Moz/Celibacy/Camille Paglia

L

LoafingOaf

Guest
Morrissey is the Observer:
====
Does he have relationships ever? 'Not physical relationships, no. I mean there are some people on this planet who aren't obsessed with sex, and I'm one of them. I'm not interested. And I'm not cloaking something, I'm not going somewhere under cover of night and existing in some wild secretive way. I wasn't interested when I was 17, I wasn't interested when I was 27, I was less interested when I was 37 and I'm even less interested now. I really enjoy my own company enormously, so I don't feel a great gaping hole. I sit at home at night and I feel absolutely honoured not having to cater for anybody, or listen, or put up with anybody. I feel it's a great privilege to live alone.'
====

I wonder if Morrissey has ever read Camille Paglia. He might like her!
His name and celibacy came up in a 1997 "Ask Camille" column on salon.com.
Have a looksie:

====
Dear Camille:
Reading the essays of Jean Cocteau, I am struck by the similarity between his elaborate self-description as a celibate (and history's evidence to the contrary) and the self-promotion of the modern singer known as Morrissey. While I can't presume to know Morrissey's private life, I'm curious: Is there a long tradition of strenuously gay artists who go to great lengths to portray themselves as morose celibates? Can such a trend (if it exists) be the product of more than simple protection from societal prejudice? A flamboyantly celibate mini-genre?

A real-life, albeit unwilling, celibate

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Unwilling Celibate,
There is indeed a gay tradition of abstinence or celibacy, beginning with Plato's "Symposium," where the gorgeous Alcibiades describes his inability to seduce Socrates while they slept together one long winter night. Even Shakespeare, in his love sonnets to the mysterious "fair youth," seems to suggest that physical contact did not occur, by the poet's own choice.

A good example of the ideological bias and unscholarly amateurism running through women's studies and gay studies is the way this issue of abstinence has been ignored or derided. All the great world religions, including sensuous Hinduism, honor celibacy as intrinsic to the ethical discipline of asceticism.

The best of the medieval monks did not hate women or sex but sought to suppress the body in order to intensify their spiritual experience of God. The monkish impulse is detectable in the saturnine, reclusive Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci, who are crudely classified as "gay" today but who probably had very little sex in their stunningly productive lifetimes.

In "Sexual Personae," I discuss celibacy as a symbol of psychological autonomy in the great Greek virgin goddesses, Athena and Artemis, as well as in the French novelist Balzac, who dressed in a monk's robe and abstained from sex during his Herculean labors on "The Human Comedy." I suspect that Walt Whitman too, despite some random romping and groping, was basically celibate.

As someone whose dating life was for many years a complete disaster, I can testify that celibacy can enormously benefit artists and intellectuals, to whom it gives both energy and detachment. Balzac's fierce Cousin Bette gains from her virginity "a diabolical strength or the black magic of the Will." Perhaps Jean Cocteau, despite his gay adventures, reached this revelation.
====
 
R

Robert Evans - the Comeback Kid

Guest
I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Lithuanian...

> Morrissey is the Observer:
> ====
> Does he have relationships ever? 'Not physical relationships, no. I mean
> there are some people on this planet who aren't obsessed with sex, and I'm
> one of them. I'm not interested. And I'm not cloaking something, I'm not
> going somewhere under cover of night and existing in some wild secretive
> way. I wasn't interested when I was 17, I wasn't interested when I was 27,
> I was less interested when I was 37 and I'm even less interested now. I
> really enjoy my own company enormously, so I don't feel a great gaping
> hole. I sit at home at night and I feel absolutely honoured not having to
> cater for anybody, or listen, or put up with anybody. I feel it's a great
> privilege to live alone.'
> ====

> I wonder if Morrissey has ever read Camille Paglia. He might like her!
> His name and celibacy came up in a 1997 "Ask Camille" column on
> salon.com.
> Have a looksie:

> ====
> Dear Camille:
> Reading the essays of Jean Cocteau, I am struck by the similarity between
> his elaborate self-description as a celibate (and history's evidence to
> the contrary) and the self-promotion of the modern singer known as
> Morrissey. While I can't presume to know Morrissey's private life, I'm
> curious: Is there a long tradition of strenuously gay artists who go to
> great lengths to portray themselves as morose celibates? Can such a trend
> (if it exists) be the product of more than simple protection from societal
> prejudice? A flamboyantly celibate mini-genre?

