Morrissey with Thelma Houston: singing on next album "early 2020" (pictured 12 August, 2019)



full


20190813_112316.jpg





Release date mentioned by Thelma also.
Regards,
FWD.


Related item:
  • Morrissey Statement/San Diego Date - Mar. 24, 2012

    Excerpt posted by Dave:

    In April, EMI re-issue my 1988 single Suedehead as remixed by Ron and Russell Mael. This is a great thrill for me, and I am indebted till death to Ron and Russell.
    You might also be aware that Thelma Houston has also recorded Suedehead this year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oh, yes. I just know the GEM sees plenty of himself to in this article too, no doubt.


The Philosophical Fascists of the Gay Alt-Right
By Maureen O'Connor
29-alt-right-gay-nazis.w700.h700.jpg

Photo: Peter Beste
Jack Donovan — a 42-year-old skinhead icon and right-wing extremist — lived the gay life once. It was in the 1990s, after he left his parents’ blue-collar home in rural Pennsylvania to study fine art in New York, when he danced go-go in gay clubs, hung out with drag queens, and marched for gay pride. But then he dropped out, learned how to use tools and work as a manual laborer, studied MMA, and decided he wasn’t gay — just “an unrepentant masculinist.”

“I am not gay because the word gay connotes so much more than same-sex desire,” Donovan announced, under a pseudonym, on the first page of 2006’s Androphilia: A Manifesto: Rejecting the Gay Identity, Reclaiming Masculinity (echoing, probably unintentionally, the speech Tony Kushner wrote for Roy Cohn in Angels in America). “The word gay describes a whole cultural and political movement that promotes anti-male feminism, victim mentality, and leftist politics.” He appropriated a new term, androphile, to describe a man whose love of masculinity includes sex with other men.

Related Stories
Beyond Alt: Understanding the New Far Right
Gay men are remarkably prominent — if not exactly abundant — in the alt-right universe. Take the infamous Milo Yiannopoulos, who powered a meteoric rise and fall on the sheer cognitive dissonance between his flamboyant self-presentation and callous politics. (When Out magazine profiled Milo, the story’s writer Chadwick Moore “came out as a conservative.”) Or artist turned reporter Lucian Wintrich, who joined the White House press corps when Trump-cheering blog Gateway Pundit (edited by a gay man) received its first credential. But even those men seem relatively mainstream when you compare them with Donovan, who has contributed to “dapper white nationalist” (and friend) Richard Spencer’s journal, advocates for a form of “anarcho-fascism,” and founded a chapter of a masculinist “tribe” called the Wolves of Vinland, which the Southern Poverty Law Center classifies as a hate group. (One member recently served time for burning down a historically black church.) Which makes sense when he shows me photos from their neopagan fight-club rituals, which sometimes involve nooses.

To hear Donovan tell it, his sexuality is a nonissue. It’s a point echoed by several of his peers, who don’t see their political views and sexual identities as contradictory but complementary. “Masculinity is a religion, and I see potential for androphiles to become its priests,” Donovan wrote in Androphilia, “to devote themselves to it” in a way that men who understand their manliness through women — in quantifying the number they’ve slept with or measuring “men’s rights” against “women’s rights” — can’t. And so androphiles like Donovan have found common ground with the gender-traditionalists and male-advocacy groups elsewhere in the messy carnival of the new right, where reactions to women range from outright hostility to benign disinterest.

And they’re not interested in queer solidarity, either. “Apart from Camille Paglia, of course, I can’t think of any interesting lesbians,” gay white nationalist James O’Meara told me in an interview. Or as Donovan said, “I think most of them are so married to feminism that I don’t think that’s even an option.” To say nothing of trans issues, which most gay alt-righters rejected (“I know three transgender people in our movement,” Counter-Currents editor Greg Johnson offered, before arguing against the designation. “White nationalism should be straight but not narrow,” he said, inadvertently repeating a slogan popularized by an anti-bullying LGBT nonprofit.) Donovan sees himself as a member of the earliest generation of gay men who could be free to ditch the “victim mentality” of queer politics. In Androphilia, he praises activists who fought to decriminalize gay sex and to combat institutional indifference to AIDS “It would be remiss not to credit the Gay Rights Movement for fighting against this sort of oppression, intolerance, and intentional negligence,” he writes, but “having achieved relative tolerance for same-sex-oriented people in mainstream culture, and having brought an end to police harassment and widespread discrimination, the Gay Rights Movement has turned to nitpicking.” He isn’t against identity politics. He’s loud and proud about his race and his gender — traits that, unlike his sexuality, do not make him a minority. “Ten out of ten minorities agree that being a minority can really blow,” he explains in “Mighty White,” an essay defending white nationalism in those who fear losing, or in some contexts have already lost, majority racial status.

