Question Moz & God

Raphael Lambach

Well-Known Member
I always thought Moz was agnostic or something like that. But since some years ago, he's wearing crosses and, I guess, never spoke against religion even in a satiric way as "Satan rejected my soul"...

What do you think about it, guys?
 
Yes, he was critical of religion in the past, as a young man, but I think it’s obvious he’s embraced it now. He’s wearing crosses, yes, but he also implored us all to pray for his mother when she was at death’s door a few years back. Those messages he posted were heavily religious, as I recall. And then there’s of course “Saint in a Stained Glass Window”.

We all hear different things, but my sense of Saint in a Sainted Glass Window is that's religious-themed, but irreligious. Lines like "I know nothing comes next" seem to indicate he knows his pleading is futile. My impression is that he would like it if there were saints to intercede for us, and a Jesus to balance the ledgers of this indecent world in an afterlife—except that there isn't, making things doubly depressing. But annihilation would be a relief.

I don't know how familiar Morrissey is with the minutiae of the Roman Martyrology, but one of my favorite lines in this beautiful song is, "you tell the truth and you face being butchered." I wonder if this might be a reference to St. Clement of Alexandria, who as far as I know is one the very few orthodox theologians who argued for vegetarianism on ethical grounds (the other ones saw it as merely penitential), and Clement's sainthood was mysteriously "revoked" by the Catholic Church in the sixteenth century: his feast day was taken off the calendar and his cult was suppressed. Perhaps his stance on the eating of animal flesh could no longer be tolerated, so they gave him the axe.
 
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What is faith, without doubt?
--


Perplext in faith, but pure in deeds,
At last he beat his music out.
There lives more faith in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.

- Tennyson, In Memoriam A.H.H
 
It always surprises me when people bring up the problem of evil as though it’s a new idea, as though people of faith are such blundering idiots that it never dawned on them before.

The C of E clergy I know see the ‘arse end’ of life more than most – they are prison chaplains, they’re running foodbanks, they’ve delivered funeral sermons for murder victims, they’ve dealt with every form of human misery. It is an enormous task to try and sustain belief in a better world when you’re knee-deep in the failings of this one every single day, when everything in you is saying “where is God in all this / life is meaningless / there is nothing after death / there is no greater good / nobody cares” etc, etc.

I think Moz is like most ‘seekers’. On some level he realises that belief in anything unseen is 99.9% wishful thinking, he has no time for church teachings (‘who are virgin priests to tell..’) – but he wants answers to the big questions and he fears death and falls back on what he was taught. I don’t see anything wrong in that. Whatever gets you through the night, as John said.
 
It always surprises me when people bring up the problem of evil as though it’s a new idea, as though people of faith are such blundering idiots that it never dawned on them before.

The C of E clergy I know see the ‘arse end’ of life more than most – they are prison chaplains, they’re running foodbanks, they’ve delivered funeral sermons for murder victims, they’ve dealt with every form of human misery. It is an enormous task to try and sustain belief in a better world when you’re knee-deep in the failings of this one every single day, when everything in you is saying “where is God in all this / life is meaningless / there is nothing after death / there is no greater good / nobody cares” etc, etc.

I think Moz is like most ‘seekers’. On some level he realises that belief in anything unseen is 99.9% wishful thinking, he has no time for church teachings (‘who are virgin priests to tell..’) – but he wants answers to the big questions and he fears death and falls back on what he was taught. I don’t see anything wrong in that. Whatever gets you through the night, as John said.
The problem of evil hasn't been properly addressed by any religious apologist. That's why it's such a perennial go to argument for atheists and agnostics.
 
Came across this short blog post on the subject.

I came from a monstrously large family who were quite absurdly Catholic...when I was six there were two serious tragedies (the death of two grandparents) within the family which caused everybody to turn away from the church, and quite rightly so, and from that period onwards there was just a total disregard for something that was really quite sacrosanct previous to the tragedies.’

- Morrissey

 
It always surprises me when people bring up the problem of evil as though it’s a new idea, as though people of faith are such blundering idiots that it never dawned on them before.