> A real-life, albeit unwilling, celibate

>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Dear Unwilling Celibate,
> There is indeed a gay tradition of abstinence or celibacy, beginning with
> Plato's "Symposium," where the gorgeous Alcibiades describes his
> inability to seduce Socrates while they slept together one long winter
> night. Even Shakespeare, in his love sonnets to the mysterious "fair
> youth," seems to suggest that physical contact did not occur, by the
> poet's own choice.

> A good example of the ideological bias and unscholarly amateurism running
> through women's studies and gay studies is the way this issue of
> abstinence has been ignored or derided. All the great world religions,
> including sensuous Hinduism, honor celibacy as intrinsic to the ethical
> discipline of asceticism.

> The best of the medieval monks did not hate women or sex but sought to
> suppress the body in order to intensify their spiritual experience of God.
> The monkish impulse is detectable in the saturnine, reclusive Michelangelo
> and Leonardo da Vinci, who are crudely classified as "gay" today
> but who probably had very little sex in their stunningly productive
> lifetimes.

> In "Sexual Personae," I discuss celibacy as a symbol of
> psychological autonomy in the great Greek virgin goddesses, Athena and
> Artemis, as well as in the French novelist Balzac, who dressed in a monk's
> robe and abstained from sex during his Herculean labors on "The Human
> Comedy." I suspect that Walt Whitman too, despite some random romping
> and groping, was basically celibate.

> As someone whose dating life was for many years a complete disaster, I can
> testify that celibacy can enormously benefit artists and intellectuals, to
> whom it gives both energy and detachment. Balzac's fierce Cousin Bette
> gains from her virginity "a diabolical strength or the black magic of
> the Will." Perhaps Jean Cocteau, despite his gay adventures, reached
> this revelation.
> ====
 
V

Vampirio Lesbo

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Lithuanian...

Honey, it is possible to like dick but to dislike all the things attached to it (tank tops, rainbow flags, 12 step programs for sexual compulsives) and thus choose to be celibate.

Are you really Lithuanian?
 
M

Mindy

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Lithuanian...

not that it matters, but i think morrissey probably has dalliances with l'amour from time to time, but rejects the gay lifestyle in general for its negative connotations (i.e. promiscuity, shallowness, etc.). he seems to have a morbid fascination with these things in that he is attracted to them but doesnt want them in his own life.

p.s. the above was my opinion strictly, so i hope no one gets upset about it.
 
R

Robert Evans - the Comeback Kid

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Lithuanian...

> Honey, it is possible to like dick but to dislike all the things attached
> to it (tank tops, rainbow flags, 12 step programs for sexual compulsives)
> and thus choose to be celibate.

> Are you really Lithuanian?
I'm Mexican, born at San Bernardino area. (My biological dad is Frank Zappa... Oh, I wish...)

Celibacy as an engine for the creativity???... Look, "celibacy" of Catholic priests produced very ugly results indeed... Now peoples leave Catholic church in droves... Celibacy is an unhealthy unnatural phenomena... Did you ever see voluntary celibate animals? I'm sure somebody who dislikes "gay scene like [tank tops, rainbow flags, 12 step programs for sexual compulsives], not to mention annoying Kylie tunes at every mofo gay bar on the face of the Earth", could find another gay individuum who dislikes "gay scene" too... maybe those guys or gals could buy a house at Orange county and go gardening and square-dancing together... There are plenty legit gay couples who hate gay scene... especially if both are over 30 and had enough of the Carnival and are longing to be like 'em regular folks... But it is not the same as celibacy!

Celibacy for gays (lesbians) is an old Catholic church shtick I love to hate, HONEY DARLING.
 
V

Vampirio Lesbo

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Lithuanian...

> a house at Orange county and go gardening and square-dancing together >
this may strike terror in moz's heart as well.

but seriously, some people just can't have relationships... the reasons we will probably never know.

of course, it could all be a rhetorical pose... wasn't it oscar wilde who called celibacy the last remaining perversion? what an ingenious provocation!

by the way, would you do morrissey if given the opportunity, robert evans?
 