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Donovan — whose partner of 20 years is a Trump supporter of Mexican descent — supports white nationalists, but denies belonging in their ranks. “I just think that’s a silly goal,” he says of the so-called white ethnostate. Whiteness, he points out, “is an American approximation of nationality,” which doesn’t make as much sense as, say, German nationalism — which he became familiar with when he delivered a speech praising masculine violence at a far-right German nationalist convention near Leipzig in February. Violence is a component of Donovan’s “gang theory of masculinity,” an idea he became so enamored of that he felt he could not actualize as a man until he had a gang of his own. Enter the Wolves of Vinland, a club started near Lynchburg, Virginia, by brothers Paul and Matthias Waggener, a pair of avid bodybuilders who love blackmetal bands (a.k.a. National Socialist Black Metal bands). The sons of an Orthodox priest, the Waggeners have said in interviews that they experimented with drugs, satanism, and “gangster shit” before discovering neopaganism, also known as “heathenism,” which became the foundation of their club.

“The rest of the Wolves are not homos, and we don’t consider ourselves a white-nationalist or alt-right group,” Donovan clarifies by email. White nationalists and the alt-right do, however, seem to consider them kin, judging by the frequency of pro-Vinland programming in white-nationalist and alt-right media. One thing those groups share is an intellectual foundation of gender and race essentialism: “Our women are females, they’re females, and our males are masculine, and we don’t look for sameness between sexes,” Paul Waggener told Greg Johnson in an interview. To be masculine, a man doesn’t need to have sex with women — although he should probably be stronger than women, and hold his own in brawls, and have tactical skills, and provide. And he should be brave, which is why Donovan gets so irritated when he’s accused of homophobia. “That’s a construction. That’s a silencing word and it’s meant to emasculate,” he says. “When you say someone’s phobic, you’re saying that they’re afraid. That’s why they call men phobic constantly — they’re transphobic, they’re homophobic, they’re afraid of women.” Political correctness “is just a way of calling a man a coward.” (When it comes to language, Jack is more sensitive about ideology than sexuality. He still doesn’t like the word gay but occasionally uses it for conversational expediency and punch lines about “being gay” with his boyfriend about their new pet dog.)

Who feels fear, and why, and whether their fear is rational, seems to be at the heart of the mainstream’s tension with the alt-right. If a man gives a speech called “Violence Is Golden,” is that scary? What if his audience includes white nationalists? And if he’s gay, does that change, well, anything? Not really, says historian Jim Downs, author of Stand by Me: The Forgotten History of Gay Liberation. “If you look at every movement, you’re going to find these moments” of unexpected orientations and identities that seem anomalous within a movement. But if enough people join a club, inevitably, some won’t be straight. “There were gay Nazis,” Downs points out. “But follow where the story leads you: They get massacred.” What seems safe at one moment can be taboo a moment later, and traits that are liabilities in one context can be elsewhere. As recently as 2004, Republicans bragged about opposing gay rights to rally the base, while supporters like John Kerry avoided the topic. Today, longstanding opponents of gay rights are the ones who avoid the question — or set aside long-held beliefs in the name of pragmatism.

“I think gays can be particularly useful to the alt-right,” Alternative Right editor Colin Liddell told me. “Our movement is a revolutionary and taboo-busting movement, and gays have the right ‘psychological equipment’ for that. And, because of their lack of immediate family, gays often have a stronger feeling for their ‘wider family.’ The left has successfully displaced this sentiment to the fake ‘gay community’ or to leftist causes in general, but the true wider family for gays is their particular tribal or ethnic group.”

Donovan seems to be living proof of that theory — but not, perhaps, by choice. When I ask if he’d like to have children, he replies, “If I did, it would be with a woman.” He’s jealous of the “multigenerational experience” that straight couples can have just by f***ing. Their DNA becomes entwined, playing out together for generations, even after they’re dead. The tribe lives on. “I’ve been really lucky,” he continues. “The guy I’m with, he’s my family. We just got a dog together, and we’re being gay for the dog.” He laughs. “I’m very lucky and, I think, very unusual in that sense. I think a lot of homosexual men end up being alone. I think it’s very unstable and very lonely. It’s not something that’s — like — if I met a young man who would say, ‘Hey, you know, I’m questioning,’ I’d say, ‘Don’t.’ I would advise them, unless there is no other way, I would say, ‘If you have the choice between men and women, be straight.’”
 
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I did not read beyond the headline but i take it you're mad that have been calling the gay facists on this forum sodomites

None of this has anything to do with this thread. You're deflecting and lashing out for attention. I'm guessing you're single

Plenty of us here know that you're very much in denial as to who you are. Because you are, petal. Do read this...if you dare. Not that you can.

