Question Moz & God

[Raphael Lambach]

I always thought Moz was agnostic or something like that. But since some years ago, he's wearing crosses and, I guess, never spoke against religion even in a satiric way as "Satan rejected my soul"...

What do you think about it, guys?

 

[Amy]

Yes, it's a deliciously wry and blasphemous take on the Almighty and his son in both Dear God Please Help Me and I Have Forgiven Jesus. This is not a devout person, and if he's a believer, it's in a vague "there must be something out there and even though it seems indifferent, maybe it occasionally cares for us in its own inscrutable way." I think one of his saddest and bleakest lines is in Asleep: "there is another world | there is a better world | well, there must be."

God, come down
IF you're really there
Well you're the one who claims to care...

 

[Lucifer Sam]

God, come down
IF you're really there
Well you're the one who claims to care...

Yes, the singer seems to think there's an off chance a caring God exists—but later on he's pretty certain it's not the God of revelation, since "good Christians" are into slaughtering lambs. Which is bleak, but for me Asleep is more haunting, because it suggests not so much that there's a heavenly afterlife, but that the sleep of death, a nothingness, is a "better world" than this one.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

My theory is that he was raised catholic, experienced the worst of Catholicism in school growing up, rebelled against it in the years (decades) that followed, and has now started to relapse, so to speak. The man who pleaded to the world to pray for his dying mother, signed that plea using his confirmation name, and is rarely seen without a crucifix around his neck is not entirely the same person who wrote Yes I Am Blind, DGPHM and IHFJ decades ago.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

My theory is that he was raised catholic, experienced the worst of Catholicism in school growing up, rebelled against it in the years (decades) that followed, and has now started to relapse, so to speak. The man who pleaded to the world to pray for his dying mother, signed that plea using his confirmation name, and is rarely seen without a crucifix around his neck is not entirely the same person who wrote Yes I Am Blind, DGPHM and IHFJ decades ago.

He asked people to pray to their gods, plural, which is rather a pagan thing to ask. Rarely being seen without a crucifix is not uncommon among people from places with a rich folk Catholicism tradition like Ireland and Latin America. Morrissey's roots are in the one and he has a strong affinity for the other. It's probably an accessory, like a rosary or a Celtic cross or Our Lady of Guadalupe candles. It wouldn't surprise me if he's a cultural Catholic, but that doesn't tell us his skepticism has changed. I'll assume he's a practicing Catholic if someone spots him at Mass.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Yes I Am Blind, DGPHM and IHFJ [were] decades ago.

What about Israel from as recently as Low In High School? It's pretty Nietzschean in tone, and it takes aim at the Catholic doctrines of original sin ("you were born as guilty sinners") and sacerdotal authority ("who are virgin priests to tell?") and mortification against the flesh ("realize if you're happy | Jesus sends you straight to hell" and "should you dare enjoy your body | here tolls Hades' welcome bell").

 

[Gregor Samsa]

He asked people to pray to their gods, plural, which is rather a pagan thing to ask. Rarely being seen without a crucifix is not uncommon among people from places with a rich folk Catholicism tradition like Ireland and Latin America. Morrissey's roots are in the one and he has a strong affinity for the other. It's probably an accessory, like a rosary or a Celtic cross or Our Lady of Guadalupe candles. It wouldn't surprise me if he's a cultural Catholic, but that doesn't tell us his skepticism has changed. I'll assume he's a practicing Catholic if someone spots him at Mass.

He may have asked people to pray to their gods, but wasn’t it obvious who his god was? And I’m not saying he’s a full-blown devout Christian, but to me it’s obvious he’s far from an atheist or the same person when it comes to faith as he was in, say, 1989.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

He may have asked people to pray to their gods, but wasn’t it obvious who his god was?

In that particular post? No. The only mention of a god there is "our collective pleas of petition might wake the sleeping gods." That's a very pagan thing to say, because the gods of antiquity were said to be asleep if they weren't helping you. That's how Elijah mocks the priests of Ba'al in 1 Kings 18: "call louder, for he is a god; he may be busy doing his business, or may be on a journey. Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

 

[Gregor Samsa]

In that particular post? No. The only mention of a god there is "our collective pleas of petition might wake the sleeping gods." That's a very pagan thing to say, because the gods of antiquity were said to be asleep if they weren't helping you. That's how Elijah mocks the priests of Ba'al in 1 Kings 18: "call louder, for he is a god; he may be busy doing his business, or may be on a journey. Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

Yes, but still he reached out especially to people in catholic countries and he signed the statement using his confirmation name. And a staunch atheist wouldn’t have asked for prayers in the first place.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Yes, but still he reached out especially to people in catholic countries and he signed the statement using his confirmation name. And a staunch atheist wouldn’t have asked for prayers in the first place.

