindy is 100% correct. The songs you are quoting were all sung by Al Jolson in blackface. There is not, and has never been another prominent entertainer I'm aware of called Al Jolson - certianly the one who sang the songs you mentioned was WHITE. It's one of those interesting sociological phenomenon that many of the earliest popular "black" cinematic roles were played by a white man. I can't fully explain it - but clearly its a racism of sorts. The same thing happened with the portayal of aborigines in early Australian cinema.
There really is no argument here - Al Jolson was white.

 

[CrushingBore]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

> i meant he was a brother and he's black.

Sorry, misunderstood that one - brainless nong that I am. Apologies.

 

[Mindy]

Re: al jolson is white, dude

it's okay.

in another post, for which i was rightly reprimanded, i completely ignored the fact that someone said we used nukes in vietnam. lmao. was i high?

 

[Patrick McCann]

Re: brothers called Al

Mindy and Crushing Bore - I'm sorry, but I was joking. I didn't think anyone would bite. Sorry about that.
I created a monster that got out of control.

Now I know how Dr. Frankenstein felt (as the flames rose ....etc.)

 

[Patrick McCann]

Re: brothers called Al

> Superb. are you a Brechin City fan?

Being a football connoisseur, I have no choice.

 

[Benton]

Re: brothers called Al

That's a shame - I was looking forward to the next instalment. Do you think there's any mileage in Nick Berry?

Perhaps not