Queer Fascism and the End of Gay History
By Laurie Marhoefer

Laurie Marhoefer

Now that everyone is talking about fascism, let’s mull this over: the struggle against fascism gave the world its first openly gay politician. As I describe in Sex and the Weimar Republic, as the Nazi Party vied for power in Germany in 1932, an antifascist outed a top Nazi, Ernst Röhm, by publishing a series of letters Röhm had written about his own sexuality. The macho Röhm, a key early backer of Hitler, was then head of the Nazi Party militia, the Stormtroopers. In the letters, he described his desire for men, writing “I consider myself to be same-sex orientated [gleichgeschlechtlich].” The outcome of a subsequent libel suit forced Röhm to tacitly concede in public what he never denied in private – that the letters were not fakes and he was, indeed, same-sex orientated.

Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-15282A_Ernst_Röhm-e1528383664941.jpg

Ernst Röhm (Wikimedia Commons)
These days, the Right is in power in the United States, and people are remembering the first openly gay politician, that is, Ernst Röhm. 2017 brought a wave of new essays on what Röhm means for those of us living in the age of Trump. Commentators generally re-told Röhm’s story for one of two reasons: either as a way to note that – surprise! – there are queers on the far right or to recycle the very old, erroneous claim that fascism was queer. (I and others have critiqued that claim.)

Is there an Ernst Röhm for our moment? Yes, I’d submit, but the conclusions people are drawing are plagued by two problems. Both are problems that arise from the way we historians go about writing gay history.


#1. Queer Fascism
Almost one hundred years after antifascists outed Röhm, why are people still so shocked to find queers on the far right? The shock comes from the flawed assumption that queers by definition are liberal or left-of-center.

So, for example, when Trump nominated an arch conservative judge to the U.S.’s highest court, one widely circulated commentary suggested that despite his an anti-trans record, the judge, Neil Gorsuch, must be a moderate on gay rights because he had a close gay friend. (As it turns out, Gorsuch is not a moderate on gay rights.)

Yet some “gay friends” are right-wing extremists. They do not necessarily share the political goals of left-leaning queers. They see their broader, right-wing politics as compatible with their queerness. A queer far-right, anti-liberal, racist movement dates back to the nineteenth century. It is as old as other branches of what Germans called the “homosexual emancipation movement.”

Röhm was not a queer man who suddenly joined a homophobic political party in a fit of inexplicable, profound confusion. His views on sexual politics were, rather, comfortably within what in his day was a decades-old tradition of far-right queerness. Röhm’s queer fascism was identical to the Nazi Party’s ideology in almost all respects, save on questions of male-male eroticism. That was, however, a significant difference. Queer fascism was not synonymous with what one might call “mainstream” fascism – that is, fascism as articulated by big Nazi institutions, such as the Party. The Nazi Party’s position on homosexuality was that it was a dangerous, emasculating threat and ought to be eradicated. Jews supposedly promoted it in order to undermine the “Aryan” race. (Nazi thinkers had a number of other fears about homosexuality, too. See Geoffrey Giles on this.)

A long-forgotten essay called “National Socialism and Inversion” allows a close look at queer fascism. The essay is part of a public exchange that a man in Röhm’s circle had with the most famous of Germany’s homosexual emancipation groups, the center-left Scientific Humanitarian Committee (SHC). The author of “National Socialism and Inversion” was a member of the Stormtroopers; he is identified in the text only as “Anonymous.”

Screen-Shot-2018-06-04-at-2.38.01-PM-e1528383877689.png

Title page of the journal that published Anonymous, “Nationalsozialismus und Inversion [National Socialism and Inversion,” Mitteilungen des Wissenschaftlich-humanitären Komitees 32, January/March 1932. (Image courtesy of author.)
Anonymous did not exactly disagree with the mainstream Nazi Party’s position on male-male eroticism. He, too, hated homosexuality. To Anonymous, “homosexuality” meant male femininity, Marxism, and Judaism. Yet in his worldview, there were multiple queer subjectivities, or multiple ways to be a queer person. What he saw in himself was not “homosexuality” but something else entirely, a “manly Eros” that was spiritual rather than lustful, and was experienced discreetly among “healthy and respectable fellows” in the Nazi Party militia.

“Manly Eros” was, Anonymous wrote, “fundamentally” different from homosexuality as defined by the left-leaning SHC, a form of male-male eroticism he associated with feminine men, gender-crossing, and transvestitism. He hated the limited public queer culture that existed in Germany in the 1920s, the dance palaces, the magazines, and the moonlight cruises. The SHC’s advocacy of citizenship for homosexuals was steeped in “liberalism and Marxism,” he wrote, and “violate the characteristics of our race.” But masculine, discreet, manly Eros was wholly compatible with a healthy “Aryan” racial consciousness.