I doubt he's a staunch atheist. If I had to guess, I'd say he's agnostic. But I definitely wouldn't peg his religious beliefs based on something he wrote in the grip of the unthinkable emotions a person must feel when their mother is deathly ill. That's a desperate situation where you're apt to reach out for anyone or anything. As the saying goes, "there are no atheists in foxholes" (unless, to paraphrase Morrissey, you are Christopher Hitchens).

 

[Gregor Samsa]

In that particular post? No. The only mention of a god there is "our collective pleas of petition might wake the sleeping gods." That's a very pagan thing to say, because the gods of antiquity were said to be asleep if they weren't helping you. That's how Elijah mocks the priests of Ba'al in 1 Kings 18: "call louder, for he is a god; he may be busy doing his business, or may be on a journey. Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

This reminds me of the discussion regarding Moz’ sexuality. Some of the straights want him to be straight. Some of the non-believers want him to be a non-believer as well. As a straight man who he himself has finally started to slowly understand and accept that he’s probably a Christian (a Christian filled with doubt, I must add), I understand Moz to be a humasexual, struggling catholic.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

This reminds me of the discussion regarding Moz’ sexuality. Some of the straights want him to be straight. Some of the non-believers want him to be a non-believer as well. As a straight man who he himself has finally started to slowly understand and accept that he’s probably a Christian (a Christian filled with doubt, I must add), I understand Moz to be a humasexual, struggling catholic.

Yes, I think that's the case for so many of these discussions: we often want to project our ideal Morrissey onto Morrissey. "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." That said, I can't believe there are people who, "impossible to fathom," don't think there's anything gay about Morrissey when so much of his early aesthetic was camp & swish; do these goons have no gaydar whatsoever? And even when I was a believing Catholic, I had to lament that Morrissey seemed a confirmed skeptic and, as far as I could tell, a cheeky blasphemer. Those were the years when I listened to his music the least (fortunately for my then-piety, he didn't release much for seven of them). But you're right, everyone will go with these things differently.

 

[Crisstti]

He asked people to pray to their gods, plural, which is rather a pagan thing to ask. Rarely being seen without a crucifix is not uncommon among people from places with a rich folk Catholicism tradition like Ireland and Latin America. Morrissey's roots are in the one and he has a strong affinity for the other. It's probably an accessory, like a rosary or a Celtic cross or Our Lady of Guadalupe candles. It wouldn't surprise me if he's a cultural Catholic, but that doesn't tell us his skepticism has changed. I'll assume he's a practicing Catholic if someone spots him at Mass.

There’s a pretty big (gray) area between an agnostic and a practicing, church going, Catholic. He’s somewhere in there.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

He may have asked people to pray to their gods, but wasn’t it obvious who his god was? And I’m not saying he’s a full-blown devout Christian, but to me it’s obvious he’s far from an atheist or the same person when it comes to faith as he was in, say, 1989.

Yes I think we could see what god he leans towards. But a bit odd ( though kind) to acknowledge that there are other gods, gods with the same power as his one god. I don’t think Morrissey was ever an atheist though, nor, as far as we know, a regular church goer. But that could eventually change, and if he or anyone finds comfort there? then, that’s all that matters.

 

[Amy]

He may have asked people to pray to their gods, but wasn’t it obvious who his god was? And I’m not saying he’s a full-blown devout Christian, but to me it’s obvious he’s far from an atheist or the same person when it comes to faith as he was in, say, 1989.

Everyone becomes more of aware of their mortality with age, especially when you lose a parent or close friends. And Moz isn't just aware of mortality, he's obsessed with it. Wondering what's beyond and looking for comfort... I think that's very understandable.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Everyone becomes more of aware of their mortality with age, especially when you lose a parent or close friends.

And Moz isn't just aware of mortality, he's obsessed with it. Wondering what's beyond and looking for comfort... I think that's very understandable.

Comfort and conflict. As an artist, the questioning is grist for the mill.