For some people it might be a new idea. But a lot of atheists were once believers, so I don't think it follows that they never thought through their faith or that they consider their former co-religionists idiots. A lot of believers, as you say, wrestle with the problem of evil all the time, but for a certain portion of those it accumulates to where they feel the wrestling can't be justifiably sustained any longer, and they come out on the other side.
 
The problem of evil hasn't been properly addressed by any religious apologist. That's why it's such a perennial go to argument for atheists and agnostics.
My belief is that it can only be answered on an individual level because each persons suffering differs in severity. God calls his followers 'Israelites.' Israel is Hebrew for struggles with God. How amazing that God would call his followers that? Much significance there I think. But its significant to the issue of "the problem of evil." We each have to struggle with God over it. The Apostle Paul picks up on this (and its quoted by The The in their great tune "Slow Emotion Replay" co-writen by Johnny Marr) and says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you." in Philippians 2. But all that being said here's a great article on "the problem of evil." I encourage you all—Catholic, Protestant, Atheist—to take time to read it.
 
God asks for animal sacrifices in the Bible and also, elsewhere, gives people the permission to eat meat when they get tired of eating manna all the time, therefore, His law "Thou shall not kill" cannot apply to animals. (He also says he loves the smell of the burning meat of those sacrificed animals.)

God asked for Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice, but did not allow him to go through with it in the end, and provided an animal for him to sacrifice instead. But God in the Old Testament is not against the killing of people, those he considers his enemies who won't obey him, and the enemies of his people. This includes the murder of newborn babies.

God is extremely wrathful in the Old Testament especially, and sometimes seems to be downright evil. If you don't believe me, I can quote passages that will leave you questioning the truth about the loving God of Judaism and Christianity.

Now, I am a vegetarian myself, part vegan, and an animal lover. I also study Hermetisism, and have knowledge of many other spiritual and religious belief systems. Personally, I am inclined to believe in what is known as Natural or Universal Law in which you are not allowed to take anything that is not yours to take, first and foremost, another's sentient being's life. It matters not if that life is human, animal, or other.
 
God asks for animal sacrifices in the Bible and also, elsewhere, gives people the permission to eat meat when they get tired of eating manna all the time, therefore, His law "Thou shall not kill" cannot apply to animals. (He also says he loves the smell of the burning meat of those sacrificed animals.)

God asked for Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice, but did not allow him to go through with it in the end, and provided an animal for him to sacrifice instead. But God in the Old Testament is not against the killing of people, those he considers his enemies who won't obey him, and the enemies of his people. This includes the murder of newborn babies.

God is extremely wrathful in the Old Testament especially, and sometimes seems to be downright evil. If you don't believe me, I can quote passages that will leave you questioning the truth about the loving God of Judaism and Christianity.

Now, I am a vegetarian myself, part vegan, and an animal lover. I also study Hermetisism, and have knowledge of many other spiritual and religious belief systems. Personally, I am inclined to believe in what is known as Natural or Universal Law in which you are not allowed to take anything that is not yours to take, first and foremost, another's sentient being's life. It matters not if that life is human, animal, or other.

other ?
 
My belief is that it can only be answered on an individual level because each persons suffering differs in severity. God calls his followers 'Israelites.' Israel is Hebrew for struggles with God. How amazing that God would call his followers that? Much significance there I think. But its significant to the issue of "the problem of evil." We each have to struggle with God over it. The Apostle Paul picks up on this (and its quoted by The The in their great tune "Slow Emotion Replay" co-writen by Johnny Marr) and says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you." in Philippians 2. But all that being said here's a great article on "the problem of evil." I encourage you all—Catholic, Protestant, Atheist—to take time to read it.
Tim Keller is great. Will definitely be reading this. Thanks.
 
God asks for animal sacrifices in the Bible and also, elsewhere, gives people the permission to eat meat when they get tired of eating manna all the time, therefore, His law "Thou shall not kill" cannot apply to animals. (He also says he loves the smell of the burning meat of those sacrificed animals.)