Just to be clear: the male-male eroticism about which Anonymous waxed poetic was not incidental to his fascism. It was, rather, the foundation of it. (On this see also Andrew Wackerfuss’s recent book.) Anonymous wrote that the hand of a Nazi militia man “can strike a blow but also caress.” The blows being struck by those hands were against Jews, Social Democrats, Communists, and homosexuals. From the barracks where discreet, manly caresses took place under cover of night, in the morning militia men marched forth to beat anti-fascists to death.

What Anonymous wanted from other fascists was quiet accommodation, not public acceptance. He argued that most Nazis would overlook homoeroticism in the barracks as long as the men in question did their “duty.” Even as he celebrated queer fascism, he took pains to accommodate the anti-queer sentiments of most fascists.

As I have argued elsewhere, this is not “homonormativity”; to paraphrase Lisa Duggan – it did not seek a demobilized queer subject with a private sex live. Rather, it mobilized a certain kind of far right subject with a certain kind of sexual-political ideology. That ideology affirmed homoeroticism, albeit hidden homoeroticism, rejected “homosexuality,” and embraced violence and racism.

Anonymous’s vision of homoerotic fascism does not seem to have thrived within the Nazi Party. Though not all historians agree about this, my reading of the documentary evidence is that the Nazi State – which murdered more men for the “crime” of having sex with men than any other state – never got on board with Anonymous’s politics.

At the same time, far-right queer politics outlasted 1933. One of the leaders of Germany’s current far-right party, the Alternative for Germany, is an out lesbian who has two children with her partner. In Trump’s victory in the U.S. there were inklings of a queer right, one that is not so different from Anonymous’s vision. It sees same-sex eroticism as a valued part of a racist, far-right politics.

#2. Queer Liberalism and the End of Gay History
There is no natural political position for people who feel same-sex desires. There is, however, a political tradition that has most often been the home of queer activism in the twentieth century. It is liberalism. Represented in the U.S. by groups like the ACLU and the Human Rights Coalition, queer liberalism applied classical liberal theory to sexuality. It rallied against sodomy laws and for gay marriage.

Sometimes it seems like queer liberalism was the only gay politics that ever existed. Recent histories foreground liberal gay politics to the point where its successes appeared like a sort of queer “end of history.”

In Leigh Anne Wheeler’s How Sex Became a Civil Liberty and Lillian Faderman’s The Gay Revolution, both books on the sexual politics of the U.S. published shortly before Trump’s rise, liberal activism gradually achieves most of its goals. By the end of these books, queer history seems to have come to an end point. It is a happy endpoint, if one likes queer liberalism. Faderman wrote in the June 2015 epilogue to her book: “Despite occasional setbacks, it’s undeniable: the arc of the moral universe has been bending toward justice. Frank Kameny’s observation bears repeating: ‘We started with nothing, and look what we have wrought!’”

San_Francisco_pro_gay_marriage_protest-e1528959092623.jpg

San Francisco pro gay marriage protest, 2004 (via Wikimedia Commons)
If one takes queer liberalism to be the only gay politics possible, not only does Röhm seem like an aberration, his political project seems like a thing of the past.

But it is not a thing of the past. The history of sexuality also shows that the passage of time can bring a dramatic reversal of liberal gains. The Weimar Republic, Germany’s first parliamentary democracy (1919-33), did far more to advance a liberal gay rights agenda than any other state had up to that point. It also did a lot for people who self-identified as “transvestites,” an identity category that was a forerunner of transgender. When they came to power in 1933, the Nazis promptly wrecked many of those gains.

After 1945, it took many decades for any other state to embrace a middle-of-the road, liberal gay political agenda to the extent that the Weimar Republic had. For example, the Republic nearly repealed its sodomy law in 1929. But harsh sodomy laws remained on the books in West Germany into the 1960s; the United States only scrapped its sodomy laws in 2003. It likewise took many decades for trans people to win the legal ability to change one’s legal first name to a gender-neutral name, something they could do in Germany prior to the First World War. New York City was still debating whether to allow such name changes in the early 2000s.

What existing histories of queer politics have left us unequipped to see – and would that there was no need to see this – is that liberal gains are fragile. Russia’s crackdown on the queer public sphere and the torture and murder of gay men by Chechen authorities are responses to queer politics in the twentieth century, and are very much of our own time, not throwbacks to the past that will vanish of their own accord. So was the (happily failed) American candidate for senate who wants to re-criminalize sodomy.

In addition, history shows that there are various flavors of queer politics. There are far-right queers who don’t support the goals of queer liberalism.

Röhm’s story is more relevant now than we thought.
 
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And of course, you do realise that the bloke in your avatar spent a long weekend with his gay Jewish manager in 1963. It's been for a long time the subjecy of speculation.