R

Robert Evans - the Comeback Kid

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Lithuanian...

> this may strike terror in moz's heart as well.

> but seriously, some people just can't have relationships... the reasons we
> will probably never know.

> of course, it could all be a rhetorical pose... wasn't it oscar wilde who
> called celibacy the last remaining perversion? what an ingenious
> provocation!

> by the way, would you do morrissey if given the opportunity, robert evans?
Answer is too obvious... I guess even my boyfriend would not mind... He would say, Go and tell me later! (Dirty rotten sinful smirk)
 
M

Mindy

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Lithuanian...

at one point in history, 25% of the Tibeten population practiced celibacy and they lived idyllic lives - that is until the Chinese decided to fuck with them.

the point is, celibacy can be a good thing. it is a bad thing in the catholic church simply because these men arent given any other outlet for self-expression. back in the day, monks got to illuminate manuscripts and do things they were passionate about in that respect. what has a priest got to be passionate about? how can a priest express his creativity? the clergy of the catholic church is extremely repressed and that has created homosexual behaviour (because honey, most of them are not true homosexuals) and pedophilia.

in any case, this has got nothing to do with morrissey. he has a right to a reasonable amount of privacy. as much as i would love to hop in bed with him, it is not my place to know whether or not such a thing would interest him or make him want to vomit and run into the arms of the nearest flamer in sight.

i think celibacy is cool and can make a big statement.
 
R

Robert Evans - the Comeback Kid

Guest
I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Estonian...

> at one point in history, 25% of the Tibeten population practiced celibacy
> and they lived idyllic lives - that is until the Chinese decided to fuck
> with them.
Bad bad horny Chinese... I hope Tibetians were a good lay... (Smiley Face) Come on, do you really believe Tibetians were 25% celibate before Chinese cum... oops, came? Then I could thank heavens I'm Mexican... Wink, wink...

> the point is, celibacy can be a good thing. it is a bad thing in the
> catholic church simply because these men arent given any other outlet for
> self-expression. back in the day, monks got to illuminate manuscripts and
> do things they were passionate about in that respect. what has a priest
> got to be passionate about? how can a priest express his creativity? the
> clergy of the catholic church is extremely repressed and that has created
> homosexual behaviour (because honey, most of them are not true
> homosexuals) and pedophilia.
Well, Catholic priests are repressed, and not even remarkably dressed...
OK, my short list of sex-killing activities, and therefore a perfect road to celibacy:
1.) Lumberjack-ing... (I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK, I work all nite and I sleep all day)
2.) Writing speeches for DICK Cheney or Bush Jr...
3.) Exterminating COCK-roaches...
4.) Writing at moz-solo all evening long...
5.) Visiting meditating Tibetian monks...

(with sad sad faces and tiny weeny schlongs)...
Sorry, Mr Richard Gere...
list could go on and on...

> in any case, this has got nothing to do with morrissey. he has a right to
> a reasonable amount of privacy. as much as i would love to hop in bed with
> him, it is not my place to know whether or not such a thing would interest
> him or make him want to vomit and run into the arms of the nearest flamer
> in sight.
I thought Moz hates flamers... He likes boxer/rough trade/Cockney type, does he?... (Jake Walters)

> i think celibacy is cool and can make a big statement.
big statement about what? about being repressed and miserable?
 
D

Daiobri

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Estonian...

This is an interesting topic. I am feeling very torn here though, because I have alot of respect for both Morrissey and Camille Paglia, and I do tend to agree with alot of the stuff she says. Sexual Personae is a brilliant book. However, I really don't think that I agree with either or their views on celibacy. I don't really think that you could leave a complete fulfilled life without experiencing some sort of sexual intimace with someone at some point in your life.

Maybe you could be celibate for certain periods in your life, when you don't want the hassle of sex, but I just can't imagine someone being celibate for ALL their life. They're missing out on such FUN!!

God Morrissey must masturbate ALOT though, I mean its gotta go somewhere. Oooh I'd love to be a voyeur and watch him wank. :)
 
M

mozisyummy

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Estonian...

> God Morrissey must masturbate ALOT though, I mean its gotta go somewhere.
> Oooh I'd love to be a voyeur and watch him wank. :)

Mmmm, sounds tasty...
 