God asked for Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice, but did not allow him to go through with it in the end, and provided an animal for him to sacrifice instead. But God in the Old Testament is not against the killing of people, those he considers his enemies who won't obey him, and the enemies of his people. This includes the murder of newborn babies.

God is extremely wrathful in the Old Testament especially, and sometimes seems to be downright evil. If you don't believe me, I can quote passages that will leave you questioning the truth about the loving God of Judaism and Christianity.

Now, I am a vegetarian myself, part vegan, and an animal lover. I also study Hermetisism, and have knowledge of many other spiritual and religious belief systems. Personally, I am inclined to believe in what is known as Natural or Universal Law in which you are not allowed to take anything that is not yours to take, first and foremost, another's sentient being's life. It matters not if that life is human, animal, or other.
I would argue that God's wrath is still very present in the New Testament but that it is poured out on himself/Jesus. So his wrath at humanity acting in a way that God didn't design us to act (i.e. breaking natural/universal laws [stealing, murder], as well as laws specified by God in the Bible [sabbath observance, worshipping him]) is dealt with or resolved by God. He takes the hit that was coming to each of us.
 
But all that being said here's a great article on "the problem of evil." I encourage you all—Catholic, Protestant, Atheist—to take time to read it.

This essay only has two comments on it, but they're perfect. Responding to Tim Keller's argument that we mere mortals should not presume to think we know better than the mysteries which the Almighty reserves to himself, Jack Foster wonders, "if God is withholding His plan from humanity, is that not a form of deception, and therefore evil?"

To which adam replies: "idk nerd."
 
Who will protect us from the police? Maybe god will ? (Maybe not)
 
.

I guess vegetarians might take the commandment Thou shalt NOT KILL in a different way than
Christians then?

.
With plants being so abused despite us all depending on them, the UN launched an International Day of Plant Health falling on 12 May: https://human-wrongs-watch.net/2023...cks-on-the-source-of-80-of-food-98-of-oxygen/

Spirituality can help people value life even when taken for sustenance. In that sense of an outlook, Morrissey's always been so.

mozbud 004.JPG
 
I do not believe in organised Religion, made by man, and written about 500 years after Christ died. I’m Catholic. It took me 50 years to fully accept that and understand why I feel that way. So obviously there’s no heaven or hell in my afterlife. I do belief a part of us, if not all, carries on, though.
 
God come down if you're really there
well you're the one who claims to care


Little lamb
on a hill
Run fast if you can
Good Christians they want to kill you
And your life has not even begun
You're just like me

View attachment 91089
well that sentence sounds like he's either talking about abortion or "being killed" in a sense of being brainwashed..
Anyway I was born in a catholic country and went to a catholic school so I know what he's talking about...
 
'Dear God Please Help Me' is interesting because it sounds like a plea of help or forgiveness from the unknown which can sometimes happen with those who aren't religious, like casting your eyes up for a miracle. I thought religion in his songs was symbolic or used slightly ironically, for example- asking for help from someone that you can't see. 'I have forgiven Jesus' as if Moz decided Jesus has made a personal attack and took it upon himself to forgive him, which is ironic, with desperation or cynicism.
 
'Dear God Please Help Me' is interesting because it sounds like a plea of help or forgiveness from the unknown which can sometimes happen with those who aren't religious, like casting your eyes up for a miracle. I thought religion in his songs was symbolic or used slightly ironically, for example- asking for help from someone that you can't see. 'I have forgiven Jesus' as if Moz decided Jesus has made a personal attack and took it upon himself to forgive him, which is ironic, with desperation or cynicism.

Yes, it's a deliciously wry and blasphemous take on the Almighty and his son in both Dear God Please Help Me and I Have Forgiven Jesus. This is not a devout person, and if he's a believer, it's in a vague "there must be something out there and even though it seems indifferent, maybe it occasionally cares for us in its own inscrutable way." I think one of his saddest and bleakest lines is in Asleep: "there is another world | there is a better world | well, there must be."
 

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