John Lennon and Brian Epstein holiday in Barcelona, Spain
Sunday 28 April 1963 People 27 Comments

On this day Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr went on holiday to Santa Cruz, Tenerife, for a 12-day holiday.

At the same time John Lennon accepted an offer from Brian Epstein to accompany him to Barcelona, for a trip also lasting 12 days.

It was just three weeks after Lennon's wife Cynthia had given birth to their son Julian.

I was on holiday with Brian Epstein in Spain, where the rumours went around that he and I were having a love affair. Well, it was almost a love affair, but not quite. It was never consummated. But it was a pretty intense relationship.
It was my first experience with a homosexual that I was conscious was homosexual. He had admitted it to me. We had this holiday together because Cyn was pregnant, and I went to Spain and there were lots of funny stories. We used to sit in a cafe in Torremolinos looking at all the boys and I'd say, 'Do you like that one, do you like this one?' I was rather enjoying the experience, thinking like a writer all the time: I am experiencing this, you know. And while he was out on the tiles one night, or lying asleep with a hangover one afternoon, I remember playing him the song Bad To Me. That was a commissioned song, done for Billy J Kramer, who was another of Brian's singers.

John Lennon
All We Are Saying, David Sheff
The question of whether any sexual contact happened between Lennon and Epstein has been the subject of considerable speculation in the years since.

Cyn was having a baby and the holiday was planned, but I wasn't going to break the holiday for a baby and that's what a bastard I was. And I just went on holiday. I watched Brian picking up the boys. I like playing a bit faggy, all that. It was enjoyable, but there were big rumours in Liverpool, it was terrible. Very embarrassing.
John Lennon
Lennon Remembers, Jann S Wenner


Paul McCartney later suggested that Lennon agreed to the holiday in order to assert his authority within The Beatles.

Brian Epstein was going on holiday to Spain at the same time and he invited John along. John was a smart cookie. Brian was gay, and John saw his opportunity to impress upon Mr Epstein who was the boss of the group. I think that's why he went on holiday with Brian. And good luck to him, too – he was that kind of guy; he wanted Brian to know whom he should listen to. That was the relationship. John was very much the leader in that way, although it was never actually said.
Paul McCartney
Anthology
Although neither he nor Epstein spoke on record about the event, Lennon did apparently reveal to his former schoolfriend Pete Shotton what happened. Shotton quoted the exchange at length, and with characteristic frankness, in his 1983 memoir. This is perhaps the fullest published account which claims to shed light on the true nature of Lennon's Spanish encounter with Epstein.

I visited John at Aunt Mimi's a few days after his return to England. And when he started in about how much he had enjoyed Spain, I could hardly resist taking the piss out of him. "So you had a good time with Brian, then?" I smirked. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
I was somewhat taken aback when John didn't so much as crack a smile. "Oh, f***in' hell," he groaned. "Not you as well, Pete!"
"What do you mean, not me as well?"
"They're all f***ing going on about it."
It's OK, John. Don't take it so serious. I'm just joking, for Christ's sake."
"Actually Pete," he said softly, "Something did happen with him one night."
Now that wiped the grin right off my face. Had I even dreamed there might be any truth whatsoever to the rumors, I would never have made light of the subject in the first place. Still – as John surely knew – I would have stood by him, and let the rest of the world handle the business of passing moral judgement, even if he had just told me he'd committed murder. And John would surely have done the same for me.
Which, after all, is what true friendship is all about.
"What happened," John explained, "is that Eppy just kept on and on at me. Until one night I finally just pulled me trousers down and said to him: 'Oh, for Christ's sake, Brian, just stick it up me f***ing arse then.'
"And he said to me, 'Actually, John, I don't do that kind of thing. That's not what I like to do.'
"'Well,' I said, 'what is it you like to do, then?'
"And he said, 'I'd really just like to touch you, John.'
"And so I let him toss me off."
And that was that. End of story.
"That's all, John" I said. "Well, so what? What's the big f***ing deal, then?"
"Yeah, so f***ing what! The poor bastard. He's having a f***ing hard enough time anyway." This was in reference to the "butch" dockers who, on several recent occasions, had rewarded Brian's advances by beating him to a bloody pulp.
"So what harm did it do, then, Pete, for f***'s sake?" John asked rhetorically. "No harm at all. The poor f***ing bastard, he can't help the way he is."
Pete Shotton
John Lennon: In My Life
The Spanish holiday was later dramatised in the 1991 film The Hours And Times, starring David Angus and Ian Hart as Epstein and Lennon respectively.
 
To know the state of Morrissey's career completely independent of nonsense spewed on this site by both sides, by BOTH sides- all you have to do is go to Ticketmaster.com and have a look at the seat maps. 2 weeks out from the start (finish) of the ill-fated "Me and my big f***ing mouth" tour, and so many tickets remaining. SO MANY.