F

Fedor de V

Guest
Everybody likes IT

Dear celibates

I always thought that man was borne into this world to reproduce. So please don't tell me that it's possible not to feel a need to have sex. Every single adult person in this world is craving for it. The one's who are not, have picked up an emotional trauma during their life.

And that is the plain and simple thruth

Freud himself
 
M

Mindy

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Estonian...

i dont think you understood my point about the tibetens, due to my unfortunate diction. i meant before the chinese invaded tibet and killed a large percentage of the population and destroyed most of the monasteries, upwards of 20% of tibetens were buddhist monks or nuns. It's a fact, baby. i'm just saying that the tibetens lived happily this way.

additionally, the flamer reference was meant in jest.

and furthermore, i'd rather be repressed and miserable than have sex with any of the vile people i know. call me elitist, but celibacy is the only viable option for the modern person whose standards are far too high and who refuses to go slumming (morally speaking).
 
J

Jamie

Guest
Morrissey is Celibate NOW

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't he all but admitted in the past that he has had SOME sort of sexual experience with men AND women? Perhaps he IS that 1% of the population who had such a bad experience that it put him totally off "the stuff."

On the other hand, it appears that a lot of people are examining this from a purely sensual, physical view. And, certainly, a large portion of humanity has a basic need for gratification. I think Morrissey's self-professed physical revulsion to sex (and the female figure, as he's said in the past) combines with his emotional difficulty with love and supercharges the need to be on his own. Sex can often require you to give a lot of yourself emotionally and spiritually to your partner. Morrissey seems to not know how to openly accept love in the conventional sense which would make lovemaking an overwhelming experience.

Interesting observations about the Catholic priests and the gradual elimination of their creative outlets, too.

Cheers,

Jamie
 
C

Camille Paglia (not)

Guest
Re: I don't believe Moz is celibate. He likes dick! Sorry for my Lithuanian...

Hey Bob,

I think that Morrissey's frequent declarations of celibacy can be compared with those nude classical sculptures of Venus in which the goddess shields and at the same time draws attention to her breasts and genitals. He's hiding something but drawing attention to it at the same time.

By that I mean, by claiming that he is celibate and uninterested in sex, he makes us more interested in him as a sexual person and encourages us to speculate on what he really gets up to. He also understands the relationship between an idol and his fans and the role of fantasy in that relationship.... maybe there are fans who right now are dreaming that Morrissey just hasn't met the right person yet and as soon as he meets them all that will change.... and the fact that Morrissey has not named the preferred gender of his sexual partners allows that to continue.

Once we know everything about someone's sex life, or have seen them naked we lose interest.(Or is that just me???) If Morrissey was married or had a live-in boyfriend/girlfriend we wouldn't be discussing it and he would be less interesting and less talked about.
 
F

Fedor de V

Guest
Re: NOT Everybody (you must be a man)

Dear Notastitchtowear

I can and will not deny that I'm a man. (look at my user profile).
What I tried to say is that it's human nature to have sex. Something (traumatic?) must have happened during one's life not feel this need.
I am not saying that one has to have sex on his mind 24/7, but never thinking about/ or wanting to have sex seems unimaginable to me. (and to a couple of billion other people).

If you happen to be an exception to this rule, I am without any doubt perfectly allright with that!
 
N

Notastitchtowear

Guest
Re: NOT Everybody (you must be a man)

> Dear Notastitchtowear

> I can and will not deny that I'm a man. (look at my user profile).
> What I tried to say is that it's human nature to have sex. Something
> (traumatic?) must have happened during one's life not feel this need.
> I am not saying that one has to have sex on his mind 24/7, but never
> thinking about/ or wanting to have sex seems unimaginable to me. (and to a
> couple of billion other people).

> If you happen to be an exception to this rule, I am without any doubt
> perfectly allright with that!

Well I'm so glad that you approve. For a guy to make that generalization is just so typical. You cannot say that everyone who does not like/LOVE sex has deep seeded emotional issues. That's just completely incorrect. There are many other reasons for women not to enjoy sex, and some men too. And you are pretty presumptuous if you think that you speak for a "couple billion people", just speak for yourself.
 
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