 

[Crisstti]

He asked people to pray to their gods, plural, which is rather a pagan thing to ask. Rarely being seen without a crucifix is not uncommon among people from places with a rich folk Catholicism tradition like Ireland and Latin America. Morrissey's roots are in the one and he has a strong affinity for the other. It's probably an accessory, like a rosary or a Celtic cross or Our Lady of Guadalupe candles. It wouldn't surprise me if he's a cultural Catholic, but that doesn't tell us his skepticism has changed. I'll assume he's a practicing Catholic if someone spots him at Mass.

I have to say I disagree with this. I don't think people wear a cross as a simple accessory. At least, I don't think people who are atheist or agnostic do. And, just as some anecdotal evidence, I wore a cross in a meeting with a friend a while back and she immediately asked if I was a Christian/Catholic. And while I'm not a church going Catholic, I am a "theist" is you want, and I don't think I would wear a cross if I wasn't.
Moz wearing crosses has also coincided with an increasing presence of religious themes in his lyrics.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

I have to say I disagree with this. I don't think people wear a cross as a simple accessory. At least, I don't think people who are atheist or agnostic do. And, just as some anecdotal evidence, I wore a cross in a meeting with a friend a while back and she immediately asked if I was a Christian/Catholic. And while I'm not a church going Catholic, I am a "theist" is you want, and I don't think I would wear a cross if I wasn't.
Moz wearing crosses has also coincided with an increasing presence of religious themes in his lyrics.

I don't think an atheist or agnostic would be likely to wear a cross—unless it was just to be sly and ironic. But plenty of non-practicing "cultural Catholics" do. I would put Morrissey somewhere in the space between ironic agnostic and cultural Catholic (or both). What songs do you think represent "an increasing presence of religious themes in his lyrics"? I can only think of Israel and Saint in a Stained Glass Window, both of which I love, but neither of which seems particularly spiritual or devotional.

 

[Crisstti]

I don't think an atheist or agnostic would be likely to wear a cross—unless it was just to be sly and ironic. But plenty of non-practicing "cultural Catholics" do. I would put Morrissey somewhere in the space between ironic agnostic and cultural Catholic (or both). What songs do you think represent "an increasing presence of religious themes in his lyrics"? I can only think of Israel and Saint in a Stained Glass Window, both of which I love, but neither of which seems particularly spiritual or devotional.

A cultural catholic would still believe in God, no?

I really do not think a cross is a very common accessory nowadays.

What about the songs mentioned here before, I Have Forgiven Jesus and Dear God Please Help Me? I think they seem to come from a person who has spiritual beliefs, even if the lyrics are obviously somewhat subversive (especially in the case of I Have Forgiven Jesus)

 

[Lucifer Sam]

A cultural catholic would still believe in God, no?

Possibly but not necessarily. Morrissey described being a cultural Catholic as "you may well become atheist" but you'll still beg for God's mercy on your deathbed, because the old superstitions were drilled into you as a child.

I really do not think a cross is a very common accessory nowadays.

I guess it depends on where you live. This is just speculation, but I imagine part of his wearing the crucifix might be similar to his wearing of "bling." He seems to like the accoutrements of macho and criminal subcultures.

What about the songs mentioned here before, I Have Forgiven Jesus and Dear God Please Help Me? I think they seem to come from a person who has spiritual beliefs, even if the lyrics are obviously somewhat subversive (especially in the case of I Have Forgiven Jesus)

That's just it. I don't think a spiritual person would write lyrics mocking orthodox beliefs about God and Jesus.

 

[Crisstti]

Possibly but not necessarily. Morrissey described being a cultural Catholic as "you may well become atheist" but you'll still beg for God's mercy on your deathbed, because the old superstitions were drilled into you as a child.



I guess it depends on where you live. This is just speculation, but I imagine part of his wearing the crucifix might be similar to his wearing of "bling." He seems to like the accoutrements of macho and criminal subcultures.



That's just it. I don't think a spiritual person would write lyrics mocking orthodox beliefs about God and Jesus.

I think I probably live in a country as catholic as you can find nowadays (when the grasp of Catholicism has sharply declined everywhere).

Wearing a crucifix seems very different from bling (new word for me). It doesn't belong to any macho or criminal subculture.
Still, it could be the case, but his post asking for prayers for his mother very strongly indicate otherwise. It seemed very religious in nature. Didn't he even ask for two different kind of prayers? My knowledge about this is almost nonexistent, but are the kind of prayers he mentioned an actual thing?

I think a spiritual person might write that sort of lyrics if said person does not himself hold orthodox religious beliefs. I do not think however that what he's doing in those songs can be accurately described as "mocking".