Those of you with tickets, plan on getting some money back in your account shortly.
 
And of course, you do realise that the bloke in your avatar spent a long weekend with his gay Jewish manager in 1963. It's been for a long time the subjecy of speculation.


John Lennon and Brian Epstein holiday in Barcelona, Spain
Sunday 28 April 1963 People 27 Comments

On this day Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr went on holiday to Santa Cruz, Tenerife, for a 12-day holiday.

At the same time John Lennon accepted an offer from Brian Epstein to accompany him to Barcelona, for a trip also lasting 12 days.

It was just three weeks after Lennon's wife Cynthia had given birth to their son Julian.

I was on holiday with Brian Epstein in Spain, where the rumours went around that he and I were having a love affair. Well, it was almost a love affair, but not quite. It was never consummated. But it was a pretty intense relationship.
It was my first experience with a homosexual that I was conscious was homosexual. He had admitted it to me. We had this holiday together because Cyn was pregnant, and I went to Spain and there were lots of funny stories. We used to sit in a cafe in Torremolinos looking at all the boys and I'd say, 'Do you like that one, do you like this one?' I was rather enjoying the experience, thinking like a writer all the time: I am experiencing this, you know. And while he was out on the tiles one night, or lying asleep with a hangover one afternoon, I remember playing him the song Bad To Me. That was a commissioned song, done for Billy J Kramer, who was another of Brian's singers.

John Lennon
All We Are Saying, David Sheff
The question of whether any sexual contact happened between Lennon and Epstein has been the subject of considerable speculation in the years since.

Cyn was having a baby and the holiday was planned, but I wasn't going to break the holiday for a baby and that's what a bastard I was. And I just went on holiday. I watched Brian picking up the boys. I like playing a bit faggy, all that. It was enjoyable, but there were big rumours in Liverpool, it was terrible. Very embarrassing.
John Lennon
Lennon Remembers, Jann S Wenner


Paul McCartney later suggested that Lennon agreed to the holiday in order to assert his authority within The Beatles.

Brian Epstein was going on holiday to Spain at the same time and he invited John along. John was a smart cookie. Brian was gay, and John saw his opportunity to impress upon Mr Epstein who was the boss of the group. I think that's why he went on holiday with Brian. And good luck to him, too – he was that kind of guy; he wanted Brian to know whom he should listen to. That was the relationship. John was very much the leader in that way, although it was never actually said.
Paul McCartney
Anthology
Although neither he nor Epstein spoke on record about the event, Lennon did apparently reveal to his former schoolfriend Pete Shotton what happened. Shotton quoted the exchange at length, and with characteristic frankness, in his 1983 memoir. This is perhaps the fullest published account which claims to shed light on the true nature of Lennon's Spanish encounter with Epstein.

I visited John at Aunt Mimi's a few days after his return to England. And when he started in about how much he had enjoyed Spain, I could hardly resist taking the piss out of him. "So you had a good time with Brian, then?" I smirked. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
I was somewhat taken aback when John didn't so much as crack a smile. "Oh, f***in' hell," he groaned. "Not you as well, Pete!"
"What do you mean, not me as well?"
"They're all f***ing going on about it."
It's OK, John. Don't take it so serious. I'm just joking, for Christ's sake."
"Actually Pete," he said softly, "Something did happen with him one night."
Now that wiped the grin right off my face. Had I even dreamed there might be any truth whatsoever to the rumors, I would never have made light of the subject in the first place. Still – as John surely knew – I would have stood by him, and let the rest of the world handle the business of passing moral judgement, even if he had just told me he'd committed murder. And John would surely have done the same for me.
Which, after all, is what true friendship is all about.
"What happened," John explained, "is that Eppy just kept on and on at me. Until one night I finally just pulled me trousers down and said to him: 'Oh, for Christ's sake, Brian, just stick it up me f***ing arse then.'
"And he said to me, 'Actually, John, I don't do that kind of thing. That's not what I like to do.'
"'Well,' I said, 'what is it you like to do, then?'
"And he said, 'I'd really just like to touch you, John.'
"And so I let him toss me off."
And that was that. End of story.
"That's all, John" I said. "Well, so what? What's the big f***ing deal, then?"
"Yeah, so f***ing what! The poor bastard. He's having a f***ing hard enough time anyway." This was in reference to the "butch" dockers who, on several recent occasions, had rewarded Brian's advances by beating him to a bloody pulp.
"So what harm did it do, then, Pete, for f***'s sake?" John asked rhetorically. "No harm at all. The poor f***ing bastard, he can't help the way he is."
Pete Shotton
John Lennon: In My Life
The Spanish holiday was later dramatised in the 1991 film The Hours And Times, starring David Angus and Ian Hart as Epstein and Lennon respectively.

Yep producer and Jewish pedophile, homosexual Brian Epstein was grooming a young John Lennon. They all run the music industry. Another Epstein is in the news these days, also a pedophile along with child trafficking/sacrifice. The small hats love sexual subversion
 
To know the state of Morrissey's career completely independent of nonsense spewed on this site by both sides, by BOTH sides- all you have to do is go to Ticketmaster.com and have a look at the seat maps. 2 weeks out from the start (finish) of the ill-fated "Me and my big f***ing mouth" tour, and so many tickets remaining. SO MANY.

Those of you with tickets, plan on getting some money back in your account shortly.

Grim viewing. Some of these are 15-20k capacity venues - he didn't even sell out his hometown venue last year. Almost seems like the tour is being set up to fail - he hasn't been able to fill venues that size since Quarry.
 
God, this website really has reached a new low. Gay men are attracted to fascism because of the jack boots and fancy uniforms? What utter bollocks.

You could just as easily argue that throughout history gay men have been attracted to left wing causes. Or to the theatre. Or interior design. All nonsensical stereotypes.

Haters keep on hating. And talking bollocks.
 
To know the state of Morrissey's career completely independent of nonsense spewed on this site by both sides, by BOTH sides- all you have to do is go to Ticketmaster.com and have a look at the seat maps. 2 weeks out from the start (finish) of the ill-fated "Me and my big f***ing mouth" tour, and so many tickets remaining. SO MANY.

Those of you with tickets, plan on getting some money back in your account shortly.


:rolleyes:

Ok Skinny,
but if a :handpointright::guardsman::handpointleft: acolyte has one foot longer than the other should be entitled to free tix?:laughing:
 
Grim viewing. Some of these are 15-20k capacity venues - he didn't even sell out his hometown venue last year. Almost seems like the tour is being set up to fail - he hasn't been able to fill venues that size since Quarry.

He’s in an awkward situation here, I reckon he will play these shows even if the crowds are small. He could dump a load of tickets cheaply like they did for forest hills?
 
I think you meant “bile yer heid”, son.
...but I don’t expect your grasp of the Scottish tongue to be anywhere above that of your English, clown-shoes.

Quit yapping nonsense tats above your pay-grade, Sunshine. You look like a f***ing good.
Says the person who cant be arsed to make an account.you cant even make a complete sentence.see below.
quit yapping nonsense tats.
you look like a f***ing good.
schools start back on monday,hope you will be there.dont forget your din dins.
 
Grim viewing. Some of these are 15-20k capacity venues - he didn't even sell out his hometown venue last year. Almost seems like the tour is being set up to fail - he hasn't been able to fill venues that size since Quarry.

Maybe he still will but I'm surprised he's not releasing a single from the new album to hopefully generate some interest and at least steer the conversation back to the music. Or maybe he won't do that because he still considers this promotion for Californa Son?
 
Grim viewing. Some of these are 15-20k capacity venues - he didn't even sell out his hometown venue last year. Almost seems like the tour is being set up to fail - he hasn't been able to fill venues that size since Quarry.

The New Jersey venue holds 25000 and he's sold less than a couple of thousand seats, maybe loads of tickets have been sold for the lawn area and they will do away with the seating plan and let those people sit anywhere? Hollywood bowl still has at least 50% of tickets available as well.

Screenshot 2019-08-15 at 20.45.15.png
 
He’s in an awkward situation here, I reckon he will play these shows even if the crowds are small. He could dump a load of tickets cheaply like they did for forest hills?
I don't think he will. The venues could quite possibly pull the plug. Not to mention his ego.

Morrissey postpones tour due to convenient illness
 
The New Jersey venue holds 25000 and he's sold less than a couple of thousand seats, maybe loads of tickets have been sold for the lawn area and they will do away with the seating plan and let those people sit anywhere? Hollywood bowl still has at least 50% of tickets available as well.

View attachment 51696

Yeah - it needs to fill up dramatically or those gigs are write-offs. Who booked him for a 25k capacity gig, though? Is his manager living on another planet?
 
:rolleyes:

Ok Skinny,
but if a :handpointright::guardsman::handpointleft: acolyte has one foot longer than the other should be entitled to free tix?:laughing:

Johnny plays small capacity venues that he knows he can easily fill (1500-ish) adding more dates if the demand is there. Like most sensible artists who don't have their head permanently wedged in their arse. It's embarrassing to play to an enormous venue only 30% full - and even the skywriting stunt hasn't helped!
 
Yeah - it needs to fill up dramatically or those gigs are write-offs. Who booked him for a 25k capacity gig, though? Is his manager living on another planet?

Don't know but maybe they thought the covers album was going to be a big seller and therefore generate gig interest?
 
Don't know but maybe they thought the covers album was going to be a big seller and therefore generate gig interest?

Senseless, if so - nobody cares about a covers album and he didn't even bother to promote it properly.
 
And of course, you do realise that the bloke in your avatar spent a long weekend with his gay Jewish manager in 1963. It's been for a long time the subjecy of speculation.


John Lennon and Brian Epstein holiday in Barcelona, Spain
Sunday 28 April 1963 People 27 Comments

On this day Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr went on holiday to Santa Cruz, Tenerife, for a 12-day holiday.

At the same time John Lennon accepted an offer from Brian Epstein to accompany him to Barcelona, for a trip also lasting 12 days.

It was just three weeks after Lennon's wife Cynthia had given birth to their son Julian.

I was on holiday with Brian Epstein in Spain, where the rumours went around that he and I were having a love affair. Well, it was almost a love affair, but not quite. It was never consummated. But it was a pretty intense relationship.
It was my first experience with a homosexual that I was conscious was homosexual. He had admitted it to me. We had this holiday together because Cyn was pregnant, and I went to Spain and there were lots of funny stories. We used to sit in a cafe in Torremolinos looking at all the boys and I'd say, 'Do you like that one, do you like this one?' I was rather enjoying the experience, thinking like a writer all the time: I am experiencing this, you know. And while he was out on the tiles one night, or lying asleep with a hangover one afternoon, I remember playing him the song Bad To Me. That was a commissioned song, done for Billy J Kramer, who was another of Brian's singers.

John Lennon
All We Are Saying, David Sheff
The question of whether any sexual contact happened between Lennon and Epstein has been the subject of considerable speculation in the years since.

Cyn was having a baby and the holiday was planned, but I wasn't going to break the holiday for a baby and that's what a bastard I was. And I just went on holiday. I watched Brian picking up the boys. I like playing a bit faggy, all that. It was enjoyable, but there were big rumours in Liverpool, it was terrible. Very embarrassing.
John Lennon
Lennon Remembers, Jann S Wenner


Paul McCartney later suggested that Lennon agreed to the holiday in order to assert his authority within The Beatles.

Brian Epstein was going on holiday to Spain at the same time and he invited John along. John was a smart cookie. Brian was gay, and John saw his opportunity to impress upon Mr Epstein who was the boss of the group. I think that's why he went on holiday with Brian. And good luck to him, too – he was that kind of guy; he wanted Brian to know whom he should listen to. That was the relationship. John was very much the leader in that way, although it was never actually said.
Paul McCartney
Anthology
Although neither he nor Epstein spoke on record about the event, Lennon did apparently reveal to his former schoolfriend Pete Shotton what happened. Shotton quoted the exchange at length, and with characteristic frankness, in his 1983 memoir. This is perhaps the fullest published account which claims to shed light on the true nature of Lennon's Spanish encounter with Epstein.

I visited John at Aunt Mimi's a few days after his return to England. And when he started in about how much he had enjoyed Spain, I could hardly resist taking the piss out of him. "So you had a good time with Brian, then?" I smirked. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
I was somewhat taken aback when John didn't so much as crack a smile. "Oh, f***in' hell," he groaned. "Not you as well, Pete!"
"What do you mean, not me as well?"
"They're all f***ing going on about it."
It's OK, John. Don't take it so serious. I'm just joking, for Christ's sake."
"Actually Pete," he said softly, "Something did happen with him one night."
Now that wiped the grin right off my face. Had I even dreamed there might be any truth whatsoever to the rumors, I would never have made light of the subject in the first place. Still – as John surely knew – I would have stood by him, and let the rest of the world handle the business of passing moral judgement, even if he had just told me he'd committed murder. And John would surely have done the same for me.
Which, after all, is what true friendship is all about.
"What happened," John explained, "is that Eppy just kept on and on at me. Until one night I finally just pulled me trousers down and said to him: 'Oh, for Christ's sake, Brian, just stick it up me f***ing arse then.'
"And he said to me, 'Actually, John, I don't do that kind of thing. That's not what I like to do.'
"'Well,' I said, 'what is it you like to do, then?'
"And he said, 'I'd really just like to touch you, John.'
"And so I let him toss me off."
And that was that. End of story.
"That's all, John" I said. "Well, so what? What's the big f***ing deal, then?"
"Yeah, so f***ing what! The poor bastard. He's having a f***ing hard enough time anyway." This was in reference to the "butch" dockers who, on several recent occasions, had rewarded Brian's advances by beating him to a bloody pulp.
"So what harm did it do, then, Pete, for f***'s sake?" John asked rhetorically. "No harm at all. The poor f***ing bastard, he can't help the way he is."
Pete Shotton
John Lennon: In My Life
The Spanish holiday was later dramatised in the 1991 film The Hours And Times, starring David Angus and Ian Hart as Epstein and Lennon respectively.
Were you born in a barn? This is scarcely new news.
 

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